Clare Bowditch

Produced by Chelsea Wilson.

Recorded live at The Soundbox, Always Live Festival November 19 2023

Thanks to the Always Live tech team for capturing this conversation and to Stephen Wakefield, Emily Ulman and Linda Catalano for having Control at the Soundbox.

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea: Good morning and welcome to the control podcast at the soundbox as part of always live festival. I'm Chelsea Wilson, your host, thrilled to be here with you. I'd like to acknowledge we are broadcasting this morning on the lands of the Wurrendjeri Woi Wurrung and Bunorong people of the Kulin nation and pay my deepest respects to all First Nations elders past and present and acknowledge sovereignty has never ceded. This is the Control podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring game changes and change makers in the music industry, and I am absolutely delighted to be introducing my guest, the award-winning vocalist, businesswoman, mentor mother.

Actress, broadcaster, podcaster, and author, Clare Bowditch. Clare has won the Coveted ARIA Award for Best Female for her music, the Rolling Stone Woman of the Year Award for her contribution to Australian culture, and was nominated for a Logie Award. for her role as Rosanna on the TV show Offspring. Her very first book entitled Your Own Kind of Girl won the 2020 Australian Book Industry Award for New Writer of the Year.

As a songwriter and musician, Claire has toured with artists such as Leonard Cohen, Paul Kelly, Missy Higgins, Gautier and John Butler to name just a few. And in 2020, she released an Audible original audiobook entitled Tame your inner critic, which has remained top of the audible charts since the day of release. A huge control podcast welcome to Clare Bowditch. 

Clare: G'day. That's the fanciest things I've ever done all in one row. So I can tell you as I was doing the laundry this morning, the, none of those things came to mind, but thank you for that very generous, um, 

Chelsea: Well, it's all true. This is just, this is just what you've done.

Clare: Um, I'm really old though. I've been doing it for a while, you know, so you can clock up some stuff, hey? 

Chelsea: I'm really thrilled to have you on the podcast. So many things I'd love to talk to you about, but firstly, I'd love to hone in on your creative output as a writer, a songwriter, and also an author. I heard you say that your songs have always sat in me like pets. What did you mean by that?

Clare:  Say it to me again and I'll respond. 

Chelsea: My songs have always sat in me like pets. 

Clare: So, I can't remember when I said that or how I said that, it could have been this time last year when I was in this very room for Always Live. Um, the truth is, these stories that, We pick up from the world and we carry and we for some reason continue to carry the feelings that we have They mush together with what we see in the world and the sounds that we like to make or whatever our creative outlet is And they sit there like little friends inside us.

They sit inside me waiting to be proven to exist. So when I write a book or a line or when we have a conversation like this It's recorded when I write a song It's always about proving the existence of things that all of us have inside us and we don't get to show because they're invisible and they're called feelings.

So these little, you know, I imagine, for example, my inner critic, I call, I have a name for my inner critic. I'm getting a beautiful kiss from the crowd. Thanks babes. Love you. 

Chelsea: Um, is that Frank? 

Clare: Yeah, that's Frank. So Frank was a name that I gave to this. You know, to externalize a voice of anxiety that had always hung around inside me and I know in inside so many of us and, um, you know, I would sort of tell Frank where to go and Frank would pop up and, you know, give me the usual line about, you know, good enough.

You're to this, you're to that, you're wrong here. Why bother? There's no point, etc. So all of that sort of survival brain stuff that many of us have. I called it Frank. But over time, Frank, this sort of monster of an inner critic morphed into more of a Chihuahua style of. style of creature. And just to use our imagination to deal with emotions is probably the thing that, that, um, that I've done most in my life.

Chelsea: So you kind of have an idea or a concept and it sort of sits with you for a while and you don't know when it's going to come out. Is that kind of what you mean? You pick up the guitar or you get to the piano and. 

Clare: Yeah. So for example, when you have an itch and you need to scratch it, that's, that's often how songs or stories will present themselves in me. It's not, it's not quite as, um, unpleasant as that sometimes. Actually, sometimes it really is, you know, things that like, there's a song that I wrote some years ago called the start of war, which was this line kept coming to me, you know, every day we're fighting wars with people who, who did not cause the start of war and how do you put that in a pop song. How do you live with that emotion? You know, where do you put it? So I think art has always given us these larger vessels in which we can place these complex dualities, um, and turn them into something that allows us to, to discuss further, you know, and I've always hoped that my music would do that in some way.

It's, it keeps people company, really. That's what we do when we create things in the world and put them out there. At the same time, you, uh, put yourself up for criticism, you know, you, you're, you're, it's one thing to do at home and it's very necessary for us to have that everyday creativity at home, because that helps us stay sane, you know, to have a little, like sometimes when I'm doing the washing, I've mentioned it twice, but I like to hang it out, all the white stuff.

