Zoe Hauptmann

Produced by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea: Hi, Zoe, welcome to the control podcast. Hi, thanks for having me. So great to see you. I've been really looking forward to having a chat about your work as an artist and also as an artistic director. And I'd firstly like to congratulate you on this year's Sydney women's international jazz festival program.

What a lineup. How was the festival? How are you feeling?

Zoe: It was great. It was really great. It only just finished. So I do feel a little like I've been run over by a truck, but in a good way. Yeah, it was fantastic this year. We had the biggest headliner we've ever had at the festival with Cecile McLaurin Savant.

And that was really exciting because same as we've never had someone kind of that big before. So. That one was very hectic and so it's just now I feel a bit like I need to lie down for a couple of days and then start working on next year.

Chelsea: To go back a step, can you tell us a little bit about the genesis of the festival and its mission?

Zoe: Yeah, sure. So the festival's, we're in our 12th year this year. I've been involved for the last eight years in my role as artistic director for SEMA. SEMA runs the Sydney International Women Jazz Festival and a lot of other programs as well. Since I've been on board, I guess my main kind of vision for it and just the sort of ethos behind it is we're not just, it's not just about presenting female and female identifying artists.

It's also about the whole back end of the festival. So we try and have female engineers, female led venues. and production roles, all that kind of stuff as well. And we're trying to create community and create change really, I guess in the industry. And that's always been something I've been very passionate about and have worked in gender equity for 20 years now.

So a really long time. So often if we will bring out a, an artist like a headlining kind of artists, we'll ask them to play with locals. So we'll try and program them with some female. Musicians here or that's not because of budget. That's not because of anything just because we're trying to create community trying to create pathways and just sort of give as many people access to these amazing artists when they come out as possible.

And so we have been seeing change. It's slow, but it is happening. And you know, I think things like this do make a difference and it's sort of baby steps, but it is, you know, we are sort of starting to see that come through compared, you know, when I was a bass player coming through, you know, 20 years ago or whatever.

There was, you could sort of count on your hand, the sort of other musos. I'd know them all. I'd be like, oh, there's Tamara Murphy and there's Fran Swin and there's Gianna's like, you sort of knew who they were and there weren't many. And now there are so many more incredible young female and female identifying artists coming through the scene through the improvised music scene.

And it's just so amazing to see for me to say, cause I'm like, wow, they're just, I just didn't have that when I was coming through. So I think, yeah, things like young women's jazz workshops and things like that. Sydney International Women's Jazz Festival. They really do make a difference. It's slow, but it's slow change, but it's still change in the, in the right direction.

It's important for us. It's not just about putting on shows and selling tickets. It's got a more than that. We're trying to do something just to get the balance the way it should be, I guess, a little bit more even. Yeah.

Chelsea: It's not just about audiences, is it? It's about other festivals and other bookers to discover artists they might not know of through a festival like this.

Zoe: That's right. I've always done things like, you know, we foster artists over many, many years. So we'll identify young artists that we think are going to be great. We might program them the first time they're in the festival. It might be like a free event or something like that in a duo form.

And then we'll slowly over the years, help them kind of grow their career. We'll sort of facilitate them playing in other states at other festivals. And we'll actively kind of champion these artists and we've seen things like that was say Zella Margossian is one of our lovely stories of SIMA. She started off in the young women's jazz workshops and now is like headlining festivals all over the world.

It's fantastic. You know, and she sort of started off, she'd play at the festival just in like a  trio of the support and then now she'll sell out headline shows and, and that's happened over, you know, many years, but there's a few artists like that, that we've kind of. We try and help and we don't just give them one gig, we'll be like, right, next year you're going to do this and we'll try and slowly you know, raise the profile of that artist help them develop audience, all that kind of stuff.

So it takes a lot of work. I guess we're kind of a producing body more than just you know, putting on shows, putting on tickets, like we'll actually produce shows, which is Takes a lot more effort, but I think then you get the payoff for the artists and for us It just like makes you feel really good When you see things like that you know, when they work and you see these artists getting, you know, sustainable careers in the improvised music industry, it's really cool.

Chelsea: I think that's a really important part of a festival, that there is unique collaborations and shows produced like that. Because if there isn't, to me, I feel like it's more of a gig guide than a festival.

Zoe: For me, that's something, commissioning work through SIMA as well. So last year, we commissioned Irohala and Jonathan Schwartz wrote this piece together. IHAs, the ECM artist from overseas. And then they debuted that actually at Melbourne. They didn't even debut the thing at our festival. They ended up playing at our festival as well at this women's festival. How, it was just the way the dates worked out that Melbourne was first, but we were like, that's fine. You know, the thing is that it's, you know, that we commissioned this new work and it's had a run and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So it's not just like a, a one off kind of thing. That's always, you know, I feel like if you invest in an artist, you want to see them get the most out of that and have the most kind of gigs and the most longevity from an album or a new work or whatever it is, new project.

It just takes a lot of work, but that's all right. It's a lot more effort than just, I guess, putting on. like just straight putting on gigs, but it's a lot more fulfilling. I find that's part of the, you know, this artistic director job that I really, really enjoy the most, I guess, is watching that happen over years.

Chelsea: Knowing that jazz is very much considered a niche sub-genre in Australia. Do you consider audience development and attracting a balance of mainstream audiences, non-typical jazz fans, as well as diehard jazz fans when you're putting the program together? Or do you think, no, I'm just booking jazz for the jazz lovers and stuff that I like.

Zoe: For me, I come from a really interesting kind of musical background because I grew up listening to jazz. Like I love jazz. When I was 10, I said to my dad, I only want to listen to 60s miles. I have heard that. I love that story. What a snob. Anyway, I was like, I hate bebop. It's too weird.

When I was like nine, I ended up loving people once my ears got around it. But yeah. And by high school, I'm listening to like Mahavishnu orchestra and all this kind of stuff. But at the same time we were listening. To like lots of pop and country and blues. And I started playing in blues bands when I was really young and funk.

