Tana Douglas

This episode was produced by Chelsea Wilson.

There is a content warning for this episode, conversation includes references to suicide and drug use.

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea: Hi Tana, welcome to the Control podcast.

Tana: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I've been looking forward to it.

Chelsea: Tana, you were widely acknowledged as rock and roll's first female roadie. In 1974, you started working for ACDC, right? First doing their backline, and then you became their live sound engineer.

So managing the front of house as well as their onstage monitors. I read that the band really threw you into the deep end. You were their roadie, you lived with the band. But they basically just said, Tana, we want you to do our sound. You know what we want sound wise. So you're it. So even though you weren't trained as a sound engineer, they were confident that you would work it out and you were the right person for the job. And what really stood out to me hearing that story was that you were treated like another member of the band, but that you really understood their music and you really understood what they were trying to achieve sonically. How do you advise? other engineers to get to that level of understanding with a band so that they can deliver a show like the band wants to be heard.

Tana: You know, I think the important thing is, you know, and it's funny, we're talking about sound is to actually listen, you know, listen to what they say, listen to what they're asking for and figure out why they're asking for it and what it is that they really need, because You know, it depends where you're at in your career.

If you're at the beginning of your career and the band's at the beginning of their career. You know, they could be asking for something which really isn't what they need in their sound. It may be something completely different to get the effect that they're looking for. But you know, it's, if you're inexperienced, you know, a lot of people think it's either volume or, you know, bass, treble, mid.

So it's like, well, no, there's way more to it than that. So it's, it's important to really listen to, to what they're talking about and what they're looking for and why they're looking for it, because it might not even be them. It might be another member of the band. their balance or their sound or something that's putting this person off, you know, so you have to get into it really quite deeply.

Chelsea: Can you chat more to us about that relationship between tech crews and artists? You know, artists can't deliver a show without their technical team, but there's often a tension between the two parties, right? So there's a lot of unfortunate examples of artists being. Really rude and entitled to tech crew, but then, you know, there's a lot of stories, particularly from female artists about sound is being patronizing and condescending to them. I don't understand why we're not better friends.

Tana: Why can't we all just get along?

Chelsea: Yeah. Like how do you recommend that artists and tech teams work together to create the best work environment?

Tana: You have to listen from a different angle for that. Because again, what it is, is just because they're yelling and screaming at you doesn't mean that.

They've got a problem with you necessarily, you know, so egos you've got to be careful, you know, you're working with a lot of really talented, quite sensitive, a lot of people and and again, you know, a lot of these people who, you know, have these really big egos, but you know, that's that's something that they need to actually get them up onto that stage.

You know, I mean, more power to them. I couldn't do it. You know, it's like I have zero interest in being in that part of it. It's like, oh, hell no, I'm not going to bare my soul every night to anywhere from 10 people to, you know, 100, 000. No, that's not going to happen, you know. And they do, no matter what condition they're in, no matter how they're feeling, no matter what's happened in their personal life, you know, whatever's going on, they could have had some really bad news.

They could have had, you know, they might have just fired their manager, or they might have found out they've just been ripped off of their entire earnings, you know. So I mean, I think they feel that they can yell at a crew person, and it's more frustration than anything. And I think, you know, I'm not saying it's right, and it doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to, but I think it's an understanding that it's a safe place for them, you know, and if they want to make an idiot out of themselves, they may as well do it with one of us.

You know, as opposed to, you know, a reporter or, you know, whatever, you know, a police officer or something for God's sake, you know what I mean? So you kind of have to look after them that way as well. You know, it's part of the job to help protect them. And sometimes from themselves, you know.

Chelsea:  You've worked on major tours, huge shows with artists such as Susie Quatro, David Essex, Status Quo, Leo Sayer. I mean, the list is just incredible. The Who, Iggy Pop, Elton John. Can you talk to us about the development of tech specs and stage plots and at what point sound and lighting crew joining a major tour are briefed on those requirements? And how much preparation would you get before you actually hit the road?

Tana: Again, it depends on where you are in your career, you know, how big the production is and how many people are involved in it. You know, I mean, is the promoter The be all end all of, you know, what the production is, or is it the band that's designing it, or are they just coming to us with a concept and saying, look, this is kind of cool.

We'd like this. And then we create it for them. You know, it really depends. I mean, now it's a huge, huge industry and it's nothing like it used to be. I mean, you know, we used to, I mean, I remember, for example, Dire Straits when they were just starting to take off.  We were doing rehearsals in London and there was some song, I don't know if you'll know what the song is, I don't know what the song is, I can't remember, but it was something about a sun setting or a red sun or something, I don't know what it was, and we're like, how are we going to get that effect with no money, you know?

So we had this, we had this winch with this big old theatre light on it, 2k light and like, and hand painted a gel. Sheet that the light could go down and it looked like a sunset, you know, I mean, it's It was so Mickey Mouse But it but it worked from a distance like from where the audience were they couldn't tell you know But you looked at it up close.

It was like, oh my god, and you're winding this thing and you're trying not to make that sun rock the movement So, you know, I mean you could go from anything like that to you know, a million dollar production, you know, well more than a million dollars now. I mean, you're talking a lot of money these days.

But, um, you know, how do the crews work together? Well, again, it's a whole different system now. I mean, it all relies on your site manager, your location manager, your production manager, your stage manager, your tour manager. There's all of these titles now and there's all of these positions and what they do is they oversee different departments and, well, they oversee all of the departments, to be honest.

And then there's one person in each department who then oversees. their department. It's almost like a beehive now, you know, so what you do is, you know, everyone's running around, but they're only looking after the certain area that they need to be aware of. And there's a couple of people from each department that cross over and check in on each other and make sure that they're on time, that they're not affecting the next team's start time or.

You know, finish time or whatever it is, you know, so you do have to work together. You've got to be part of a team. You cannot be a person out there going, well, I'm the front of house sound guy, so I'm the be all and end all and I'm the important one. Well, you know, yeah, you can be the important one, like McCartney, for example, will only tour with one particular sound guy.

You know, so yeah, he's pretty important, you know, and when COVID was going on, they had like an understudy for him. There was, it was a friend of mine, actually, that did the whole tour on standby, just in case this one person got sick because Paul had to be comfortable. They couldn't just have anyone step in and do it, you know?

So they paid for this person to do the whole tour without ever touching the desk. He never touched the desk because the guy never got sick. But if he had of, he would have been there and he would have been the substitute. That Paul was comfortable with, you know, so things like that happen these days.

They never used to happen, you know, it'd be like, I mean, obviously I was doing sound.