I think of my mother, the way that she did it, she did that and thought of her grandmother. All of that everyday, um, creative play is really important, but the stuff that you put into the world, that's, You know, I, I just take my hat off to all of the, the musicians who are playing as part of Always Live.

All of, you know, Emma Donovan, who we just had in. All of the stuff inside her that she shares in this beautiful format that we get to enjoy and take in. 

Chelsea: So you're currently working on your next solo album. It's been a while.

Clare: Yeah, babe. It's been a while. Do you wanna know the story? 

Chelsea: Yeah. And how's it coming along? How's the writing? So I heard that you during the lockdown era of the pandemic, 'cause I don't like this post pandemic term. I call it the lockdown era.  'cause it's still a pandemic. 

Clare: Nice. Right. I, I like, I like the way he's talking. Look, I'll go with you.

Chelsea: But during those lockdowns you did write, 'cause a lot of us didn't, a lot of us were just a bit too traumatized and you know, you know, made banana bread and other hobbies took on. But you got into writing.

Clare: Look, it might have been overstated. I mean, it was such a long period of time. So we're talking about a period, really, of two years. And there was a good year there where, you know, to be honest, I was in just absolute shock, like everyone else. I didn't know what was going on. I'd lost my career overnight, my way of making an income, my outlet, my identity as a musician.

And I was also going through a period where I was losing my mother, who was the anchor of my life, as many of us Um, you know, you're lucky to have a mother who is so annoying with their love that, you know, they, they bother to really, really love you. My mom did and she was sick during, she got sick just as I'd released my, my, uh, memoir at the end of 2019 and she passed away on August the 11th in.

2020. Um, so that was during lockdown. So really, I sat in a rocking chair looking at a wall for a lot of that time, is the truth of it. You know, it was a, and trying to homeschool my children. I had a daughter in year 12. Um, there was a lot, a lot of time where I really couldn't do anything, but there, there came a point where you, you sort of look at that wall for so long, and you think, I must do something, I must do anything. And I remember just sort of, uh, bending down and picking up some knitting needles. And if I'd done a row of knitting for the day, you know, success. We'd done something creative with our day. And what happened was, uh, I slowly started to pick up my guitar again.

It had been sitting sitting there and being brought out for gigs and [00:08:00]functions and so on. But me and my guitar, our relationship hadn't been terrifically close for years because I was raising children and making a living and doing what we all do in the world, caring for friends and, you know, um, maintaining a marriage and, and trying to, to just do the basics really.

So, to have that second year to really be able to sit back with my guitar, try new tunings. Remember what it was like when I was in my early twenties and I was free to write and explore and make mistakes. That was wonderful, and that bit was really, really useful. So I started writing again, and I've actually always written a little, like, I think over the last 10 years, there's not been an album out from me.

I think I've released two songs, but. Between you and I and, and you know, these four walls, I've written about 380 songs during that time. Wow. For me, you know, half finished. Most of them completely crap. I've got to say, I've got like a one to 100 ratio of good song to poor song. Um, everyone has a different process.

I overwrite. It's the same with a book. You know, you need 60, 80, 000 words. I might write 400, 000 and I don't say that to, to, to imagine that they are good words, like I really have to write a lot of crap before I get anything that means anything. I hope that language isn't too strong for anyone in the morning.

So that, that's, that's, that's why in some ways we had to try and make something useful out of that lockdown era because it was devastating. 

Chelsea: Yeah, it really was. And we still haven't fully recovered. 

Clare: Aren't we proud, though, of how quick people have been to snap up tickets? You know, this is one of the things, Matt Gudinski, who's the chair of Always Live, and I'm a volunteer on the board there, I'm very proud to be, because this was a dream of Michael Gudinski's, that we would, you know, um, have, uh, Victoria as, cementing its reputation as a music capital of Australia, um, perhaps of the world, some might say, you know, it's one of those cities.

And so to be able to invest in that and have all of these incredible musicians come along, have something like Soundbox where emerging artists and established artists can sit here in a glass box and look out on the world and you guys can look out on us and we get to know each other a little better.

This is precious stuff. So The, the, the beautiful surprise with this series of events, it's 17 days, events going across 30 suburbs, even though we're still in shock and recovering from what happened to the music industry during that period of time, people have been buying tickets quick smart and still in these economic times, knowing that the value of music.

Music is significant. We still want to come together. You know, I'm, you might hear my voice is a little dusty at the moment. That's because last night I played a wonderful show, um, until deep into the night, um, which was a show called Taylor Made with eight or nine of my fantastic girlfriends, um, Singing in a room at Northcote Theatre with 1500 people singing back to us Taylor Swift songs.

It was just this little idea that a woman called Clementine Ford had, got together with, you know, Lisa Mitchell. Kate Miller Heidke had COVID and couldn't come along, but Emily Warramurra and Charlie and Alex the Astronaut, like just wonderful human beings. Um, Sophie J. Smith. I, I know that I'm, uh, Whoelse was in there?