And so we had a really, me and my brothers had a really eclectic kind of musical upbringing, which was really, really good. So for me, the umbrella of jazz is quite broad and as it is, I think probably in the States, you know, and a lot of the festivals over there, there's like, I see blues and country and all, you know, how it used to be, everyone kind of played together back in the day. And I kind of hear it like that still. So what would fit for me under the umbrella of improvised music is very, very, very broad, which I think does then translate to attracting quite a, you know, you can capture a lot of different types of audience members, which is cool. And I love that in a festival context because you can be quite adventurous, I think sometimes with the programming and.

You can, you can kind of push an audience a little bit, like I try not to ever underestimate an audience and, and you can program something that might, you know, be uncomfortable for them, but then you put it with something that's a little more palatable or something that might be more in there, you know, in their wheelhouse.

And it's like amazing what they can actually take and what they'll take out of that and come away going, Oh, I really liked that. Or I didn't like that or, and that's the beauty of a festival is that you can. You can kind of mix all this stuff in together, rather than when you're doing, like, if I'm doing a series, say, you have to be a little bit more, you can't be as adventurous, I don't think, as you can in a festival context.

Yeah, so I really enjoy that festival programming, because you can, that is the chances where I do get to kind of push the boundaries a bit, I guess. Programming wise to like the extremities of, of what, you know, what you could call improvised music.

Chelsea: So your career really started as a musician, specifically a bass player, and you're prolific as a touring and recording artist. So can you tell us what led you to working in programming?

Zoe: I like the community aspect of it. And I like bringing people together. And I've always, I've just always loved that ever since I started playing. You know, we started this regular gig in Sydney that ran for 12 years every week. And it was a real hang, you know, and it was just cause we wanted to hang out with people and have everyone come and see the music and it was family friendly and all ages and we'd have people come and sit in and jam and, and it's not easy to keep a regular gig going in Sydney.

So that was quite an achievement. We did that for 12 years. And very early on, I was actually artistic director for the Jazz Groove Association. When I was in like my twenties and we put on a couple of festivals at the opera house where we brought out internationals and I had no really idea what I was doing, but I was really lucky to be mentored by some incredible artistic directors like Peter Regineski, who was one of the founders of SIMA and Adrian Jackson, founder of Wangaratta Jazz Festival.

Adrian and both Adrian and Peter. Help me a lot. Just learning the ropes of, you know, what you do. And I, I found pretty quickly that I loved it. I really enjoyed doing it. And I loved putting things on and, and it's a lot of work and you don't really get paid for it, but you get paid a little bit, but not a lot compared to the amount of effort it is.

But I just, I don't know, there's something about putting on a show and putting on an event and then seeing it happen. And seeing all the people come together and the artists, what it does for the artists and the audience, I just absolutely love that. There's something about it that's really special and I love being part of that whole process.

And I always have. It's very funny, like, even up the coast here, like I live up on the central coast now, and if I have any down time at all, I've started putting these concerts on in my backyard. Which I've called, like, music is an open sky and people come and we get about 80 people here. They all pay a little bit and a program like artists from Sydney, it's all the mix of sort of stuff.

But yeah, it's like, I can't seem to stop myself, nothing to do. I'm like, Oh, I might put on a gig at the wherever. You know, I just love it. I love it when the actual event happens and you go and it's so great, like it's so fun. Music's just the best. You know, you know what it's like, like it's just so good and it brings everyone together and I've sort of always done it anyway.

Chelsea: And it's another aspect of your creativity.

Zoe: I mean, I do spend a lot of time putting the programs together. Like it takes me ages. I faff about for a really long time, like thinking of how it's all going to fit together and, you know, That it's got balance and it's got diversity and all that kind of stuff.

Like I want it to be, I want it as an overall program to be really cohesive always. And so it does take a while. Like I don't just. Throw things together. It'll take me like a year, you know I've already started working on the Women's Festival for next year and it's just takes us such a long time to pull these things together

Chelsea: Especially with international artists as you were saying, you know, it's it is four or five years in advance for some particular artists it does take a long time.

Zoe: and you know you do want to give people the best chance when they're here to have you know, we're quite far away from the rest of the world.

So when they're here, you want them to have a few gigs, not just coming out for like one show just so it makes sense for them as well. I mean, I just love it. I love putting on gigs and I think I probably always will, even if I end up just, it's always in my backyard, there'll be some, I'll be doing something.

Chelsea: I want to come. That sounds amazing.

Zoe: Yeah, it is really amazing actually. The last one we did an echidna showed up randomly. Which was so cool. That's special. I know. I was like, I've never seen an echidna here. The seven years I've lived here and it showed up on the gig day. Wow.

Chelsea: What do you think of the transferable skills as a musician that support you as an artistic director?

Zoe: Hmm. That's an interesting one because maybe, I mean, I was a band leader as well. I used to run my own bands. I think it's just like a leadership thing or communication, that kind of thing, if you've got that. But then not all musicians have an inclination to want to do that. So I don't know that it is necessarily, if you're a muso, you can do this or you'd have an interest in it necessarily.

So I'm not exactly sure what the transferable skills are. I guess it's like maybe a bass player thing more about, you know, just holding everyone together. And I don't know, I haven't really thought about that before, but I don't know that it's necessary. Cause I know some musicians, you know, some musicians do it, you know, and there are a lot of musicians who have that.

That vibe and they want to do it and they, you know, and I don't know that that's because they're musicians or it's just their, that type of personality that they want to put on shows and start these sort of gigs and stuff. And you know, and then there's lots that don't, there's lots that are just, they just want to play like that's all they want to do or they'll teach, you know, do teaching and things like that.

Chelsea: I think there's a lot of musicians too that would never even consider that's an option for them to do. You know, there's a bit of a binary idea in. music culture that you're either a performer or you become a teacher. You know, a lot of people, when they go to uni, people will say to them, Oh, you're doing a music degree. Oh, you can become a teacher.

Zoe: But then there are people that there are those musos who put on shows, you know, band leaders, then they'll put on their own gigs and they'll do that stuff. It's like, that's the start of it. I think it's when you start doing that and then you get the idea, like you're dealing with a venue, you're dealing with ticketing, you're dealing with all that kind of stuff.