Chelsea: I mean, it throws the budgets right out of the water, doesn't it? When you've got to have contingency plans for contingency plans. It's quite music theater having an understudy like that.

Tana: Yeah, I mean, that was. coming out of COVID. So, you know, people weren't clear and there were tours canceling because people were getting sick and stuff. So there's just different ways to look at it. And they have the budget where they can afford to do that. You know, other tours, people were getting sick and they had to, like, blow out a few shows.

And then in the end, they just end up not doing the tour because then someone else got sick, you know, but you know, that was an extreme circumstance, you know, but weather's another thing, you know, I mean, I've done tours through Europe in winter. And we've been the only tour that's made it through the entire itinerary without cancelling a show.

You know, whereas other bands on their tours, they've had to cancel shows. Buses have slid off the roads, or trucks have slid off the roads, or You know, you never know what's gonna happen. It's always gonna be something though, and so you just Have to be prepared for it, and you've got to be professional enough to not let it rattle you.

I mean, it will rattle you, you just can't show it. You just sort of go, it's fine, let's go, we'll figure it out, you know. Because the last thing, again, the artist wants to hear is that there's a problem, you know. I mean, they can walk in. You know, I mean, if it's done right, they might arrive a little bit later because that's given us the extra time we need to catch up or whatever.

And they'll walk in and we're all smiles and whereas we just haven't stopped for like 12 hours and it's been a nightmare and we're, you know, making all these things work and things have been damaged and broken and stuff and we've fixed them and Got them back working again. You don't go up to someone and go, Oh my God, you wouldn't believe the hell we've just been through to get your show on the road for you.

You know what I mean? You say, hi, how you doing? Everything ready? Yeah, everything's great. Thank you. It's going to be a great night. We've got, yeah. And then, then you go into a room somewhere and have a nervous breakdown, but you never do it in front of them or cry or whatever, like, Oh my God.

Chelsea: You've really got to think on your feet and be a real problem solver and just adapt, right?

Absolutely. And you just can't take it personally. Whatever gets thrown at you, you can't take it personally. I'm not saying that that leaves you wide open to abuse and that sort of stuff. I'm not going there. But what I'm saying is that you need to roll with it and you need to prioritize stuff. And do you want to spend that 15 minutes arguing with someone, or do you want to go and do the job and come back afterwards when everything's done and dusted, and then say to them, we need to sit down for a minute and have a talk.

That's how you do it. You don't start yelling and screaming and throwing stuff, you know. I mean, it happens. Don't get me wrong. It happens because you're under a lot of pressure. I mean, you are going to snap at times, you know, but you try not to, you know, because it's not good for you either. You know, what we've learned over the years is that we're doing ourselves as much harm as we're doing someone else.

So it's probably better not to do it. You know, you get wiser with age. And then when you can pass that on to the next generation coming up and then, you know, the next, next team's coming through, hopefully they'll learn from that, you know, they'll learn from what we've had to go through. And, and they'll have their own mountains to climb as well.

It's not, you know, it's not going to be 100 percent easy sailing just because we went through hell. But, um, one of my favorite sayings is if you, if you don't pass it on, it's not knowledge, it's a secret. You know, so, you know, what's the point? If you're going to learn it, pass it on.

Chelsea: In terms of touring, you know, and readapting a show for multiple environments, have you ever had times where you arrived in a venue that just really didn't suit the show and you had to just adapt it?

Of course. It happens all the time. You know, we're not talking the cream of the crop here because that's all worked out well in advance now. But, you know, we got lied to on a regular basis in the 70s and the 80s. It was like, it'll be fine. I mean, there's one example. I was doing Whitesnake at the time in England.

And the tour we were leapfrogging with, which was quite hilarious, was Richie Blackmore's Rainbow. So we had three members of Deep Purple and then there was him. So it was quite a competitive, you know, bit of clashing between the two tours. And Richie had this rainbow thing, this big old rainbow arch which had, you know, all the five colours and all the light bulbs inside of it and stuff.

It was a behemoth of a thing. And it only fitted in some of the venues, you know what I mean? So, but it was like, oh yeah, no, it'll fit everywhere. Let's design it. You know, see, it's, you know, you know, when people see these mock shows of bands going through all these, you know, different things, you know, whether it's Spinal Tap or whatever.

I mean those all came from really from real life situations, you know, yes, they're funny now, but you know when you were doing it at the time it was like, oh my god, it's a nightmare. So anyway, to get back to it, we, we decided we'd throw out Richie's rainbow one night because we found it in the venue.

They'd left it, they'd left it somewhere outside because it wouldn't fit in the venue. So we decided we'd dismantle it and throw it in the dumpster. And they had to come back looking for it. Then they had to find out where the dumpster had gone and try and get it back. They got it back, but they weren't happy.

But that's like a prime example of is it going to fit in all the venues that we have? Yeah, sure, it'll fit. And, you know, again, you know, maybe, you know, when they book the tour originally, you know, it might not sell as well as they thought it was going to. So they changed to smaller venues. Well, we can't all of a sudden go, well, hang on a minute, you know, we've designed this for this size stage.

And this size, you know, auditorium, you know, now you've cut it in half. What do you want us to do? So we have to really, you know, think on our feet and, and have a system and have the knowledge on how to dissect that system and still, you know, you need your special lights, you need your proper, you know, you need your features, you need all the special effects and stuff that you've sold them as part of a package for the tour.

You know, the band wants to see it. They don't want to hear the venue's too small. I mean that's, you know, cause that's wounding to their ego anyway, because then they know that they're not selling tickets. So you can't say that, say, well you're only getting half a lining rig cause you didn't sell any tickets.

You know, you can't say that, you know. So you have to make it look as much like the whole thing as you can. You know what I mean? So, you know, there's all of that side of it too. You can't just go, well let's just stick up a front and back truss and forget about it, you know. It's like. Well, no, we need to think about it a lot more than that, you know, and the same with sounds, you know, I mean, you've got a large sound system and all of a sudden you're in a small venue, you know, you've got to know what racks you're going to use, you've got to know, you know, what cabinets you're going to use, what bins you're going to use, and again, how you're going to stack it and where you're going to put it, if you're going to be able to fly it or not, you know, what hasn't probably changed so much in the industry is Getting there to that top level, you know, because you're still gonna fight the same battles. You're gonna have shitty venues You're gonna have terrible cheap equipment that you know You landed with because people don't want to spend the money because they're not sure if it's a good investment yet or not whereas if they spent the money it would automatically be a good investment because the band would sound better They'd look better and people would want to be part of it more, you know, so It's a catch 22, really.