A whole bunch of wonderful people. We got to sing together and the room got to sing back to us. And I sat there with my hand on my heart thinking, This is it. This is the thing that matters. It was beautiful.

Chelsea: That connection. And yeah, a huge shout out to the programmers and everyone working at the Always Live Festival for putting on this great event, um, as someone who's worked in festivals and programming as well. I know how hard it is. This is a mammoth undertaking.

Clare: It is. And we're enormously fortunate because we have at the heart of our programming team, a young woman called Emily Ulman, who herself is a musician. So to have someone with that music knowledge and also the kind of skills that most of us don't have, which means she can be organized, um, and, and really get those big name acts like Christina Aguilera played in our town on Saturday, thanks to Em and the Always Live team.

You know, she would be the first to say that it's a group effort, but it's pretty precious what we're doing here. It's a dream. We couldn't have imagined it two years ago.

Chelsea:  Yeah. It's just incredible. Speaking of the Taylor Made Taylor Swift show, what do you think it is about Taylor Swift's music that resonates on this epic level?

Clare: I mean, it's huge. It is. For those who don't know, um, who haven't been indoctrinated, there's a term called a Swifty. And a Swifty is a dedicated, lifelong fan of a songwriter called Taylor Swift, who started in her teens, um, writing country pop songs and has developed as an artist with many, um, ebbs and flows and, um, adventures along the way. And she's now in her thirties and she's continued to write. So there's an anomaly there we don't often see now two decades in. female singer songwriters who've had the level of success, um, and the ability to output, you know, songs the way she has. I cannot, I'm just trying to get my head around how to explain the feeling of love and, and, and again, companionship that these Swifties, these dedicated fans have.

They're from all ages. Now last night at this show, um, a beautiful girl called Lola. was sitting in the corner, um, to stage right. And next to her was sitting Alex, the astronaut's grandmother who was coming for her first ever gigs. We had this maybe 13 year old, it was an all ages show. And, um, and Alex's grandma who said it was the best show she'd ever seen.

The only show she'd ever seen, which was wonderful. So, but Lola had made us. these little bracelets, which are cool. And there's this sort of tradition among Swifties where they, they make these beautiful little beaded bracelets and swap them between each other. Now, two stories. My, I've got a friend who's a therapist and she said that week that Taylor Swift tickets were released in her therapy room, there were people weeping, um, because they couldn't get tickets.

Um, and I had a taxi driver. Take me home, an Uber driver take me home from the Christine Aguilera concert. A Taylor Swift song came on and he told me that a woman sat in his, in his Uber and wept for half an hour when a Taylor Swift song came on the other day. Why do people connect so strongly? Same way, you know, it's different but same.

The way we connect with someone like Joni Mitchell, who puts her heart on her sleeve and says the things that we're all feeling. Taylor Swift does that in a pop format that's really relatable to a lot of people who feel that their feelings aren't represented or that they've been dissed in some way. A lot of her songs are about having been treated poorly and her flipping that.

You know, you take a song like Shake It Off, haters gonna Hate, I'm just gonnaShake It Off. Simple lines that people fall in love with. So. I can't really explain the phenomenon except I'm truly delighted by it, you know, truly delighted. I didn't know that I would love it that much. I've always loved Taylor Swift songs, but I didn't know that it would mean so much to so many people.

Chelsea: I don't know that I'm a massive, you know, Swifty in terms of buying her records, but I just love her, like, and the way that she's challenging the music industry and re recording albums. Um, send. And speaking out against the way that musicians in terms of our business practices, how things have been shaped with the massive mechanism of major labels.

And it's really exciting to see how she negotiates for things in her recent film and how she's a producer on that. And she's really paving new ways and following. Following on from other artists like Courtney Love and people like that who have gone to bat in court for the rights of their music and things like that.

Clare: So it's really exciting to see. For anyone who doesn't understand that reference to re recording her own songs, you know, basically that was, correct me if I'm wrong, but her song rights were bought, um, she, she, she signed a publishing deal and then a management breakup occurred and they took all of her song rights and her original recordings.

Actually, the rights of the original recordings of songs like Shake It Off with them and whatever happened she couldn't get ownership of her songs. So she did a radical thing, brilliant thing, re recorded all of those albums, um, so if you look on, for example, Spotify, you'll see Taylor Swift, Shake It Off, Taylor's version.

And she's able to then continue to collect royalties and have a sense of justice about the fact that her songs were taken. She re recorded them to sound like the originals and it worked. So she's a woman who always finds a workaround. I like that.

Chelsea: She's very creative as are you. And I wanted to talk about your song, Your Own Kind of Girl, which is also the title of your bestselling memoir, which I highly recommend everybody goes and picks up today if you don't have it. I particularly love these lyrics and I quote, they sit high in their towers, writing lists about what women need with no regard, no understanding, no real care about the pain they breed. My hope for you, my darling girl, be brave and build a dream in your own size. Cause otherwise you're buying crap that you don't need to feed a world that will not feed you.