It's like. Or pulling a tour together. Like lots of musos do that, like they'll organise a tour and that's the same sort of thing. That's basically what I do on like a smaller scale. It's like you're doing the same thing, you're doing it for one band rather than lots of bands. But it's that, sort of, I guess the start of it.

Like the Jazz Group Association used to have a rotating roster of artistic directors so you'd do a two-year stint and then the next lot would come in and the outgoing artistic directors would choose the next ones and it was always musicians. It was a musician run organisation, so it was pretty crazy because, you know, we didn't have a lot, the best admin skills at times, but it was an amazing kind of opportunity to learn that, those sort of skills.

And it was just a one gig, it was a regular gig, it was like every Tuesday night sort of gig. But it was really cool, like I learnt so much doing that, and then doing the festival that at that time was associated with the organisation. But I've always thought that there's a gap for something like that again, for someone to do, you know, start something up like that so musos can get a go of doing it.

And the ones that seem inclined, because there are lots of musicians in Sydney, I'm sure it's the same in Melbourne, that are putting on these regular gigs and doing this sort of stuff. And they've got that kind of, they, they want to do it and they're interested in it. It'd be great to have someone like that come in and work.

In an organization like SIMA or Melbourne Jazz or something like that, and kind of do it with the support of a, of an organization behind them.

Chelsea: So you've told us how much you love commissioning, you enjoy putting the festival program together. What is it about being an artistic director that you don't like?

Zoe: I guess sometimes it's when things, like things go wrong. Things always go wrong. But it's when you've pulled a program together and then Often, you know, you'll lose something, you'll lose an act for whatever reason. And for me, because I spend so long putting it all together in a way that I think it makes sense, that sometimes just throws me for a six because I'm like, now none of this other stuff makes sense.

And then, so last minute trying to replace acts or change acts, stuff like that. That's really, I find that really hard and it takes me ages to then reprogram. a certain thing because I'm like what's gonna fit what's gonna make it all make sense now because it's all like this little little web so that's hard.

During COVID, the worst thing was having to ring people up and tell them their gigs was cancelled. That was horrible because, you know, that's the opposite of what I'm supposed to be doing. It's ringing people up and saying, Hey, do you want to do a gig? Not that your gigs been cancelled. So that was really hard.

Chelsea: And then  there was just that period of rescheduling dates all the time. And I felt like some kind of EA or travel agent where all I was doing was finding out dates or wasn't programming anything new for this massive period of time because we were just trying to. Find new dates for all the things that we canceled.

Zoe: Yeah, that's right. That's sometimes it when the admin stuff that needs to happen, but it's not as creative, that can be hard when that gets backed up. And that was the thing after COVID. Cause there was so much of that, that was just all that reshuffling, rescheduling venues were all booked, all that kind of stuff was really, is really hard.

And that's just challenges that come with it all the time. For me, I guess the main thing is just workload. Like if I, if I have my workload, like I've got a very busy life. With my touring, because mostly I'm a bass player, that's my main job. Like I do, that's mostly what I do, is play bass. And I do SIMA two days a week.

So it's not a lot, you know, well, it's supposed to be two days a week. I end up doing more than that. But, you know, and I've got three kids and all that. And so sometimes it's just, like in times like this when the festival's on, and that, you know, and then I'm still touring and doing all that. That's hard if the balance gets out, which I've done a bit this year I must admit.

Like I've been doing a bit too much this year. So next year I'm trying to be a bit more strict about what I do, but that can be hard and that's not necessarily because of the artistic director thing. That's just me saying yes to too many things that I probably shouldn't say yes to. So just time management, that kind of thing.

And as soon as you throw kids in the mix and I mean, we've been trying to get together for this. And then I had one of my kids, you have a time allocated. It's like, right, we're going to do it now. And then someone gets gastro. And then all of the rest of them get gastro, and then you lose however many days, and it's like, well, those days I was supposed to be learning music for this tour, so now when am I going to do that?

And then I've got the festivals on, and so when am I going to, like, there's just not enough time sometimes to get. Everything done that you need to get done.

Chelsea: Yeah, without burning out, like how do you also look after yourself when you're looking after other people and a festival and a band?

Zoe: That's right. Well, I've started up getting up really early in the morning and going for a surf like first thing, which has been really good for me. Even I'm not a very good surfer, but I'm very enthusiastic. And even if I get in the water for like half an hour, I find it makes such a difference to my day, my mental, you know, like by the time, like this time of day, usually I'd be like, Oh, you know, really tired.

You know, wanting to eat chocolate and stuff, but if I've surfed for some reason I'm fine. It's great So I'm really trying to stick with that. So I think exercising is really good because it does give you more energy Yeah,

Chelsea: I know. It's a pretty amazing like that, isn't it? Just got to make yourself do it.

Zoe: That's the hard thing It's just hard to actually get out the door Once I'm there, I'm fine, but it's like, okay, come on Let's do it.

Chelsea: Especially in winter when it's cold, it's like, don't want to get out of bed.

Zoe: Yeah. Putting on a wet, wet suit is awful.

Chelsea: I'm changing track. I would love to talk more about your work as a musician.

You have a reputation of having an incredible work ethic and professionalism. You've recorded on more than 80 albums as a session player. Can you tell us how you prepare for a recording session and how you approach bringing your personality? into other artists recordings.

Zoe: Yeah. So with sessions, it depends like often with sessions, actually, I don't like listening to demos too much before for that very reason that I kind of, if I listen too much, if they, it depends what sort of demo they have, if they've had a demo, what, you know, cause it's so different recording, depending who you're recording for and all that kind of stuff.

But I often like going in and like, I'll listen to the song a bit. I try, try mostly to lyric content. I love, I love, like, singer songwriters. I just always have. I'm like, yeah, they're amazing. And I love trying to, with a bass, and just trying to help the story, help the story along. And so, I try not to listen too much to if they've had a bass put down or whatever, already, to that, because it can get stuck in your head, and then it's really hard to bring your own thing to it.