It's a bit of a catch 22. So, stadium shows now, you know, and arena sized shows now have changed so much. And it's amazing. I mean, it's wonderful to see. I think it's unfortunate that the ticket prices are so outrageous in some instances. They really don't need to be. But again, you know, there's venues have jumped in on it.

Everyone wants a piece of the cake. You know, whereas before, the promoter would take a percentage and the band would get the rest, you know. Then the band would have to pay a manager, a booking agent, the crew, the travel agent, the this, the that. But now, most of them don't even have their own merchandise anymore, you know.

It all goes through the venue and, and they have to pay the venue a percentage. And it's like, personally, I don't think that anyone has any right to that. If it's their likeness and their image, they should be getting the money for it, you know. They have their own people selling it. So it's just everyone's that they hand out because they see a lot of money there and they want some of it.

So it's unfortunate, but the reflection on that is the price of concert tickets.

Chelsea: But in saying that, you know, a key development in live productions since the seventies. Has been the use of, you know, more advanced lighting, special effects, the laser shows, pyrotechnics, large scale video displays. I mean, Kylie Minogue's Aphrodite show even had the running water, you know, these massive fountains. I mean, that rig was epic to set up. Cirque de la type stuff.

Tana: And you've got to pay someone to keep the ducks out of the fountain.

Chelsea: Absolutely. I mean, just establishing, rebuilding all of that every show is just insane. But in terms of audiences, you know, I'd really like to ask you, you know, do you think the audiences now expect more from these shows of what they, they used to?

Tana: Of course they do. They, they really, really do. And it's a bit of a catch 22 because people are now thinking that they know a lot more than they do. You know what I mean? Cause all of a sudden it's like. You know, they want to go up to the sound guy and give them advice on, you know, man, you know, you need to make this a little louder or that a little louder or, you know, like, why don't you do this with your lights and, and it's just like, it's the last thing you need to hear, you know, it's not as though we've just slapped this stuff together, you know, and maybe occasionally there's a good idea.

It's like, you know, if that was like for this song, if they did like this lightning bolt and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, yeah, that's a really cool idea, but unfortunately. You know, we can't do that due to safety restrictions and things like that, you know, we would love to do that, but you know, so that's the side they don't know, you know, now they've got like, they've got it down that there's video people and there's sound people and there's lighting people and riggers are still pretty safe because they go up in the roof, you never see him and they take off again, you know, so they don't get harassed very often, but um, A lot of people follow bands and they go to multiple, multiple shows, you know, and they're the hardcore fans.

And you know what? They're the fans that keep the bands going. They really, really are, you know, and it's, some of them are a little fanatical, but you know what? I don't think you can fault them for it. I really don't, you know, they, they're spending every penny that, that they can to go and see their band and it is their band, you know, and, and I've worked for several bands that have those sort of followings, you know, I mean, Status Quo is one of those bands with the Quo Army, you know, they just, they're manic, you know, they just love Status Quo and, you know, and, and I think it's wonderful.

Keeps the band, the band's been going for like 50 years now, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing, you know, whatever it is, you know, whether it's, I mean, the stones, you know, I mean, they've just brought out a new single, new album. I think it's amazing. You know, I mean, some artists, I think, need to be a little careful going out there at this stage of the game, you know, but, um, hopefully they'll all figure that out, you know, and, and some artists, you know, they can't go out anymore because they can't get insured.

You know, so there's that side of it as well, you know, so which is unfortunate because maybe they didn't get to do a farewell tour because they didn't know that this was going to happen to them quite as soon as it did, you know, medically or whatever, health wise, so they never got to do a farewell tour for their fans or but then again, another band's done 10 farewell tours.

Chelsea: KISS! They're constantly saying goodbye.

Tana: You know, I've still never seen a kiss show. Yeah. Yeah. And I could never name a Kiss song, but I think, I think I saw something online the other day and I went, Oh, is that one of their songs? You know, there was something with Kiss doing something, you know, whatever it is they do.

I call them houses, you know, the band has a house and they have their team and that's how it's handled, you know, and it's usually the management company is the one that you know, sticks to that and goes, okay, if this is it, this is it. This is what we're going to do, you know, but you know, no, one's ever going to say never again, unless they can't do it physically.

You know what I mean? Because who's going to turn down that amount of money. I mean, it's ridiculous. It's, it's how they make money now. Oh, and also that's what they're born to do. And it's that recognition and connection with their fans. Yeah, I mean it's a connection with their fans, but it's, it's the only way they make money now.

They don't make money out of their merchandising. They don't make money out of record sales. They don't make money out of any of the things that were staple before, you know, I mean, it's, it's ridiculous. They have to get out there and they have to tour, you know, and like you say, productions have been getting bigger and bigger.

So they feel that they've got to better the last one that went out the door, which means it's going to cost a lot more. And then, so the price of the ticket goes up, you know, so, you know, it's one of those things.

Chelsea: I mean, that is a massive industry change that you will have observed throughout your career is in the seventies, the record industry. And in the eighties as well, people sold a lot of records. And in the nineties, people sold a lot of CDs,  huge amount of CDs and. The record industry, the record labels never imagined that that was going to change so dramatically. They, they didn't believe that the streaming thing was going to happen, that the digital era was going to be as strong as it was.

They were in complete denial. It was a sharp wake up call, but it meant that so many artists had to go back out on the road. Some of them never to it. Like Mariah Carey, never to it. She was not a live artist. She didn't get her kind of chops from the road. She was a recording artist, but now she needs to tour. Like so many. I mean, has that made it a more pressurized environment for you to work in?

Tana: Yes, because, I mean, the bar's set so high now. You know what I mean? The bar is set so high. It used to be like, oh, we're going out on tour. It's gonna be a great laugh. We're gonna have a great time. Yeah, it's gonna be hard work, but it's gonna be fun and blah blah blah, you know.

Now it's like, it's a lot more serious now, you know, it's like, okay, we've got serious responsibilities here, you know, it's like, I mean, it's always been and it always will be the show must go on. I mean, that's never going to go away, you know, and we've always abided by that. And we've always worked to that.

You know, you can't take a sick day and say, look, you know, I'm sorry. I'm sick. I can't do a show today, you know? So everyone take the day off, you know? I mean, it's just doesn't, you know, it can't happen. And 99. 99999 percent of the time, you can't take the day off no matter how sick you are. You know, you've got to be in hospital.