I love those lines. A recent study in the U S found that. Over 28 percent of people feel ashamed of their bodies while watching music videos. Do you think the music industry has a responsibility to consider negative mental health outcomes when it comes to developing our marketing imagery?

Clare: Yes. I really do. I really do. I just had a chat about that in the car with. with another Uber driver who was a lovely chap who was reflecting on, he, he loves rap music and he was saying, you know, he likes old school, anything past Jay Z. He says he thinks they lost the plot because then instead of being a story about origin and um, ownership and telling the truth about what was going on in, in the world of these rappers, it became about.

The image of accruing females who were of a certain look and money of a certain size. And he was talking about, you know, how the, the music industry shaped that, you know, shaped that story about something that was. Impossible, unreachable, untenable, we all age, our bodies all change, um, we know money doesn't make us happy, et cetera, but it buys into the story of, if we get these things, we will be happy, and that is a dead end story, um, but it can make a lot of money for people along the way because we buy things that tell us that story.

And so that song was written in the light of just looking around the world, having my own body, which I always refer to as a piano accordion body, which would wax and wane in size, um, always had. And that was, you know, pretty normal and natural, really. When we're teenage girls, we actually have to put weight on our hips so that our estrogen can collect and, and we can, you know, start becoming women in the world.

Um, and, and have our first periods and, you know, be reproductive human beings, um, if we're lucky. So all of these things, but yet we're made to feel shame or we do feel sensitive. We do want to belong and all of that is normal. But, of course we want to belong, because we're survival animals. But when being belong, being someone who belongs means changing who you are, starving yourself, um, picking on yourself, comparing yourself, we can't win.

And I know that from my own experience. So that song was a love letter really to all of the other human beings who'd felt in that same way. That we buy it. You know, we buy into the myth there's got to be a bigger dream because otherwise we can't win. 

Chelsea: After dealing with a terrifying amount of online fatphobic abuse, Lizzo was quoted as saying, at this point, I realized that my mere existence is a form of activism.

Tina Arena spoke out about ageism in the music industry at Big Sound in her keynote and how rare it is to hear Australian women over 40. I mean, a lot of women in their thirties and forties leave the music industry when they have kids. And I think you've been such an incredible role model about speaking about that juggle and being a mom, because it's a normal part of life that we shouldn't be hiding away.

Um, as a working mom and a creative who keeps on generating material, how do you think the industry can support women more so that we retain talent and we see more women and diverse people still practicing? 

Clare: There are some really simple things that can be done. Um, and they all start with the same premise, which is to care.

So To care about the fact, to create spaces that allow for people with different life, um, experiences, different abilities, like, you know, there are artists who can't get onto the stage at their own show because they have to be lifted up because there's no way to get into that venue. A lot of these things are, you know, these are old buildings that were not built with the consideration of a broader population, you know.

All of these things. If we care and we think, and we ask our artists, you know, how can, how can we make this safe and good for you? Then we have half a chance. So I'll give an example. I, I mentioned this show that we played with a bunch of our friends, um, over the past few days, these Tailormade shows. And this young artist was in there, Sophie j Smith, and her mom was in there.

Um. And she was the youngest and I was the oldest performer in this, in this group. And one of the organisers was saying, how wonderful that Sophia gets to have this safe, normal space. You know, it's loosey goosey backstage, we're all doing our thing. But it's, it's, it's safe, you know. Her mum could Could rest assured that we're all keeping an eye out for each other.

I can tell you from experience, this is not the way it always is backstage. I remember struggling to find anywhere to feed my child that was private backstage. Little things like that, um, if we're able to be articulate about what we need and not be shot down. shot down and shut down, we have a better chance of sustaining our careers.

Another simple example, you know, a sound person who, who um, our crew are extraordinary and so experienced and professional and every now and again, there's an old school thing that happens where, and it's, I have to say from my experience, I've noticed that it happened to me a lot more than to my, you know, to John Butler and my male counterparts.

And John will be the first to point that out. I might ask for something in my fallback wedge. Um, like I might say, I can't really hear myself. And there's occasionally this thing that happens where someone, instead of turning you up in that wedge, might say, well, just sing louder, love. You know, it's, it doesn't happen anywhere near as much anymore, but to be shot down when you're that vulnerable can really put people off their game, um.

So look, there are many, many things structurally that we can do to include more diverse voices. It's more interesting that way, you know, who wants the same old story from the same old perspective? We, we don't. So there's all sorts of, um, really wonderful, brave performers who we've got as part of this Always Live crew.

But just here in Australia, I think everyone's starting to understand each other a little more. That's hopeful for me. 

Chelsea: In last year's end of year ARIA top 100 album charts, you know, those end of the year, biggest 100 albums of the year. There were only six Australian albums in that list.