So I just try and listen mostly to the lyric content and then sort of go from there and do it in the studio. It depends how much time you've got as well, like it can be so varied, like with some things you've got so much time and it's amazing so you can really get deep into it in the studio. And then other things, if it's like, Oh, we want to try and get three tracks down in the day, you kind of need a chart or something, you need something.

So sometimes I'll chart something out quickly. Sometimes the artist charts out things for me, like it's really varied, like. depending on who you're recording for. We've got a studio under the house and my husband is a drummer and he does a lot. So that, he's always recording like all the time. He records for everyone.

And so we do a bit of bass and drum stuff down there, which is really fun. So we'll record together. I love doing that, because the commute is amazing. We just walk downstairs and it's done. And you know, we can get really good drum and bass sounds down there, so it's really, we love doing that. We're going to try and do a bit more of that, hopefully.

But yeah, a lot of the stuff I do bass playing wise is live stuff, like, you know, touring and, you know, that's mostly what I do. And I love that. It's always something I've done alongside jazz playing.

Chelsea: You've worked with some incredible artists and been involved in some amazing collaborations. I've heard you say that your shows with Neil Finn and Paul Kelly were highlights and how much you love working with Missy Higgins and also the symphony orchestras.

I'd love to ask you, what do you think makes the ultimate gun for hire?

Zoe: There's so many people who have. the talent and can do it like as far as can play parts and do the thing. Obviously that's part of it and when you're playing with artists like you know say like when I'm playing with Ian Moss it's really choppy playing like I've got to be able to do bass solos and all this kind of like it's pretty technical kind of playing and then with Missy it's like a really different kind of thing it's like a really you know it's all about her lyric and just basically not wrecking her song you know just making it grow and it's all about her and the, and the vocals. And so it's very genre specific. And I guess that's, again, comes back to the thing for me. I grew up listening to all these different genres and legitimately love them a lot. And so I've done country, you know, I recorded on Bill Chambers album and I love country music and I love like pop and I love rock and funk and all this different stuff.

And so I think. Having listened a lot to a genre that you're trying to play is obviously is going to make a massive difference. I sing as well, so being able to sing is really good and that's often a thing for me. When I, for whatever reason, can't do a gig, like I got COVID or whatever, sometimes they have to get like two people to replace me because to have someone who sings and plays is like not as easy to find people.

So, and I love singing. I've been singing a lot now for years and years and years and have been lucky enough to work with a whole heap of incredible singers who've kind of given me free singing lessons on gigs. So I just ask for tips all the time from them. So I think definitely singing and playing.

Everyone should do that. It's really good. It makes it more fun too. It's more fun on the gig because you get to do more things. and just being chill. Like, having a good attitude. That's a big one. For sure. Because the majority of the time, you're just hanging out. You know, you play for like an hour and a half.

And the rest of the time You're just hanging out at the airport, hanging out in the car, hanging out backstage. So much hang. That was actually what I found really funny after COVID. My first gig back, I had this gig with Ian Moss. Where were we? It was somewhere out, you know, we had to catch a couple of planes and whatever to get there like remote Queensland or something like that.

And I just forgot, like, I was just like, what the heck? Like, we, you know, we travel for so long and then we play for like an hour and a half. And that's it. Like, it's such an odd job in some ways for that. Because there's so much, there's so much traveling. And then the time you're actually doing the thing that you're there for is so short.

It's not even 5%. Not even. And it, but it's so fun. That's the thing. It's like when you do that hour or whatever it is. It's so great and it's so fun and the audience loves it, but I started getting all these things like getting freaked out about my carbon footprint and like, it's like, just, I'm like, should we be doing this?

I don't know, like after COVID, spending so long traveling to play for such a short amount of time. Then you see the audiences and especially in those remote kind of areas of Australia. It's like yeah, we should be doing this

Chelsea: Yeah, and we're so grateful as audiences. We're so grateful that people come all this way

Zoe: I know it's amazing like and it really is and especially that was great coming back to shows live shows Just seeing how much everyone have missed it was really really kind of powerful.

I remember that first Blues Fest, the Blues Fest that was all a really Australian lineup, it was amazing. It was like, I was playing with Missy, Annie, and that one, and it was like Midnight Oil and Crowder House, like all this really Aussie heavy lineup, and the audiences were just like ecstatic. Like they just were loving it.

It was so, it was such a good feeling. And it was just like, I love that. I love that live experience. It's very addictive, I think.

Chelsea: flipping that, what do you think makes the ultimate band leader?

Zoe: Again, just being calm and, you know, relaxed and chill because this is the thing you're at work really. And you're hanging out with these people for ages.

So if everyone's kind of like having a nice time and, you know, I think I've been lucky enough to get to work with some incredible. Band leaders, both Missy and Ian are just] fantastic and like Neil Finn and Paul Kelly were both incredible. Like everyone, you know, they're just really nice people and, and that sort of filtered through everyone, like all the crew, everyone, you become a little family, you know, a little touring family and, and it's really nice, you know, and you sort of look forward to going away with them, which is good.

So it's like, Oh, I can't wait to see, you know, everyone in the, in the touring family that hang out with them and, and it's relaxing and really good now that I've got kids. I'm like quite relaxing when you go away because you, you know, you get to stay in a hotel room and there's no one else in there with you.

Chelsea: Yeah, I totally get it. It feels like a holiday.

Zoe: Oh my goodness. It really is sometimes. And even getting on the plane with no kids, it's like, Oh yes, I can just sit here for an hour and a half and not do, you know, no, it's

Chelsea: like, I can't believe I'm getting paid for this. This is the most relaxing thing I've done for ages.

Zoe: I'm lucky, I work for some really amazing, like, really incredible kind of people, and are legitimate friends now, you know. I mean, I've been working for Missy for eight years now, so it's quite a long time, and, so I guess I'm a session player, but I'm sort of, like, I've been in these bands for such a long time.

I've been with Ian for five years, and you sort of end up with these people and you just kind of stay with them.

Chelsea: But thinking back, have you had any experiences with a band leader where it was so bad that you went, I don't want to work in this project. I mean, you don't have to name names, but I'm just trying to ask, like, what are the things to avoid, like bad charts or disorganized rehearsals?