You know, you've got to be dragged out by an ambulance, you know what I mean? And they've got to lock the door so someone doesn't drag you back out and throw you on the bus. I mean, I got, I got electrocuted on an Elton show and they just put me on the bus. They didn't even call an ambulance. They put me on the bus and every now and then they'd come and poke me and see if I was still breathing.

They're like, Oh, she's all right.

Chelsea: So do you think that's where the insurance part of it's coming in as well? Is insuring audience tickets, but also insuring all of your cast and crew.

Tana: Yes, because there was none of that. I mean, I worked for one production company who said that they were paying my taxes for 10 years.

And I only found out just, you know, not so long ago that they weren't. They were just taking the money out and keeping it, I guess. So I was getting less thinking taxes had been paid. But, um, it turns out there were no taxes paid. I mean, what do you do? You know, cause they'd pay you in cash. You know what I mean?

So they'd say like, Oh, here you go. Cause you'd be out on the road. So they'd come out and they'd pay you, you know, once a week or once a month, or depending how long it was and how often you needed it. But you know, on top of your per diem and stuff that you get anyway, that's meant to be your daily expenditures, you know?

Yeah. So, I mean, now you've got to have insurance, you've got to have medical, you know, health coverage, you've got to have all of these things. Or people won't take you on, you know, it's like, well, no, because, you know, they don't want, which again is, is a bit of a, a gray area to me as well, you know, I mean, if, if you're standing on a stage and all of a sudden the roof falls in and hits you on the head, why is that your responsibility to pay for the medical expenses, you know, that's, that's a whole other story, you know, that's, that's a whole other story, you know, I mean, you know, stages collapse, all sorts of things happen, you know, right.

I mean, unfortunately, there was a, a drum tech that was killed when a stage collapsed in, in Canada several years back and his case still hasn't been settled, you know, his parents, you know, are still trying to get someone to accept responsibility. They don't even want the money. They just want someone to say, look, we messed up. Your son died. But of course, no one's going to say that because then. They're accepting faults, and then they're scared they're going to get sued, you know? So, you know, it's a tricky situation, because it is a dangerous job, and you have to have your wits about you, and you have to be careful. You know, I mean, how many people walk off the front of a stage?

You know, I mean, performers, how many performers walk off the stage? You know, I mean, it's and they do it every night of their life just about. And it's the same stage and they still fall off the damn thing. You know, it's like, you know, and it's not from necessarily being. or, or not taking care, you know, it can be the light can, you know, the follow spot can hit you from a different angle in your eyes.

And you can think you may be one step over from where you are and you've got one more step you can take. And all of a sudden you don't, you know, so there's a lot of different things, you know, that, that can happen. And that's again, not even counting the electricity side of it and stuff like that. Cause there was so much electricity used on these shows now. And, you know, special effects like pyro and stuff like that. You know, I mean, it's, it's huge, you know, it's huge. It is a really tough life, you know, really being in your own home, constantly on the move, people getting exhausted, emotional, battling through different time zones and being in a high pressure environment.

What kind of characteristics or personalities do you think really suit being a roadie? Or a tech that is on tour. Is it a personality type or is it something you need to adapt to?

Tana: Yeah, no, it definitely is. And you've got to be an A type person anyway. You definitely have to be an A type person because you have to withstand being, you know, someone yelling at you. You've got to withstand the pressure. You've got to withstand, you know, grabbing a team and making them, you know, whipping them into shape and making them do what they need to do. And, you know, anyone you hire needs to be able to evolve to that. Otherwise, they're not going to last in, in the industry.

They're really not, you know. So, yeah, you have to be a very strong person. Um, which is why I think we get so close. Because we are alpha types and we are under a lot of pressure together. So, and we're all living with each other for, you know, 12, 18 months at a time. Sometimes longer, you know, depending. I mean, shorter as well.

But. You know, you, you bond with these people, you know, the, the bad side of it, I think is you'll take way more from someone who's a crew member and, and a friend on a tour, like as far as bad behaviour and stuff like that than you ever would from like your spouse or a family member. So there's a bit of that that goes on as well, which is like, you know, bad behaviour that sort of gets.

It doesn't so much get encouraged anymore, it used to get encouraged. It was like, how much can we make this person do? How crazy are they going to go tonight? And it was a big giggle, you know. Everyone would set certain people up and off they go, you know. It'd be like, anyone who wasn't part of our entourage, so to speak, would be like, oh my god, what's going on?

And we'd all think it was hilarious, you know. But not so much of that happens anymore. But, but it is, you have to be an incredibly strong personality. You've got to be a strong character. You've got to be smart. You've got to be smart. I mean, that's, that's the thing that, you know, going back to the seventies and, you know, even before, well, really the seventies, you know, the early seventies coming back up this way.

People would look rough, you know, they'd be rough looking guys with long hair and, you know, cut off denim jeans and, you know, t shirts and, and smoking and drinking and yelling and screaming and stuff. And, and, you know, but those people were some of the most intelligent people on the planet. They looked rough.

I mean, I looked rough back then. I mean, you'd go days without a shower for God's sake, you know, there was nowhere where you could shower. There was nowhere where you could sleep. You know, you're just doing show up to show up to show and it's not a clean job, you know, anyway. So, you know. three or four days into it, it's like, Oh my God, these people look like they've come out of a cave somewhere, like a coal mine or something, you know?

So they, they would look at us and think that, you know, well, they can't be that smart. Well, we are that smart. We're just a little dirty at the moment. That's, that's the thing, you know, I mean, people with the term roadie, you know, the, the term roadie doesn't really get used so much anymore. You know, because everyone wants to be a tech, you know, they want to be a guitar tech, or a drum tech, or a, a manager, a stage manager, or a department head, or, you know, whatever it is, you know.

So the term roadie gets a bit of a bum rap now, but people who started off that whole roadie thing were just incredible bunch of people, incredible bunch of people. You know, they came from all sorts of walks of life, you know, the ones that designed the sound, designed the lighting, designed the trussing.

All of that, they all came from different walks of life. What did we have in common? We had a love for music in common. That's what we had, you know, and, and from that we built, you know, lifelong friendships and bonds, you know, because we went through so many hard times and so much. To make these things happen and create these things that are looked at now is like, oh yeah, whatever, let's, let's That's what else can we do, you know, well, that's life, you know, that's how it is. It's always evolving.

Chelsea: Mental health for people working in the music industry has been a huge topic, especially over the COVID 19 pandemic. I mean, touring is an extremely stressful environment. We've seen a lot of people leave touring and leave technical roles. You know, we've got a labour shortage in that space at the moment.

Tana: It's worldwide.