And out of those six Australian albums, none of them were by female artists. What do you think's going on here? Do you think Australians don't care about our own music or is it just too hard for our artists to break through and compete with international acts? Is it too hard for us to cut through without the sort of major capital that the major labels have?

Clare: Tell me what you think. I'm interested in your perspective, Chels. Tell me what you think. What do you think it is? 

Chelsea: Well, And this is your interview, not mine. 

Clare: But, um, well, you've got insight into this 

Chelsea: as well. Yeah, look, I think it's a number of factors. I've been very, I've been quite vocal and quite passionate about wanting to see a change in radio quotas.

And I still stand by that. I want to hear more Australian music on the radio. And I think we can see the effects that it has in other territories. Such as Canada, um, the US, I mean, in America they don't need to be told to play American music. They love American music, they love their own, and they're proud of their own music.

And that's cultural. So there's a few things happening here. I think culturally, there's the cultural cringe that we still have where a lot of people think American films are better than Australian films. American theater, American musicals are better than Australian musicals. And therefore, by extension, I think people think American music is better than Australian music.

So there's that part as well. And you can see as well, I was talking to artist manager Jess Keely, who was saying that, you know, even when radio, Double J, Spotify, local media, even when they are championing Australian artists, it's not necessarily rolling through to sales. So, I think there's a combination of things happening, but I really would love to see that increase in Australian content on our airwaves. I think that, that would make a difference. I really do.

Clare: I couldn't agree more. And at the same time, sorry to say it, but airwaves are becoming less and less relevant because now people have playlists. People don't necessarily release albums. Uh, in the same way. There are, there are many, many, many, many artists like Emily Wormer, or Greta Ray, or, who, release singles along the way and the singles get played on playlists which are outside of the quota data collection.

So the old school model was here's my career, here's why you don't hear, you never heard someone like me on commercial radio and you probably never will. Commercial radio exists. to sell advertising. In order to sell advertising you have to play pleasant enough music or interesting enough music for that particular genre or narrow enough music to attach advertising to it.

Someone like me, my songs are always too intense or, you know, um, didn't fit that sort of neat bill. We'd go into radio. Um, my manager will pitch a song and for years and years, this is before 2008, we were told lovely song. Um, we've already got a female, Australian female on radio this week. So, um, We don't need you.

Chelsea: But I mean that happens in the, for the pop stars too.

Clare: Yeah, but that's right. I mean, Kylie was told, like Missy Higgins might be told they've got Kylie on or Kylie. We're not all, you know, so there was this sort of idea of, We're all the same person. It's ridiculous. Um, you know, that all females are the same person.

It was ridiculous. There's a whole lot of young, this is what gives me hope, there's a young generation, um, or a newly brave older generation of singer songwriters who are just going outside of that model. They actually don't need commercial radio to make their career anymore. they're doing it outside of that model.

So in 2008, our government started investing in a thing called Sounds Australia, which, you know, Millie Millgate and a guy called Glenny G started taking Australian artists over to things like South by Southwest and pitching them. When you hear of the success of Gautier or Tempered Trap, they are You know, that, that particular small little, you know, um, shoestring, uh, shoestraps, you know, what do you say, bootstraps, like, yeah, just that little organisation were able to present Australian artists in this global field.

Now we've got artists like Troye Sivan, um, G Flip, who are doing this work internationally that was made possible by structural support. Millie Millgate was the one who was able to help Australian artists who are, you know, effective our Olympic sort of level, um, new musicians during the pandemic, get those visas to go over and present their work to the world.

So I think in a way. Australian artists are more globally recognised now. If the commercial radio here, or if, if they don't understand the value of what we've got, I think that they're a dying art, because we have the most extraordinary breadth of talent here, and you've got to keep up, because otherwise your models can be redundant.

My daughter, none of my children listen to commercial radio, at all. You know, it's not even part of their world. Um, excuse me, getting all croaky. So in a way, I think I gave up on it a long time ago and started thinking about other ways to do it. In the meantime, to have You know, this is, it's, I'm not naïve, like, commercial radio is still everywhere.

To have quotas would be the least we could do to support our local industry. I mean, it just makes absolutely no sense that we're not supporting this rich territory that the rest of the world are all recognising. It's madness. So I couldn't agree more to think of the ways that we can ensure that, you know, Australian artists are supporting, um, big names, to help people have those, the ecosystem that allows you to have a career and make a living.

Anything that we can do as Australians to support that, to, to go to a show, to buy, um, you know, to play something, to buy some merch. We're doing a good deed because it was Australian music and Australian artists that got us through the emotional disaster of the lockdowns. The necessary. Disastrous lockdowns.

We were devastated as a people. We went to those who could teach us something hopeful. The artists who were contributing their time to isolate or, you know, other, other heart lifting, um, hope giving things. So you gotta go where life is. You gotta, you gotta support the Australian artists. Otherwise You're just going to miss out.