Zoe: I mean, I don't use charts for gigs like that. You don't use charts. Like you just learn it. But I guess the thing is, for me, it's like, if they're grumpy. You know, or they're shouting at people or anything like that. Like I can't handle that. I just don't like being around that. I'd sort of take it on and get really anxious myself.

So if there's any of that kind of vibe, I just sort of steer clear. Really. When I was younger, I guess you don't realize like sometimes and you get caught in these situations where it's, it can even be like management or whatever, but the way that they deal with you is not professional, really. You know, it's all, it's just a bit aggressive.

There is an element of that in the music industry. And I've been lucky enough to have avoided that for years and years and years. I just haven't worked for anyone that's like that. So, but yeah, it's just, if it's hard work, it's like that same thing with people, I guess, a lot of people who have. Regular jobs that would be same in an office setting or whatever if there's someone who's passive aggressive or whatever that kind of thing like you'd want to sort of steer clear of those people, you know, because you don't want to be around that every day in your work life. It's not good for your health and you know, and everyone has their moments. I mean, when you're traveling a lot, you know, everyone has a moment where they're like, they lose it or for whatever reason, but it's like a family and it's just like, come on, you're okay. Let's work it out or what's up or, you know, cause everyone's got their life going on as well, you know, things are happening to them in their lives that are, you know, so we all sort of help deal with those sort of things as they come up as a group and, and when with each other, when you're friends with everybody.

Chelsea: Yeah, I think people just have to be aware of what energy they're bringing into those spaces and how. Their vibe can affect everybody else in the room.

Zoe: Yeah, and we're there to have a good time, like, you know, at the end of the day, we're going around playing music for people. So it's supposed to be fun, you know, it's like a fun thing.

We're very lucky to be able to do that as a job. And so I always feel incredibly lucky. With the people I'm touring with, you know, like we all love swimming, like a lot of the people love swimming. So we'll often go, you know, when we're out and about somewhere, we'll be like, where could we go for a swim?

Like take us somewhere fun. And we'll try and do fun things like that if we have time as well. So that's really fun doing that with a band because that kind of you bond more. Do little adventures here and there. It's great. So can you

Chelsea: talk to us about how you might negotiate fees for tours and shows?

Because when you are friends and you have that kind of relationship with artists and band leaders, it can be really awkward having those kind of conversations. So do you have any advice for. How to ensure that you still get the gig and maintain that great relationship, but you're making sure that you're paid well and treated fairly.

Zoe: Yeah. So that, I mean, the fees across the music industry, they do vary a lot from artist to artist. And so usually with any of the artists like I work with, you're always dealing with management. And so when I'm dealing with management, I just try and be really professional and really up front. And if, if I'm happy with the fees, great.

If there's something where for me, it's like, look, it's not working for me. You don't want to be on a gig and feeling like, oh, like, you know, it's actually sort of costing me money. Like I don't, you know, I would have had to pay for babysitters for the kids and all this kind of stuff. And if you're feeling like that on the gig, that's when I always say to musos, maybe that's a time you could just say, look, is there any room to move on the budget?

Could we look at increasing the fees a little bit or whatever and if you have it like a conversation like be quite open then I've that's what I've always done and it's had you know good response And so it's not like I need to get paid this amount of money It's you're trying to be like look. This is where I am with this, I would love doing this, but it's hard, you know, for these reasons.

Is there any room to move? Because it does vary a lot. I always look at artists as well. I mean, I guess I've got a bit of an insight because I put on shows. So I understand their costs, you know, and I try and look at the size room they're playing in. And so if they're playing like little rooms, then you're not going to get paid the same as if you're playing for an artist that's playing in like, the big rooms and in things like that because they're just not going to be selling as many tickets and they're just not going to be making as much money so i try and keep that in mind as well but it's funny i do get calls from a lot of musicians because i've worked for so many artists all the time they're always like hey what do you think i should get paid for this or i seem to be the person that everyone calls up for some reason about that stuff which is cool you know i don't know I guess I'm just, I just, I'm always just very open about it and go, yeah, that's, you know, and if you're happy with the fees, then great, you know, then that's good.

But it's, yeah, it's when you start feeling like, oh, this is a bit hard for me to do it for this money. Like, it's not good to be feeling like that when you're on a gig.

Chelsea: Yeah, you don't want to be bringing any resentment to the stage, thinking, Oh, I'm getting ripped off or I'm getting exploited. Yeah

Zoe:, exactly. And if you're feeling that at all, and I think everyone's been in that position, you know, they know how that feels. And so it's like, okay, got to kind of do something about this. It's either like you stop doing the gig or you try and have a conversation with someone about it. And. Because there's no point going on feeling like that, you know, you just bring bad vibes to the gig.

That's when I always think is the time to kind of maybe have those conversations if you're feeling that way. And that can happen for all different reasons, you know, it just depends kind of what you're happy with. Because there isn't really a standard, there's sort of standards, prices really, but it varies a lot.

Like it really does, it's the, you know, we're not like a regulated kind of industry

Chelsea: No, and those live performance Australia award rates don't exactly apply to a lot of contemporary music situations. You know, they're kind of three hour call. It's a bit more classical music orientated. It doesn't really account for things like set breaks.

You know, a lot of venues want two 45 minute sets or something like that. So how is that meant to work within a three hour call? All that kind of stuff.

Zoe: Exactly. And then sometimes on tours as well, they'll give you like, they'll be like, this three week period will give you this much money. So it won't even be broken down into gigs.

You don't like that can happen.

Chelsea: Yeah. It's like a buyout fee.

Zoe: Yeah. There's so much variation. So it sort of just comes down to what you're willing to do and if you're happy to do it. And obviously not undercutting people. That's the other thing. Like if fees are really low, I just am straight away, like no way, because there is a certain standard.

That we need to all adhere to because people should pay for music, audiences should pay for music. We work our butts off for years and years and years to get, to be able to play like we do. And it's like, you know, it should be valued. So you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't ask a plumber to come and do something for free.

So it's like that thing as well. That whole, you know, there's all that part of music industry too, which is hard, that exposure thing. Yeah, it is tricky though.

