Nat Bartsch
This episode was produced, edited and transcribed by Chelsea Wilson.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
jazz, play, music, piece, piano, record, album, ensemble, world, classical, write, musicians, composer, industry, genre, stage, artists
TRANSCRIPT
Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women working in the music and creative industries. I’m your host, Chelsea Wilson and in this episode I’m speaking to Melbourne based pianist and composer, Nat Barstch.
Internationally renowned, Nat’s compositions explore the spaces between neoclassical, chamber music and jazz. She has released records on both ABC Jazz and ABC Classic labels, and is one of a small handful of artists to be ARIA nominated in both jazz and classical categories.
Nat has become most well known for her lullabies, which, during early motherhood, saw her create a new suite of work designed to soothe babies to sleep, but also be meaningfully enjoyable for adults. The resulting album, Forever, and No Time At All was released in 2018 on ABC Classic.
As a chamber music composer, Nat has been commissioned to write pieces for Inventi Ensemble, Plexus Collective, Solstice Trio, The Muses Trio, Matt Withers & Sally Whitwell. She is currently studying a Masters of Composition at the Melbourne Conservatorium of Music.
Nat has been awarded the 2021 Merlyn Myer Commission, the 2020 Catherine Mary Sullivan scholarship, 2020 Classical:NEXT Artistic Associate fellowship, 2019 Johnny Dennis Music Award, and the Melbourne Prize for Music Development Award to name a few.
As a mental health advocate, Nat has undertaken research exploring the two-way link between mental health and creativity which has been presented at a variety of conferences.
In this conversation I ask Nat about developing her album Forever and No Time At All, how she approaches composing commissions, the differences between the classical and jazz music scenes and how we can all support better mental health in the music industry.
This is Nat Bartsch, in Control.
Chelsea
Hi Nat Thanks for joining me on the Control podcast. Great to see you.
Nat
Great to see you too. Thanks, Chelsea.
Chelsea
I'd firstly love to chat to you about your most recent release hope. Can you tell us about this project? And why the concept of hope?
Nat
Why not in these difficult times. So I guess for me, prior to hope I'd released two albums of lullabies. And both of them provided a lot of lovely feedback from the audience, particularly around the importance of the music to help people cope with difficult things. It wasn't just about sending babies to sleep. But people were using this music to support all sorts of grief and trauma and mental illness. And I realised that that objective was something I wanted to carry through to my next record. And so I planned to write an album that was hopeful sounding kind of lullaby like but a little bit more elaborate, and responding to things like Donald Trump being President of the United States and climate change and those things that were really on our mind back a few years ago. The problem was that once I started writing it, there were even more pressing things on our minds. Climate change really came to the forefront through the black summer bushfires. And then, of course, after that was COVID-19. And it sort of felt insincere to say that I was writing a truly hopeful album. I see, now the title of the album is an abbreviation of hopeful and hopeless, because I think a lot of us, we sat on this spectrum where depending on the day, and our perspective, we would look at the situation in one way or the other. And so it's still, I think, a very cathartic and peaceful and optimistic sounding album a lot of the time. But I guess it's an album that's trying to create a space for us to acknowledge the stuff that's happened for us and the struggles and the grief that we've all endured in different ways. But by the end track, hopefully, people are walking out feeling a sense of optimism for what lies ahead of us.
Chelsea
It's got a really beautiful meditative sound, like a lot of your discography does. How does it feel when you're playing that repertoire? Do you go into this very relaxed state?
Nat
Yeah. I mean, you have to concentrate a lot, as all musicians do on stage. I think one of the reasons I compose music like that, is an attempt to kind of regulate my own emotions and sensory experience of the world. And if that translates to other people having that experience then that's really good. And I think because I use a lot of ostinato, those, you know, repeated patterns that come through it a lot in neoclassical music and minimalism, that there's definitely a kind of meditative outcome from playing something over and over like that, and particularly when I play with my jazz quartet, playing this music, because it's like a real ensemble focused approach. There's this real, by the time we get to the end of a set, I'm sort of just floating off the stage, because it's really, it's really meditative and lovely to play with everyone.