I don't even, like, I just, I just think it makes no sense not to get that equation. 

Chelsea: Yeah, I don't really understand it either. Um, you know, and whenever I get the opportunity to be in a room with anybody from commercial radio, I'm always wanting to have that chat and say, why? You know, like, I mean, there's It's proven that the repetition is what builds fans.

So that's how we, we got to this point where we have this huge Swifties fan base, the Ed Sheeran fan base. I mean, when you hear the same song on repeat, it gets stuck in your head. We call it an earworm. 

The repetition is what creates an opportunity for you to fall in love with the song, you start humming it, you think, I love this song, I want to hear it again, then maybe then you'll go and purchase it or you'll hear the song at a live show and you'll buy that merch and you become that dedicated fan.

But if you don't get played on repetition, and I feel like sometimes that's where, you know, community radio does an incredible job of playing local artists, but the repetition isn't necessarily there. So even when you get the commercial radio support, it's not necessarily. enough to build that kind of fan base.

So for me, I just kind of think if you could give 10 percent of the Ed Sheeran time at least to Australian artists, you know, if Ed Sheeran can come here and sell out 12 Rod Lavers. Yeah. I mean, if we gave some of that air time to some local artists, maybe they could sell out, I don't know, The Corner or 

Clare: Exactly. I don't want to talk on behalf of Ed Sheeran, but I reckon Ed Sheeran would be up for that. I reckon Ed Sheeran would go, please, Australia, take it. You know, he's such a fan of our country. He was a dear friend of Michael Godinski's. He's, he's, he, he loved our people. Pink is the same, you know, for some reason.

I mean, we're the country that launched Madonna. Like, like we, we've got an eye on things and, and artists love, big artists love this country. I reckon they'd gladly hand over a bit of their radio time to support our industry. 

Chelsea: Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I do. I read that you were touring in Berlin with Gautier and had the realisation of what it would take to break into other territories internationally, and decided to reframe your goals and focus on your career here and, and life as an Australian artist.

And so you really have created a portfolio career as they call it, that enables you to earn income through multiple practices.

Clare: And so that's a fancy way of saying, I'm lucky I get to do interesting work in a few different fields.

Chelsea: Muso who hustles is what I also call it too. But how do you ensure that you don't burn out juggling multiple things like being on the radio, writing, touring, you know, how do you go about scheduling out your year ahead?

Clare: I do burn out. Regularly. And then you'll see me going from, you know, why did I, so, we'll go back to that moment in time in Berlin, so for a couple of years, my family and I, we had two 18 month olds and a five year old, our identical boys, and Asha, our girl, and my husband, I'm very lucky to have a wonderful, wonderful dude in my life who was my drummer and became, you know, my husband, my producer, and, uh, his name's Marty Brown.

Marty, the five of us, we toured back and forth between Europe and here. We called it a random creative adventure because I wasn't getting played on commercial radio here in Australia and there's a limit to how broad and how, um, you know, it's difficult to make your living without having had any sort of mass recognition, you know, quote unquote of your work because the opportunities then don't come.

So I was doing okay. But we wanted to broaden things a bit. And again, this was before things like Sound Australia, it was before SIA. It was really before we'd had a story of Australian artists, musicians being able to be successful regularly overseas. But we made a crack of it, um, a good crack of it. And we recorded at Hansa Studios where David Bowie recorded Heroes.

Um, we made. What I think was just such a beautiful, um, I love the album that we made during that time. It was called Modern Day Addiction and it was ambitious. Um, I listen back to it now and I'm like, good. You know, we, we really gave it a red hot crack. 

Chelsea: It's so good and I always think of the cage. 

Clare: is this the film clip we're talking about? 

Chelsea: The film clip, do you still have her? 

Clare: We actually donated her back to the puppet, she was terrifying. So the film clip was me carrying a huge cage of myself in a cage. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. It was terrifying, the children were afraid. So we had to donate that back, it was just sort of sat in the shed for a while.

Um, And what I realized at the end of that, I was actually pretty tired by about 20, 2009, 2010. I was pretty burnt out. We'd always said that when it didn't suit the family anymore, we would pause on our touring. And one day my daughter said to me, Mum, um, Have you ever considered opening a cake shop? And that was like, I still get really emotional thinking about it because I said to her, why?

And she said, oh, it would just be really nice to sort of have some, you know, to, I think she was telling us that she wanted to anchor. And there was also a lot of talk of guinea pigs at that time. So we made the radical choice to have a guinea pig. I didn't open a cake shop, but do you bake? Yeah, I do. I do.

I do. So we started staying home a little more. And that meant thinking of other ways. You know, I was tired of, of, of really trying to, um, trying to work within a system before there was streaming, before there was double J. Once you age out of triple J. You get that little tap. And where do you go? Where do you go?