Chelsea: Yeah, I know there's no real easy answer to that question, which is why it was, I wanted to ask you.

Zoe: Yeah, and a lot of younger musos do struggle with that. It's sort of easy for me now, but I understand when you're young coming up, it is confusing. It can be really confusing as to what is normal and what's not normal. What you can ask for and what you, what is pushing too far and all that kind of thing. So I'm always very happy to talk with musos about that stuff or just at least give my perspective on it.

I do have a lot of younger ones often call me up just to ask those sort of questions.

Chelsea: Yeah, so do I. But even people in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It doesn't even matter what age you are. There's always a conversation where happening like, Hey, I've just been asked to do this gig. What do you think I should be charging for this travel?

Zoe: Yeah, that's what, that happens with me. We've got a little bass player gang of like people who do all this stuff. It's like, what'd you get for that? Like, what do you reckon? Is this right? And it's like, yeah, nah, or yeah, or nah, or that's good. Or everyone talks to each other, which is good.

Chelsea: I think. What about superannuation? Is that something that comes up in some of the chats? Cause we know from the reports. that came out during the lockdown era of the pandemic, that so many musicians didn't have more than 10k worth of super. So people couldn't access super money. So the industry is talking quite a lot about superannuation.

Is that something that you're ensuring that you get from touring? How do you factor that into those conversations?

Zoe: All the artists I work for pay it. They should, you know, if you do over a certain amount of gigs, they should do that. And all the ones I work for do and always have, which is cool. But I am finding it now even more and more, like when you do even sessions here and there even if it's a little bit, like people are definitely, like they're catching up because people will go like, hey, I've got to pay you super.

And whereas, you know, even five years ago, that wasn't really a thing. So for some things you'd get it and other things you wouldn't, obviously those regular kind of employers you do. And always I think it's good probably for musos just to do, you know, even if it's a little bit, like contribute to your own super is what I was always told.

And it's like, even if you're doing just a little bit here and there it can end up making a difference. But I think most musos wouldn't have heaps of super really.

Chelsea: So when you get to a certain level like yourself and you are getting a lot of phone calls or messages to play on a bunch of different projects, and you do have a lot of other things you're balancing, how do you decide what is right for you to take on?

Zoe:  Well, this year I was a bit, I didn't go so well with that. Like I said yes to everything. So I've been working, I was working like seven days a week for months this year. Like it was crazy, you know. But then everything, It was good. So everything I got asked to do, like I really wanted to do, and it was really good.

And that's when it's hard because you go like, you don't want to say no, you'd want to say yes to everything. And I think it's after COVID as well, I was back in that thing of like, Oh, I've got to say yes. Got to say yes to everything. Cause that's how you get to where you, that's how you get up to the top.

It's like, you say yes to everything. You always do everything and you work your butt off to get up there. And then you can start saying no to some things and the phone will still ring. But it's like I went back into that default of like, Oh, I've got to say yes to absolutely everything anyone asked me to do.

Like I have my two main gigs that I do, which is Ian and Missy. And then there's a few other people I work for, like sometimes like Phil Jamison or Justine Clark or people like this that I love working for, but it's not like heaps of gigs, it's little gigs here and there and then other things come in and I just try and look in the diary and just work out, okay, I've got to have some downtime or time at home with the kids.

Like I can't be touring all year, which is what's happened this year, accidentally. Like I've just basically stopped now. Or even, even I'm saying that I've stopped now. I'm away every weekend until Christmas. So I haven't stopped now. I don't know why I said that. I had this last weekend off. Except for Friday night.

I had a gig. But the rest of the time, I don't know. I've been working my, I don't know. See what I mean? Like, I'm probably not the best person to answer this question. Cause I say yes to too many things, but 2024 is going to be different.

Chelsea: I'm going to do a follow up episode and see how that's working out.

Zoe: My friends are like, you say this every year, you say this every year that you're going to say no to more, and then you end up doing it. It's just hard when it's all good things that you want to do. Cause I'm like, Oh, that'd be so fun. But yeah, you need some time at home as well. I've realized can't just be traveling around all the time when you've got three kids, it's like frowned upon.

Chelsea: Well, they're also learning independence, resilience.

Zoe: That's what I tell myself. Great role model as a working mama. Yeah. Oh, well, I started taking them now they're a bit older. I've started taking them a bit, which is fun. Like I'll take one of them and they'll come and they love that. So they'll come and come to the gigs.

And it was so cute. I took my eldest Albie to, I was doing this red hot summer tour earlier this year and I was playing with Missy and I was also playing with E. M. Moss and Troy Casadale. And Albie was just like. He just set up, like they set him up and and Missy's son like at the front of the stage. They had like dinner and then the promoters giving them ice cream and they were like set right in the front of the stage watched all of us. They watched Paul Kelly's band. They watched everything like backstage with all the bands and they just had the time of their lives. It was like so cute. I'm like wow you don't know how lucky you are these kids getting to see all this amazing music and get to meet all these artists and you'll never forget that,

Chelsea: you know, like my mum wasn't a professional actress, but she was involved in an independent theater company when I was a kid.

So I spent a lot of my time at theater rehearsals backstage, hanging with all these really eccentric actors and writers and seeing people doing their makeup. And they'd all give me these offhand tips on all kinds of things.

Zoe: They love it. Yeah. They love it. The kids love it. And they've been around it. But since they were really little, like I started touring with Albie, he was seven weeks old when I went back on tour and would just take him with me.

So the first year he was just with me all the time. He was amazing. Like I could just give him to anyone and you know, while I'm on stage, I'd be like, here you go. So he was always very confident. And my other two, the twins are like that as well. They're very confident with other adults and it's kind of really lovely to see like they do have that kind of resilience.

And I think it's been being around lots of different places and. Actually I remember Neil Finn once said that to me when I was touring with him and he was like, you're going to have kids. It was before I had kids. And I was like, oh yeah, I think probably I will. And I was like, I don't know what I'd do about touring.