Chelsea: It's a worldwide labor shortage. Yeah. I mean, in May, the Swinburne University of Technology here in Australia released a survey. They had surveyed over a thousand people working in live music and performance, and more than half of the respondents had experienced suicidal thoughts, which is just awful.

I think it's over four and a half times the proportion of the general population. And how do you think production and touring companies can support technical staff in terms of physical and mental health so that we keep highly skilled operators in the sector?

Tana: Listen to your crew. If they say there's something wrong and they don't feel right and they're not working right and they're not acting right, pull them over.

Find out what's going on. Ask the rest of their crew, what's happening? What's going on here? Have you noticed anything? You know, because again, that's the downside of being an alpha type character. You don't accept help and you don't admit. When you're fallible. You just don't. They've come from a history where, don't complain, you can't complain, you know, you can't, God forbid, you can't cry, you know, it's like anything like that.

Don't show emotion, just suck it up and get on with it. And that's where we've all come from. And so, to actually see all these studies being done and these surveys being done, I think it's amazing, I think it's fabulous, that care is finally being taken. I mean, there was a point. In my career, where I knew as many dead people as I knew living people.

And they'd either committed suicide or, or whatever. And I was still really young at the time. And I remember thinking, you know, like I just heard that someone else had just killed themselves. Another crew member, who was young. He was like in his thirties, early thirties, you know. And it was like, hang on a minute.

You know, what's, what's going on here? This is like, there's something wrong here. And it's, from spending an entire career, an entire lifetime, Of making the impossible happen, and then all of a sudden you find that you can't make something really simple happen in your personal life, you know? It's always the personal life that gets us.

It's always the personal life that gets us. Because, whether it's having too much personal life all of a sudden, because we're not working as much, or whatever it is, you know? Um, I mean work may cause it, but it's the personal time that gets us. You know, because you, you find it really hard to speak to people who aren't in the industry, who don't do the job that you do, because what you find is people will come up to you and they want to be really friendly and chatty and nice.

They all want something. They want tickets or they want t shirts or they want to meet someone or they want to come to the show or they want to do this and you know, and it's exhausting when you're going every single town you go to. else, whether they're a total stranger or someone, you know, they all want something.

And it's just, so you tend to isolate yourself a bit. You know, I did anyway, I had to train myself. I had to seriously take myself in the corner and have a word, so to speak. I was walking down the street and. Someone, like, smiled at me and said hello, and I sort of went, you know, Well, what do they want? You know, it was my first thought, you know, well, what do they want?

And then I realized it was like, I don't think they want anything, you know, maybe they're just saying hello, you know. But I had to force myself. And I used that one person. Every now and then I'd see that person. Depending on what frame of mind I was in, I'd either cross over, because they were really quite friendly and it was kind of shocking to me.

So, you know, I'd see them coming across the street or something, but other times I'd make a point of walking past them. But it took me probably a few weeks before I actually said hello back. But kept walking really fast. God forbid I wasn't going to stop and talk. Oh, that's not going to happen. Because it's hard to talk to people who aren't in the industry.

You know what I mean? And, and again, you know, then when, even when you do get to that point where you're speaking with someone. They want to hear stories, they want to hear this, they want to hear that, and it's like, oh God, give me a day off.

Chelsea: It's a bummer you hadn't written the book earlier. You could have just gone, you want to talk to me, just buy a copy of this.

Tana: Yeah, just carry a few around in my bag.

Chelsea: Yeah. Here you go, $30.

Tana Yeah. Ching ching. All the stories are here, man. Well, that was another thing, I mean, writing the book was another thing, you know, I had no intention of ever writing a book, but the way it came around was interesting. I won't go into it here. It's probably, you've got other questions you need to ask, I'm sure.

Chelsea: But no, please tell us. I, I was going to ask you about the book. I loved it. I absolutely loved reading it. It was really therapeutic, you know, it really was writing it, you know, I mean, it was something because, you know, it was one of those, God, did I waste my life doing this job? Should I have done something else?

You know, I mean, you think these things, you know, and, and, you know, some people think them. further and further and further, and that's when they get in trouble. You know what I mean? I sat down and wrote a book about it, you know, and, you know, managed to put in some funny stories. I mean, some, some sad stories, but it's all true.

It's all honest stories. You know what I mean? So it's all experience. It's all, you know, your life, you know, but I think to me, I think it helped me a lot, you know, cause I got it out. It's like purging, you know, get it out. So that was a good thing, you know, does everyone need to write a book? Everyone could at least try or dabble, you know, it's just whatever it takes.

Cause it's like having a conversation with yourself, I think, writing a memoir. You're having a conversation with yourself about things that you've probably. Not really ever had a conversation about before and you bounce it backwards and forwards. So it's not just a one way conversation. It's like, well, yeah, that happened, but What about from this point of view and what about from this, but you know what I mean?

So you're having these like almost like conversations and you can resolve a lot of issues that way You know because you don't normally do that or I don't anyway It's just phenomenal Tana like reading your story. You've had so many lifetimes in one lifetime But yet throughout the book, you're not whingy.

You're not like woe is me. It's just yeah this happened and I moved on You know, like that inner strength is just incredible. You know, where did that come from? That confidence and that self belief? Yeah. I mean, I think it actually came from my shitty childhood, to be honest. Um, [00:40:00] you know, I was, I was constantly moving around.

I never knew where I was going to be from one day to the next. You know, I, I didn't have any security. I didn't have any real family unit. So when I all of a sudden threw myself out on a tour, it wasn't very different. Only the people were nicer. I actually liked these people. That was the difference. It was like, oh, so, you know, it was like, because people go, doesn't it bother you living out of a suitcase for a year?

It's like no, I'd pretty much done it all my life, you know what I mean? So as a child, you know, so I mean, it was, it was, it sounds funny saying it, but for me, for the inner me, it was a calmer environment being on a rock and roll tour. Then, then growing up with my mother, you know

Chelsea: You're working on your next book at the moment. Is it going to be similar in style? Is it a follow up or have you considered writing a more technical book about logistics, sound lighting?

Tana: No, not really. You know, I've got friends who have written those books. So I think, you know, that's kind of covered from different departments by different people that I know.

I don't think I need to do that. I much prefer telling a story. That's more my, my genre. I am writing a second book. I don't know how soon that will be out though because I've actually stopped and thought about it. It's a little bit different to where I was going originally and, and I'm actually liking it a bit more but. You know, as far as LOUD goes, I mean, the other thing is that, you know, there's talk of making a documentary out of it. So, you know, I mean, I'm talking to a production company, you know, we're at the point where, you know, they're sort of raising funds and that sort of stuff. So maybe by mid next year, we'll start shooting it.