Chelsea
Well, you definitely create that feeling. It's really stunning.
Nat
Thank you.
Chelsea
The record Hope was produced by a longtime collaborator of yours, the wonderful Luke Howard, why do you think you two work together so well? What's the magic ingredient? And how did you to approach this particular project?
Nat
Well, Luke would say he wasn't a co-producer with me, he just pressed record. (laughs) So I should qualify that, because he always interrupts me when I say we co-produced it. But we have made several records together. And I do see him as a co-producer, because there's a wealth of knowledge that he brings into the record making process that I so far have had to tap into, particularly on the tech side, I'm getting a lot better at cultivating ambient electronics, and, you know, understanding a lot more about the recording process at a sort of technical level. But I think that's one of the reasons why we work together so well is we kind of have these different skill sets that we can bring to a project together. I'm kind of the planner, producer, marketer, hustler-type person. And then Luke is often more in a kind of technical capacity, engineering a record or, you know, working on the tech specs for a live show. And so we sort of balance out our time with these different things. Aesthetically, we're very aligned. And also our personalities are very similar. And, but then it's also funny because I think, in a way, we're kind of like yin and yang, in the same genre, like Luke's particularly Luke’s newest album, there's like a lot of darkness in it and mine is like the light fluffy stuff. So it's like we complement each other. But we also have our own musical space. I guess it's like a Venn diagram, there's some overlap. But it's not all the same. And we did both come from a jazz background. And so I think that's one of the main reasons why we collaborate so well together as we think about music in a similar way. And we can bring that sort of improvisational approach to the music, which, perhaps particularly in the neoclassical world, and also in core classical, obviously, that's a skill set that not everybody has. And we're also just good mates, very lucky to circle in his superstar, neo-classical orbit from time to time.
Chelsea
It's so important to have someone working with you in a recording studio that you really trust because it can be, you know, an intimidating environment at times. And we can experience that red-light fever with recording, of ‘oh I’m recording’ and recording costs so much money just to be in a beautiful studio space, so the pressure is on, so what a dream team. Definitely speaking of jazz, and classic, you've released music under both ABC, jazz and ABC classic labels, and have also been nominated for our awards in both jazz and classical categories. This is pretty rare. I kind of feel like your music has its own voice and genre, but our you know, our western minds love to put things into genre categories. Can you talk to us about these two genres of music, there's kind of two spaces, how they're perceived by the public and how traversing both of these spaces kind of affects your career?
Nat
Yeah, I guess the public, it's really interesting, I think there are some people that you know, identify as a jazz fan or a classical fan, you know, they might be the subscribers to an orchestra, or they're going to a regular night for the Jazz Co-op, or, you know, festivals and stuff. But I think there are also a lot of listeners, particularly in this digital streaming area that just don't even care about genre at all. Or genre might mean a different thing, for example, a peaceful piano playlist. So the word for them is ‘peaceful’, or meditative or ‘music for yoga’. And whether that comes from a classical record, or a jazz record probably doesn't matter to them. But I think using genre terms is partly practical, like, sourcing a piano requires approaching a jazz or classical venue, or a label. And then also tapping into that community and audiences is important to, you know, make sure there's someone who's ready to receive your music. I think it's also a way of acknowledging the musical culture that you're contributing to, trying to respect and understand where it's come from, and what you're able to share in an appropriate way. Like, I know that jazz and classical can often sit in these little silos with these communities, and venues and expectations that are very different. For me, my most comfortable is being able to present work in those, within those silos, I guess, in a respectful and authentic way. But most importantly, I'm able to just be myself and sit between the genres aesthetically, particularly when I'm sitting at the piano, I'm not really thinking about whether I'm playing jazz or classical, I'm just playing music that hopefully sounds like me. And I found myself describing my music as ‘Neo-romantic;, because it has less connotations than saying, You're neo classical, or jazz, or core classical, are all those sort of genre terms that particularly exist in the recording world, because I think neo-romantic captures both the compositional style that I do, but it also describes the lyrical, melodic improvisation that I often play on top of that. And I also like to be a bit different to everybody else.