And he goes, just take them, just take them with you. And I'm like, yeah, you're Neil Finn. It's easy for you to say, take your kids with you. For me it was really scary because I was like, I'm a side person. And I didn't really see examples of women. Who were doing that, who, you know, at that time, this is like 10 years ago, who, who had, you know, a baby on tour.

So I was a bit scared. I was a bit like, I wonder if anyone's going to hire me anymore. And this was before I was playing for Missy or then I did a tour with Katie Noonan and I did a tour with Justine Clark and those women were amazing. And they're like, it's okay, you bring the baby, just bring it. And then it was fine.

It ended up being fine, but I was like pretty scared. I was, I was sort of like, this could be it. So this could be the end of my career, like who's going to hire the bass player with a baby, like, when they could hire some other dude that's got no kids and, whereas I'm coming with all this stuff, like the double bass and the baby and the electric bass and the pram and the, you know, it's like a logistical nightmare, but yeah it was cool, it ended up being fine and then since then I've had a couple of other really good friends, they've done it, you know, and it's now, I think it's becoming more normalized, like I see a lot of women now touring with kids and Yeah, back then I remember there was a few, but they were all the singers, they were like the lead singers.

It was like their gig. So they were going, it's fine Zoe, you can do it. I'm like, yeah, but your name is on the poster. Like you're the per, you're the lead person. Like it's a bit different for a session muso, the side person bringing all this stuff. But I was just really lucky that I had these incredible people I was working for.

And that was so supportive of me and really helped me get back in, in, into it like that. Very early at seven weeks, maybe a bit too early, but you know, it was fine. It was good. Yeah, that's brilliant.

Chelsea: I heard that when you were contemplating leaving Canberra, where you earned your music degree, you were considering whether or not to move to Melbourne or Sydney as your options.

And one of your mentors suggested that you should consider moving to where the drummers are that you want to play with. And I loved that as a piece of advice. Is that advice that you have been giving to other musicians? And secondly, where are the good drummers now? Because you chose Sydney. Are they still in Sydney?

Zoe: I did. Yeah. Back then I chose Sydney because there was a few drummers at the time like Hamish Stewart and Warren Trout. And there were all these drummers at that time. And funnily enough, my now husband, not that I knew him, but he was the first drummer I jammed with when I moved to Sydney with my brother.

And we went and had a jam. This friend of ours had said Go on. You've got to meet these other musos. You're going to love them. They love all the same stuff as you. And so we went and had a jam and it was, it's unbelievable. It was me and my brother, Ben, and we were jamming with Aaron Flower and Evan Monell, who were still like, I ended up marrying Evan.

and Aaron Flowers, one of my very best friends. And he lives down the road from me here in the coast. And yeah, it's just amazing. So I did make the right choice going to Sydney, I think. But yeah, that was at the time that that was where the drummers that I wanted to play with were. Now they're all over the place.

I mean, one of the drummers I play with lives in Brisbane and another one lives in Melbourne. So Missy's drummer's in Melbourne, Lee Fisher. He's fantastic. I love playing with him and, you know, so there's sort of drummers everywhere.

Chelsea: Do you think location affects music and the scene? Do you think there's a Sydney jazz sound versus a Melbourne jazz sound?

Zoe: Yeah, I do. I think all of Australia. Like, I've always thought that. Like, it's different, you know, because it's about, I think it's about influences. And the, and the, you know, when you're coming up learning, you're influenced by teachers or people around you. And so, by default, you sort of get these little sounds happening.

So, you know, in Melbourne, people like Julian Wilson, or Mags, or people like this, people, or Andrea, you know, people want to sound, or learn from them. And they end up sounding a little bit like them, and eventually go off on their own way. But it makes these kind of pockets very subtle. thing, but it makes these pockets of sound or like when Tinkler, Scott Tinkler was in Melbourne or, you know, and in Sydney, it's like Simon Barker is quite an influential drummer who, you know, you'll have these people come up onto him and they sort of sound a little bit like him.

Like they have their own sound, but they, they have that kind of feeling about playing. And so I do think it's, I don't think it's because of, I think it's just because of the people that you're around, you know, and in jazz people are very influenced by other players and. That's kind of cool. I've always loved that, you know, that you can kind of hear the different sounds and go, Oh, that sounds a bit more Melbourne jazz or Sydney jazz or Brisbane or Perth.

You know, the Perth guys have a sound, you know, I think different again. And I mean, I just love Australian jazz in general is my very favorite. I just love it so much because I grew up, as I said before, listening to so much. American jazz and European jazz and stuff like that. And then once I started listening to Australian jazz, I was just like, Oh, this is it.

And I think I was about, I must've been, must've been like the end of high school or something like that. Like when I first got into the prep course and I started listening to bands like Wanderlust and Ten Pound Invention and Bernie McGann and all these bands like that. And I was just like, in love. I was just like, this is it.

This is, I love this so much. It's like my favorite, favorite, favorite thing. And then, you know. When I moved to Sydney, getting to see things like Phil Slater Quintet all the time, and you know, in Melbourne, like Julian Wilson and Mags and all those guys, it was just like far out. I just loved it.

Chelsea: What do you think the big difference is with Australian jazz versus the sounds coming out of Europe or the States?

Zoe: I think it's got a bit more raucousness to it, maybe? It's not, it's like, it's hard to describe, like I find it so hard to describe music in words, like, but it definitely has a sound, like it definitely has a different sound. And I feel like, and it's really good. Like that's always the thing I think, like it's so good, the musicianship is just insane, you know.

And so I think that if we could get it out more, like I don't know the rest of the world is so aware of Australian jazz and that we have a sound and it has been around for so long, like we've been making jazz here for so long, like such a long time. And there's this great history and lineage of, you know, improvisers in Australia and That's the thing that I sometimes think, like, if the rest of the world was kind of aware.

Because you know, you have that, oh, like, there's the American jazz sound and euro, euro jazz. I mean, there's, of course, within that, that's very generalised. But within those, you know, sections, there's lots of variation or whatever. But I definitely think that Australia has a unique sound, and we don't sound like anywhere else.

You know, the music that gets made here. And I, I think it's the best. I think I'm biased, but I don't know. I just love it. It's my favorite, is the Australian jazz.