You know, it takes so long to do all this anything film. It would be incredible. Yeah, so watch, watch the space and, and, you know, I find it I find it personally tricky doing the second book when I'm still involved with the first book, you know. I thought the first book would have settled down by now, but it just really hasn't, you know.

You know, I keep doing a lot of interviews and, and, and podcasts and, and that sort of thing, which is great. I mean, I love doing them, you know, it's fabulous. But I personally thought it would have quietened down a lot sooner than now, but it hasn't. No, you're in demand. I guess so, which is nice, you know.

Rolling Stone recently published an article that states, Tana Douglas is a trailblazer, a leader in a man's world. How did that make you feel to read that? It was pretty cool, actually. It's, you know, when they called me and asked me about doing an interview and stuff, it was like, Oh. You know, I did save myself from going, I'm going to be on the cover of Rolling Stone. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's a joke, you know. But, I mean, the fact that I'm, I'm in there is really nice. I mean, they reviewed Loud when it first came out as well. They did a review for it. But to actually have an article in there as well, I think is wonderful. You know, it's, it's the industry magazine. You know, it has been, you know, forever.

So to be, for them to consider you and even acknowledge you, I think is a wonderful thing, you know, very, very proud.

Chelsea: And must be a lot nicer to be in the press, being called a trailblazer and a leader, rather than your first media experience when you were with ACDC, where I believe they were getting a photo of you putting a microphone into a Rather than actually taking a picture of you doing your actual job, they made you go around the corner and do this other thing.

Tana: They stopped me from doing a load in, which was setting up all the equipment for the show that night. They took me out of the venue, past the truck that still had equipment in the back of it. So I could have, like, they could have got a photo of me unloading that or something if they didn't want inside.

Round the corner to a lane. Where there was a car with the back, back door open and someone gave me a mic stand and said, Okay, so push that into the back seat and we'll take a photo. And it's like. It's like, are you serious? It was like, this is so wrong, you know, but no one listened to me, you know. I think the headline, I think it was for The Age in Melbourne.

I think that was the paper. And um, we tried to find the article, but we couldn't actually find it for some reason. Maybe they were embarrassed and got rid of it as well. But I think the title was, She Does It For The Band or something. It was like, oh God. It's like seriously?

Chelsea: Yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? I did a gig a few years ago, which was actually a tribute to Kerry Bedell. No. After she passed away, and we had a big band and a couple of singers and we went to do this photo and the journalist wanted two of the singers, myself and one of the other singers, to kiss one cheek each of the band leader's face.

And I'm like, dude, do you know what the show is about? Like, we're paying homage to this incredible singer who's passed away. Yeah. And this guy is married and why are we kissing him? And, can you really not come up with something else?

Tana: Yeah, exactly. People get paid for these ideas as well. It's like, seriously? This is what you come up with? You're getting paid and this is The thought you come up with?

Chelsea: In the Rolling Stone article, you said that females in the industry haven't come as far as we think they have. I mean, we know in terms of the recording side of the industry, women make up around 2. 8 percent of producers. I think the live industry sector is a little bit better, but still nowhere near gender parity.

Tana: I think it's about 7%. I think, you know, if you want to be generous and include wardrobe and stuff like that, you could probably get up to 10%, you know. But, you know, I think it's closer to a true seven, seven and a half percent, you know.

And, um, it, it, it is a shame. It, it is a shame. You know, I mean, it, it's, people just need to change their way of thinking. There's women in the real world, okay? So why isn't there women in the music industry? Come on, guys. Enough is enough, you know, let's just get on with it. You know, that's, that's the mentality that needs to be adopted is not, oh, it's a girl, which is still the mentality.

It's like, no, oh, it's a lighting designer or, Oh, it's a rigger. Oh, it's a drummer or it's a drummer or, or it's an electrician or whatever it is. It is just get over it. Get on with it. You know, I mean, it's, it's, it's sad really, you know, but you know, there's the other side of it as well, where some people come in demanding change, which reflects to special treatment and you can't expect that.

You can't walk in to an industry and expect special treatment. You have to earn the special treatment. You have to work for it and you have to earn it. That's how I see it anyway. You can, you can yell and scream as much as you want and all that's going to happen is people are going to go, See? Told you that shouldn't have happened, you know?

Why are they here? You know? So, you know, I think, you know, what you really need to do is you need to focus on the job. You need to do the best job you can do and you need to try and do it harder and better than the guy standing next to you. And that was always my philosophy is, you know, if I can't do it, if I can't do it better, I'm not gonna get anywhere because I'm just gonna be another person and if they're just picking a person they're gonna pick one of their mates.

But if they're going to pick someone who's better, then they're going to pick me, if that makes sense. Yeah, you've just got to be undeniably fantastic in the role. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, especially, you know, in the beginning, because, you know, being the only girl out there meant that I had to have a single room.

So they were paying for a room, and it's like, well, why does she get a single room and we don't? Is it because I don't want to look at you in the morning. It's like, are you kidding me? Your smelly feet in the morning. Oh, you know, I mean, I never actually asked for it. It was just something that was automatically given, which I was forever grateful for.

You know what I mean? But you know, there's, there's things like that, that back then when budgets were so tight. It was something that had to be considered, you know, it's like, are we going to pay for a single room for her, you know, yeah, we are, because she's, she does it better than anyone else, so yeah, we are, just suck it up and do it, you know what I mean, so, you know, which, um, you know, when I, when I got to take another fellow Australian, actually, Debbie Vincent, you know, I got to take her on her first tour in Europe, she'd been doing shows in Australia, she'd been touring in Australia, doing lighting, I took her out on Elton with me, you know, and because I wasn't comfortable sending her out on a tour on her own, it can be rough, you know, it can be rough.

So I was kind of like a big sister, you know, and it's like, if anyone got too out of line with their comments or whatever, it was like, hoi. And they're like, Oh God, it's Tana, you know, like, Oh God, you know, don't upset her. You know what I mean? there's still a lot of that, you know, some people feel threatened by a female taking their job, you know, which is ridiculous because if you're good at your job, no one's going to take it male or female.

So don't just focus on a female taking a job, focus on anyone taking a job. You know what I mean? A female is not going to have any more chance of taking a job than a male has. Less chance, if anything. So why you would be biased to the fact of having a female working on a crew because, you know, it's an insecurity, you know, and it's like, well, that's ridiculous.