As it, you know, I don't know why, but that's what happens. Um, I think it'squite ageist actually to, to imagine that, that people of all different ages don't need music by people of all different ages. That's, but that's the way it's set up as a, a place to. Help emerging Australian artists launch. I respect that.

So I started making other dreams come true, which were you know, I started a lovely love project called big heart of business Which was about teaching creative people about business and business people about creativity because I kept getting asked to mentor people and I I couldn't Do it all but between Marty and myself we had some handy stuff to pass on then I burnt out there because it It grew too big and I didn't want to sell it because I knew it would just become a commercial thing.

So we, you know, we parked it, it did its good work for a few years and then the conversation really expanded about the importance of um, care in business and ethics and a triple bottom line and all that stuff's lovely, like normal and good now. The world changed. Artists got a right of reply because of social media, but I'd stepped out during that time.

Um, I got the opportunity to go to radio and do broadcasting on ABC Radio Melbourne for a couple of years. That was wonderful too, but again, it came to a certain point where I realised I'm doing 26 really interesting interviews a week. Um, I'm on this side of the mic and I'm not making my own music and I'm not, I'm not writing the book I promised myself I'd make.

So I, you know, that was wonderful when I bowed out. Um, so I burn out, I go hard and burn out regularly and then need to retreat. Uh, it's not a great way to do it, but it certainly keeps it interesting. And in those retreat times, we've learned to live very well. on beans, you know, like, I don't, we don't, we're really lucky, hi boys, we're really lucky, waving to some mates, um, to make our living as Australian artists, but it's very hard to make, I mean, we've never had the hit, which allows you to sort of coast, and in a way I'm glad about that, because it's kept our world really interesting, but I promised myself that when my kids are a little older, I'd come back to music, and that's now.

Chelsea: And the new record is coming next year, we hope. 

Clare: Can you believe my record company? Like, I have a licensing deal with, uh, with Island Records through Universal. They have been waiting 10 years for this album. We hear a lot of, and rightly so, a lot of criticism of, um, major labels.They've done a lot of dodgy things over the years.

I can't believe, though, that support and how much it's changed, like, they've hung in with me for all of this time. Oh, there's 

Chelsea: definitely some really good people working in those, those spaces. Absolutely. 

Clare: I don't know what time it is, Chelsea. I'm just loving this convo, but I could have, we could have, like, it could be like four in the time.

Chelsea:

We're all right. We're all right. We're all right. Uh, you just touched on there big hearted business. Can you tell us a little bit about the myth of work life balance? Because that was something that you were talking about as part of this program, right? 

Clare: I don't know who or how it started, but, um, the idea of having it all never rang true for me.

I couldn't, you know, I just, the idea of the superwoman, uh, the mother. 

Chelsea: Girl boss culture. Isn't that over now? Like, I think the younger generation, they're like, no, we don't do that. We're about leisure. It's like sodifferent.

Clare: And good on them, you know. Um. But it's, it's always been a myth that you could have it all at the same time.

We make choices in life, really. And I think a lot of our conversation was, um, you know, we'd hold these wonderful large events where we get to have, you know, Jo's Tobacco come and, and we put on the, the world's, apparently the, our hemisphere's first no waste conference back in 20, oh, when was it? God, 2014.

Um, at the same venue I played at last night, back then it was a pretty dodgy, um, wedding reception center called the Regal Ballroom. Fantastic. Now it's this wonderful, you know, they've revealed a wall where there's now stained glass that we can see and it was very, very grand. But we got people in a room and we got to have a conversation about this is what it's really like.

These are the tough bits. And how do we make better choices? You know, how, what do we actually want? And what is it? Because there's this myth about. Fame, and that meaning something, and that's supposed to be the goal, you know, that we're supposed to go huge. And I was always like, why can't we just, like, I don't need to go huge.

I really just want to be making my living doing things that mean something. And to be in a room with a whole lot of other human beings, mainly women, who hadn't been able to have that conversation with other women. That's precious to me. I'm so glad we did that. But I just wanted it to stay precious. It's the kind of idea that took off and you could have commercialised.

Um, and to do that you would have destroyed the very true thing that was sitting in there, which is, you know, honest, good conversation and support of each other. I could not have a career with, I mean. There's no way you can be an artist in Australia and make your living without the support of So many other artists for a start so many other people who think really differently to you who have the cerebral Organizational skills that you know for reasons that it makes sense artists don't always have and that's because we're always gathering ideas You know we take two or more ideas smush them together and put them into something.

But sometimes there are thousands of different ideas. We're taking multiple strands and try. I've just realized I'm probably on camera here. Where is the camera? Oh, hi guys. How are you? You've seen my like dusty face up close. Hi. Um, anyway, the, the, the point of that is. We need, we actually need each other, and we need the Australian public to support what we do too, and they do, they show up for us, you know, and we don't need, it's not like, you know, the old idea of needing mass success in order to be able to make work that means something to you, no, in order to, you know, to lose your marriage, and like if I'd kept touring the way I was touring, I would have either been, for me, you know, my kids wouldn't have ever got to go to conventional school.