Chelsea
I love that as a term, neo-romantic I think that really sums it up really nicely. Culturally, the kind of perceptions of classical and jazz though I guess, when you think classical music, you think of big orchestra during this canon of works, perfectly as per the sheet music, you're doing Beethoven as per Beethoven, whereas jazz you think of smokey den, people drinking, people not playing anything remotely like the original composition, it's all about improvisation
Nat
Clapping all the time instead of at the end of 30 minutes. And yeah (laughs)
Chelsea
yeah, it's really, those are kind of those massive differences. And I guess a lot of people don't think of improvisation within the classical space, but that's not entirely correct.
Nat
It’s funny, because I think back in the day, be it 100 years ago or more improvisation was really common in the classical genre. I mean, even just the example of the cadenza where, you know, you would have a work that was notated, but then there'd be a section of the end where the violinists could really stretch out and improvise and elaborate, and then finish on that cadence point. And then somewhere along the way, those cadenzas started to be notated and fixed. And then, you know, there's been musicians like classical musicians that I've worked with where I would ask for the commission, I'm writing for them, can I can I put some improvisation in and some of them are up for it, but some of them will say, ‘Oh, no, that was beaten out of us at the Conservatorium’. But I'm not, I don't want to say that all classical musicians fall into that category, because there are some that are really embracing it, and are quite good at improvising. But that's just an example. I guess, of the kind of cultural barriers that are there in between one genre and the other. Ideally, there's no genre labels at all, and people are just making great music that they want to make. And my job actually in the classical world is, if I am creating a notated score, for example, I'm working on scores at the moment for my whole Hope album, so that it's like a suite of pieces that could be played by another chamber ensemble or another pianist, and finishing my Masters at the Con in Melbourne while doing that. And the biggest hurdle for me is that in that world, there is an expectation that notation really fully represents what you want the music to sound like. So when I write a piece of the piano, I'm often writing just a jazz lead sheet to begin with, so chords and melody, even if it ends up being quite fixed in its notational style, there's no pedal markings on the music or dynamics or phrasing or, you know, descriptive texts that says, what, what world I want it to sound like. But if I was writing a work for a different pianist to play, there's a bit of an expectation that all of that information is on the page, that the score is the best like, in a way, for example, recordings are almost secondary to publishing and engraving a score that represents the music faithfully. And I love to think that anybody that might play Hope in the future, as a piece might have heard the record, and they know what I'm trying to express as a performer, myself. But you can't necessarily rely on that idea. Because, you know, I guess it's different now on the Spotify, world where you can kind of Google, any piece that you've ever played, and you'll hear 700 versions, but I know growing up for me, as a classical pianist, studying that at school, you know, AMEB exams, and you had the pieces, I don't think I ever heard a recording of the, you know, Mozart sonata movement that I was playing, which is probably a bit of a problem that didn't seek those recordings out. But it's an example of how you can, as a classical player fall into the idea that the score is, is all the information you need. And so if that's the way someone else wants to approach it, I've got to make sure what's on the page is reflective of my pianistic style.
Chelsea
Well, I guess back in those days of Mozart, and you know, those revered composers, there was no recording technology. So I think people forget that these were real people. And it was a real scene. And things were changing all the time. And Beethoven probably made amendments between one gig to the next. Actually, that bit didn't work let's change that. And you know, if it was now someone would sign him and he'd record an album, yeah, but there wasn't that technology then. So he had to write down on a piece of paper, but I don't know that necessarily those composers wanted forevermore, that everyone else performing those songs, locked them in exactly as put, but maybe they did. Who knows? You don't know. But they were improvisers or composing starts with improvising, right?