You need to get over that. That sounds like a personal problem. It's changing, you know, there's a lot of young, you know, I've mentored a few people over the years. And there's an organization over here called Sound Girls, which is a wonderful organization. And Carrie's fabulous. She's, she's one of the original founders of it.

And she's been a monitor engineer since the early 90s. You know, she, um, does Pearl Jam, you know, so she's, she's been with Pearl Jam forever. You know, I have another friend, Becky Powell, who's, she's out doing Queen at the moment. She's doing monitors on Queen, which is nice, you know, I mean, for a while there, like, and I don't know if it was because I was doing lighting to start with, you know, when I went international and, and, um, most people started realizing that I was a girl out there doing it, but women started doing lighting first.

You know, it seemed, you know, so now it's, now it's, it's changed over. They're doing, you know, video, they're doing sound, they're doing rigging, you know, so it's great. It's great to see.

Chelsea: One story from your book that really stuck with me and actually made me quite upset was your leather jacket.

I just, it made me so upset because reading your story, I just thought here is someone who has never really had your own stuff. Like you, you weren't a spoiled kid. It's not like you had this massive wardrobe of things, you know, and so to travel on the road and live out of a suitcase and you don't have material possessions, you've got this one jacket that means so much to you and for Iggy Pop to just grab that and throw that into the crowd. I was like, what?

Tana: Well, he didn't, he didn't mean to throw it into the crowd. You know what, what I think it was is he did that set move each night with his jacket and his jacket didn't weigh anywhere near as much as my jacket did. So I think when all of a sudden he got the jacket off and he started swinging it around he may have like Overcompensated sort of thing, you know what I mean?

God, Jesus, you know, give it a big hurl You know to try and try and get it off to the side because he would do it every night You know you do this it come on you take his jacket off He'd do this slapping it on the floor on the stage with in a figure eight sort of movement and then he'd throw it off to the monitor engineer on the side of the stage, you know, so it just didn't make it that far.

Chelsea: Well I still think he owes you a jacket.

He does. I do happen to have quite a few leather jackets at the moment though, so I'm not actually.

Chelsea: Well I don't care, he still owes you something. It could be an Armani suit, whatever. You choose the jacket and you go buddy.

Tana: Well that'd be nice. Yeah, wouldn't that be nice? But um, I mean he probably doesn't even know. His manager offered to pay me something for it. And, and I was totally offended by whatever the amount was, and I threw beer, threw a crate, a beer at him or something. I went, ba, that's not gonna work. That's no good. You know? So, so, I mean, he probably thinks he's paid for it, you know what I mean? But he didn't, 'cause I, I refused to take it. It wasn't good enough, .

Chelsea: I also heard there was a night where Iggy didn't come on stage and was running really late, and they sent you backstage to try and get him out of his dressing room. And he was just chatting away to someone in there. Can you tell us about that?

Tana: Yeah, yeah, that, that's the same night. The same show.

Chelsea: You're kidding.

Tana: No.

Chelsea: What a night.

Tana: I know. Yeah, he, he decided that before he was going to go on stage, because it was the last, second to last show for the tour. So we were finishing the tour in London, we'd all been all through Europe. And, um, it was the second to last show we were doing three nights in Camden.

He'd wanted Bowie, they'd had a bit of a falling out, him and Iggy had had a falling out with Bowie. You know, they were good mates, they'd done a lot of writing together, they'd, you know, swapped songs, they'd produced together and stuff, you know. But then they'd had a bit of a falling out and, um, hadn't spoken and, and Iggy was, like, a little devastated because he'd lost his mate, you know what I mean?

And he was out on tour and he thought he was going to be on the tour with him and he wasn't. You know, so everything changed. I mean, he had a fabulous band. He had, um, you know, three of the members of MC5. I don't know if you know that Detroit band, but, um, you know, so they were just amazing people, you know, Scotty and, um, Fred Smith, who is Patti Smith's husband.

It's not as though it was a problem that Bowie wasn't there. It was more emotional than anything, you know, it was his friend, you know. So anyway, he finally turns up this night. He's ecstatic. He's like, oh, get on it, get on it, get on it. Come on, bring it back to the dressing room, back to the dressing room.

And it's like, we just called the house lights out for the show to start. It's like. No, no, it's, no, he's supposed to be coming to the stage, not me going to the dressing room. No, this isn't how it works. Stop it. He's not leaving the dressing room. He won't leave. It's like, and it's like, it's a punk venue.

I'm fighting my way through like one and a half thousand between where the front of house desk was and the stage. There must have been at least. 1, 500 people and they're jam packed and it's sweaty and I've got this leather jacket on. And so I'm fighting my way through to get to the front of the stage, of course they don't want to let another person at the front of the stage, that's their spot.

It's like, I don't want the stage, I want the side, you know, and it's like, so I finally get there and they're like ushering me upstairs and like the band's waiting on the side of the stage going, what's going on? It's like, I don't know, I'll let you know as soon as I find out. I run upstairs, and there's all these people out in the hall, in the corridor, and it's like, Oh God, what's going on?

They've gone, You've got to get him on stage. I said, well, yeah. Really? No shit, Sherlock. You know, of course we do. Yeah. And it's like,

Who is it? It's me. I think it is. It's me. It's like, you know, it's like how many Australians do you have working for you? Females, for God's sake, open the door. Who do you think it is? Jesus Christ. So he opens the door a little bit. He grabs me by the scruff of the neck, pulls me in, shuts the door, locks it.

And it's like, What are you doing? You know, what are you doing? And he's like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Here, here, here, here. So we partake in some substances that were illegal at the time. [And um, then uh, he sort of passes me the tray and, and the note. And he's like, Oh, oh, oh, oh. He says, I want you to meet someone.

I want you to meet someone. And so I just did whatever was on there, because I figured if it was all gone, then he'd go on stage. You know what I mean? I thought that's the easy way to resolve this situation. So I just did all of it. And just as I did all of it, he comes, drags this person across the room and he goes, I want you to meet my friend David.

You know, and I look up and there's Bowie. And I'm like, Oh my God, I've just done his lot. Oh God. So I hand it to him. And like, and I'm so embarrassed at this point. I'm like, Oh God. Hello. Grab Iggy and run, you know, drag him down the stage. And like, what was like, what's going on? You know, what just happened?

Get him onto the stage. And then I'm like, I'm out of breath. You know, I'm like, Oh my God. So I pull my jacket off. You know, and I, I shove it under the monitor where the monitor desk is, the engineers there, and I shove it underneath his desk. Cause that's usually a pretty safe space, you know, cause he's going to be standing there all show.