The stress and strain of it was way too much and I thought, can we just do it in a way that makes sense for our family and, you know, yeah, do it your own way. DIY, mate.

Chelsea: So as a business woman, a business mentor. I'd really like to ask you about this concept of micro businesses that a lot of the organizations are now referring to musicians as micro business.

I think a lot of musicians don't like to think of themselves as a business. I mean, I personally hate the word brand. I don't like thinking of myself as a brand or my music as a product. It feels really corporate, but I do understand that, you know, working in an industry that is a commercial space. We need to find a way to resolve that conflict. How do you approach this? Do you kind of switch in between modes of thinking as Claire Bowditch, an artist versus CEO of Claire Bowditch Pty Ltd? Do you go Claire Bowditch trademark? What aligns with the brand? How do you structure your kind of, you know, planning about your career?

Clare: I've gone in and out of different ways of doing that. Um, I've never ever been, uh, comfortable with that terminology either because I actually think what you make with art, you know, quote unquote, or what you can build with a Creative career is so much more, so much more meaningful than business, you know, than, than, than the idea of just making the money.

So I, you know, that's clear, but you have to make a living in order to bring this work into the world. So I had to just find some really useful, simple ways of thinking about it. Like someone at the Big Heart of Business conference, I think it was Fran Hay, someone very clever. Maybe from Frankie Magazine, came and talked about marketing and, and this was, was how Fran put it.

It, it's probably a, a strange analogy, but it, you know, um. People, you've got hungry people out there and you've got a banana that you could be giving them. And if they don't know that you exist, they don't know that you're holding a banana for them. And it's hard to get our head around, but you have to, if you want to make a career, make a name for yourself.

A name being people have to get to know you and you have to get to know them. That's an audience and um, an artist's relationship. So if we can think about it. As though, if we can really understand the value of the things that we create when we're creating creative things, and we can understand that it's actually a little bit selfish not to be, you know, if we, if we long to share it, we might have something useful to say.

And so if we have the guts to stand up and say it. to give that food to the people who are hungry for it. You know, the people who are hungry for, you know, obscure things like, I wrote a whole album of songs about grief. Who the, who the Dickens knew that, that was going to be a success. But, it was because it gave me the feedback of going, okay, if I follow my instincts and talk about the things that are I'm struggling with and try and make them listenable or enjoyable or make sense to me.

They're probably going to make sense to other people. I am going to have to get my head around putting my face on a poster if I'm going to do that. I could be a songwriter behind the scenes or, you know, choose another profession. But if I want to make a career as a singer songwriter, people are going to have to know me.

And therefore my decision early on was I will be myself. I will not trap myself by pretending to be someone I'm not early on, because then you're stuffed. Like many of my contemporaries in the early noughties, we all had this little thing called NICE, which was the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme. So if you didn't have it, you know, if you were unemployed, um, 

Chelsea: It's still going. I think it's just got a different name. 

Clare: We all did CERT4 in business down at RMIT, six week course that taught us how to think about things like spreadsheets and forward planning, calendars and so on. And asking for what we needed to be paid, and working out how much we needed to be paid. You know, to pay for excess baggage, or um, band members, or all the rest of it.

That's really useful basic knowledge. You gotta get your head around that stuff, otherwise you can't have a long career. But it's just tools that help you do this thing that you think means something. So that, I mean, I've got a really simple approach to it. I'm like, does that feel good? Does that work? Do I like working with those people?

Is that enough money? Or, you know, to be able to do it and not lose money? Is this the kind of thing that I don't care if we make money? It just really matters to me and I'll donate my time to it. You start to get smarter over the years and then you get the feedback from people that what you're doing matters.

And then you can keep going. 

Chelsea: Claire, it's so great to chat to you and I'm so excited about your new record. I think we've got time for a live song. 

Clare: I'll tell you what, I'm gonna Look, I, what time is it? I mean, I'm gonna play you a little something. Why don't I play? We've got three minutes. Three minutes.

Fantastic. Okay. I'm gonna maybe just play you something that isn't finished is a work in progress. Oh, I love that. I really like inspiring people to just give it a crack. You have to start somewhere. 

I wrote this song, um, last year. I started writing it when I couldn't go to the Hanging Rock, um, concert with Nick Cave and Courtney Barnett. And I'd promised Courtney I'd show up and I couldn't because of circumstances. So I wrote this one called Miranda.

[plays song] 

Chelsea: Thank you so much, Claire Bowditch, thank you so much for being here at the Sound Box for the Control podcast. You can check out control podcast.com to listen back to the episode. 

Clare: Can I thank you for your really thoughtful questions and for what you're doing here. This box is a place where, I mean, we've, you don't, like, this is a beautiful thing that you're doing here.

Thank you. 

Chelsea: Oh, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Clare: Fare thee well.