Chelsea: SIMA’s flagship Young Women in Jazz workshop program created by Sandy Evans is celebrating 21 years, which is incredible. You've been involved in this program for a long time.

Can you chat to us a little bit about the program? Why do you think it works and how has it sustained for this long?

Zoe: Yeah. So this is, I mean, this is really amazing, this program and Sandy is incredible. So I was actually involved in this since it started, like it's inception. And so there was three teachers, it was Sandy and Kathy Harley on piano and then me.

And I was like 20, you know, like I just moved to Sydney and Sandy I met Sandy through Miroslav Bukovski and who was helping me a lot. And Jonathan Schwartz were helping me a lot when I first moved to Sydney. And Sandy was like, right, I want you to come and teach at this thing. And I was at the time like, why, you know, half the people are older than me.

Like, or I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I didn't really get it. You know, and I started teaching at this, these workshops. And and then slowly I was like, this is like amazing. Like, it's incredible. And we saw. Over the years that I've been involved, you'd have people come through, like, so the person Alex Silva, this incredible trombonist, is now running the course, and she went through the course, you know, back in the day, because it's been going so long now.

You've had all these people go through the course, then go through the con, and now they're out, and they're leaders in the jazz scene now. People like Ellen Kirkwood and, you know, Zella Margosian, who I mentioned before, like, and they've come through this course. I just, it's just amazing and it's incredible how something as simple as that has made such a difference because it's just like a pathway.

So we get people coming in when they're young or younger, but then it was like, we're very open as well. It's like, if people want to do it and they're older musicians, we let them like, we'll sort of let anyone do it who wants to do it. You know, often it'll be that thing of like, you'll, you'll teach someone and you go, Hey, have you thought about auditioning for the con and they're like, Oh no, no, no, I couldn't do that.

And it's like, you absolutely could. Just do it and there's been so many like that and then they've gone in they've got into the con and they're like, oh I can't believe it. And I'm like, well, yes, I can believe it. You're really good And then they go through the con and then you know It's just I just love that course so much and it really is just that pathway thing and being around other women Doing what you're doing and that creating that community and creating those relationships where?

You can ring someone up because you know them like I have people who've gone through that course still ringing me like hey I've got a question about this or that or whatever and things like that and it's so good it's a it's just about creating that community so these people don't feel alone and they and they feel they're in a environment where they can take risks and can do it in a really safe space you know there's a lot of playing goes on it's like basically like a workshop where you you know it's like ensembles and stuff like that but I think the big part of it which is really Interesting is the, just the confidence that you see happen between when the first week to like the end week where people will try stuff or won't try stuff.

And by the end, everyone's out, you know, taking solos. And I always loved doing it. And I used to love taking the beginner class was my favorite. So some of these people had maybe done a concert band or, you know, they hadn't ever, some of them had never done any improvising whatsoever at all. And it just is so wonderful to get to spend that time.

Like it's an eight week course. with them every week and, and, and see just the confidence grow,  um, and the people come out of their shells and like, yeah, it's just, it's really, really good. And it's just done so much, so much good. And we've got them actually now in Perth in the ACT and we're looking to go hopefully to Brisbane in the next couple of years.

So we're trying to, you know, put it all over the place. It's just about having people on the ground in those places that can then run it. And yeah, yeah, so it's just sort of, it's, it just keeps, we haven't really changed the course at all in those 21 years, like the structure, because it works, and it's like, we just, you know, that's what it is.

It's just go, you know, you go to these ensembles every week, you learn to play about three or four tunes, and then you do a concert at the end, and that's how simple it is. And it's incredible that something that simple can make such a massive difference. I don't know what to say about Sandy Evans, she's just, she's just done so much for me personally.

Yeah. She's such a legend. Yeah. And so many other people too. Cause I realized back then she was putting me already back then she was putting me in a position of, you know, like a leadership position right from the start. And I remember a few times back then even she'd asked me to be a judge on a panel for something and I was always like, why am I being a judge for this award?

Because I'm like half my friends are in it. Or, you know, like, I want to be in it. I want to be in the award. Like, I don't want to be the judge, but she was like positioning me. She must have seen something in me that I could do that and, and have, you know, like interest in it. And so she was always sort of doing this in a really beautiful, subtle, sandy way of like giving me these opportunities and yeah, I'm forever grateful to people like her and all those people that helped me when I first moved to Sydney.

So yeah, she's an incredible woman.

Chelsea: Just changing direction a wee bit. You've been part of the Create NSW Artform Advisory Board for Contemporary Music, which provides strategic direction in terms of state funding for music. Just wanting to think at a state level and even larger at a federal level, what do you think governments should be doing to support contemporary music?

Zoe: That's a big question. I mean, I guess the thing is. If we just had more money, it would be fantastic. I mean, this, it's funny you're asking about creating South Wales because I'm actually in the middle of assessing all these grants at the moment. That's what I was doing right before I got on with you.

And the hard thing is that we never know quite how much is going to be in the pot. So you don't like a lot of the applications, it's really hard because you don't know, like we just make recommendations and then ultimately it's down to the minister, how much money is going to come out. So it's always that thing, like there's so many people doing amazing things, but not everyone's going to get funding.

Not everyone's going to get the money. And so even though Labor's, you know, they're pledging all this money and that it's good, like finally we're getting some more money back in the coffers. We've still been cut, cut, cut for years, you know, under the last government. So I feel like it is that thing, you know, I mean, there's only limited money to go around everywhere, but.

But obviously just more money would be incredible, more venue support, all that kind of thing. Like any of, any of that stuff, you know, and I know there's a few people, it'd be the same in Victoria, but I feel like Victoria probably has a bit of a better live music policy than New South Wales does. I feel like we're sort of catching up, you know, cause the music industry as well, it's so fractured, like there's so many different aspects to it and so many different parts to it.

So. what one section of it needs isn't necessarily what another section of it needs. And I guess that's always the hard thing when we're lobbying. It's very difficult. It's not like we're hitting with one kind of point asking for what we want because everyone needs something different.

Chelsea: Zoe, thank you so much for joining me on the control podcast.

Zoe: Thanks for having me.