No one's going to be able to get in there and take it without him seeing it. You know, well, no one except for Iggy, of course. And what's he going to do? He's not going to lose his job, is he? And say, you can't over my dead body. That's not going to happen. So meanwhile, I'm fighting my way back out to the front of house position.

I finally get out there and it's just like, I'm on the intercom and talking to follow spots and going, okay guys, stop talking, stop talking. The show's starting. I mean, the music's just starting and I've got my back to the stage and I'm looking up at the spot positions and one guy keeps talking and I'm trying to figure out which one it is, you know, so I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm going, look, I've told you, turn your microphone off.

He's gone, Oh yeah, but you got to see, he just lost his leather jacket. Look, it's going into the pit. And I turn around and I just see like my jacket get sucked down into the audience. I'm like, Oh my God. And it's [00:58:00] like, and so I had to do the whole show knowing my jacket had been stolen and there was nothing I could do about it.

I couldn't just walk off. You know, and, you know, I mean, you can't do it, you know, and it's like, so, you know, I mean, the security guys, you know, it was a music machine was the venue, which was a great venue at the time. And the security guys were like, God bless them. They tried their best. They must've had like a hundred punk kids in leather jackets up against the wall, frozen, go, don't move, don't move.

And they came and got me and had me walk through and see if any of them had my jacket on. It's like, no. So yeah, it was rough. It was rough. I did love him though. I mean, he's a wonderful person. I mean, don't get it wrong. No, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't mean to throw, you know, he didn't deliberately go, Oh, I'll get her.

It's all part of the moment, isn't it? Yeah. It's just, you know, it's, it's shit happens. You know what I mean? It's one of those, you know, but at the time it was like, it was winter and I was freezing and that's, that's my [00:59:00] leather jacket and I only have one. And it's just taken me five years to break it in, you know, that was the point, you know, because when, when the manager said, buy yourself a new one, it's like, you don't understand.

I've just spent five years of my life. Breaking that jacket in. You want me to buy a new one and start again? Are you insane?

Chelsea: So out of all of the artists that you've worked with, if anybody called you today and said, Tana, will you come back on the road? Who would you say yes to?

Tana: It's hard because everyone changes. You know what I mean? Everyone changes so much over the years, you know, and everyone's in different places now and. You'd think ACDC, but you know, to be, to be honest, there's, you know, Angus is really the only original one left. You know what I mean? And, and which, which is enough, should be enough, you know, and I've got a feeling Phil might make a comeback eventually, you know, hopefully that'd be nice.

You know, if they do another tour, that would be nice. Maybe that would be the thing, you know, do the final, final tour with ACDC with Angus and Phil back together. That would be a good combination. You know, maybe it would be them because then that would be a full circle thing, you know what I mean? Yeah, you know, it's it's a young kids game, you know, it really is, you know, there's there's some people out there still, you know Well, there's quite a few actually out there that that haven't retired yet And but you know, I mean not so long ago a tour manager just dropped dead on stage, you know He was an older guy and he just dropped dead on stage, you know, I mean These are the sort of things that, you know, there's got to come a point where you just say no, you can't do it anymore.

Chelsea: Do you think that's why a lot of artists are considering the residency model and doing the Vegas kind of shows?

Tana: It's um, it's easier for them, you know, whereas, whereas earlier on in their careers, a residency would have been the kiss of death because you've got nothing to do. So you just get drunk and you get out of it and you get in trouble and you do like. Oh my god, it's ridiculous. You know, we did a residency in Vegas with Elton and um, in the 80s.

And so many people got in so much trouble. We were there for a week and it was just like, oh my god, we got in so much trouble. Just because you have all this time on your hands, you know, you're used to, you know, you're used to coming in, setting it up, doing a show, packing it up and leaving, you know, but When all of a sudden you just have to walk in and white glove it for a week.

You know, it's like, Oh my God.

Chelsea: But you also did a seven month residency, right? Doing the largest ever lighting rig at the time. Yeah. That's with Johnny Holiday. Yeah. Johnny was a character. I really liked Johnny. What was that like? That was amazing. I mean, that was, that was trouble though. I mean, we had way too much time on our hands.

With that, we got in a bit of trouble at different times. I mean, it, it calmed down for a while and all of a sudden everyone would get bored again and start doing stupid things. But, um, it was, it was interesting. I mean, it was an interesting show and Johnny was such a good person. He, he was really sweet. I really liked him.

We got on really well. We'd go out to dinner, you know, he'd, he'd include me a lot with his group outings at the, after the show, you know, which was kind of funny because there'd be all these like huge French celebrities. And me.

Me, me wanting my steak too well done and putting Grand Marnier in my coffee and, and having, having cafe, cafe lattes. After dinner, it was like, Oh my God, it was just so. And do you speak French? You know, my French was okay, but it wasn't as good as they thought it was because when I arrived, I had a really bad cold.

So the whole nasal thing, and I talk with my hands, I don't know if you've noticed. So with talking with my hands, a really bad congestion, they thought that I was just the best French speaker they'd ever come across. And so they just prattle on, they just prattle on at me and I go, No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.

I don't understand. You know, je ne comprends. And they're like, ah, t'en a. T'en a. And laugh and walk away and I'm like, no, you don't understand. I really don't speak French that well. And Johnny would come to me and he'd say, t'en a. And I'd go, Johnny? And he'd go, how you say, ouf, ouf, is.

It's difficult, you know, and I go, okay, Johnny, you ready? You go, I go, difficult. You go, what? So, yeah, we used to joke that I was his official English translator. It's incredible.

Chelsea: And you've always retained your Australian accent, which I love.

Tana: Of course. It's the only one I have.

Chelsea: What do you still want to achieve?

I'd like to do, like, just one more really creative thing, you know, something, something incredibly creative, hopefully, that hadn't been done before, you know, I mean, I came up with a concept during COVID, which was, um, kind of unique, and I think, I think it's still a really unique thing, so stuff like that, you know, I like to think outside of the box, and, you know, people will come to me, and they'll have a, an idea, and then they'll leave it with me for a week, and I'll bring it back to them and go, But what about this?

And they're like, Oh my God, that's fabulous. You know what I mean? So creating stuff, I'd like to create something special. Yeah, something special. Whether it's a concept, or whether it's, you know, um, a story, or whether it's something like, you know, the documentary, or a film, or whatever. Something like that I think would be really nice.

Something I haven't done yet would be nice. Yeah. I love that. But it'd have to be creative.

Tana: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me on the control podcast and thank you for sharing so much wisdom through your book and your stories and for being that trailblazer and can't wait to read the new book and see what you do next.

Tana: Well, thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it.