Nat
Yeah, I guess that's true. Yeah, it's funny, someone said to me once, I can't remember who it was, but there's this funny thing where jazz musicians, their objective when they improvising is to try and sound as kind of notated as possible in the sense that, you know, a great solo is one that tells a story in a narrative that in the end could sound like a perfectly crafted composition. And then a classical musician is often trying to play a piece with so much expression and accuracy and fluidity that it sounds improvised. I don't know who it was, if you're listening, thank you, that analogy stayed with me.
Chelsea
It's also culturally, I think, in the behind the scenes work that I do, the difference with a jazz musician, and the classical musicians is the jazz musicians always have drinks and a rider back stage. And the classical musicians are like, what do you mean there is wine?
Nat
Yeah, they'll have a drink. They'll have the same amount of wine, but they'll wait until after the premiere.
Chelsea
Yeah, but if you don't have the urn, yeah, and the tea in the bickies there is a sort of hell to pay.
Nat
Yeah. But often, they’re just so professional, you know, they work if you work with classical players that, like I played Hope on the weekend, for example, with a string quartet in Canberra. And, and the venue is sort of all genres and said, you know, do you have a rider? Like, do you want any drinks backstage and I was like, I don't even know - I said, maybe a bottle of wine, and then six glasses, and we'll see what happens. And then not a single one of them had any alcohol, they were so professional, that they just wanted to play the music as accurately as possible and do a really good job. So thanks for that, guys
Chelsea
Which I love. you know, it's beautiful. I'd love to chat to you about Forever and No Time At All. It's a really beautiful album of lullabies that you created after becoming a mother. Can you talk us through the process of putting this album together? I read that you aim to compose pieces that heartbeat tempos, and you worked with music therapists. That's a really interesting way of going about putting a record together. Can you tell us about that experience?
Nat
Yeah, I guess aesthetically, I've always written meditative soothing music in some way. So before, before I became a mum, I had my jazz trio Nat Bartsch Trio. And that was very ECM, jazz influenced, and lots of ballads and quietness and meditation in the music. And prior to becoming a parent, my husband was playing drums with the Teeny Tiny Stevie, who of course started as the Little Stevie's, two sisters. And then when Sybilla became a parent, they decided to make a kid's record, where they just stuck to their, you know, beautiful indie, folk songwriting style, but then all of a sudden, the lyrics are about going to the toilet on the toilet or taking turns or, you know, being kind and things like that. And, obviously, they've gone super well in their careers. And I'm so glad for them, because it was they what they do has so much authenticity, both in terms of capturing the parenting experience, and also just the music being so great. And I guess I quietly observed that that model could really work for me, because I'm writing this kind of lullaby like music anyway. And I wanted to create a project that I'd be able to chip away at in that new mum phase, because I'm just not the type of person that could just sit at home, being a new mum for a year.
Chelsea
(laughs) I can relate.
Nat
(laughs) Yeah, I think a lot of mums probably can. But I wanted to make something that was easy to kind of pull off with sleep deprivation and lots of other things on your mind. And so I thought, if I write an album of lullabies, it's probably just doing my usual thing, but simplifying the compositions a little more. And I interviewed some music therapists about how to make music that would help babies fall asleep. And they often work with specific children and their families to get particular objectives in hospital settings, and things like that. And a couple of them pointed me towards some research about things like playing tempo similar to a mother's heartbeat, or using consistent harmony or consistent beats and repetition, things that babies can kind of latch on to, and it feels a little bit like being in the womb. And so all of those little parameters I sort of furiously wrote down and tried to follow as much as possible. But the other thing they said, which my gut feeling was telling me anyway, observing the Stevie's was just that it's really important to create music that the parents find calming, because if the parents are calm, the baby's more likely to be calm. And music therapists, one of the first things they often do when they're working with a new client, is they're asking what musical culture their kid belongs to, like, do the parents listen to Metallica all day, or classical music, because if that's their family culture that the kid is belonging to, it's really important to try and weave that into the way that they deliver music therapy for the children, if possible, because it will create a harmonious family environment. So I followed the parameters that were suggested to me as much as possible. But in the end, my goal was to try and make a record that an adult would want to listen to even if they didn't have children around. And I'm so grateful that it's worked because there's these lullabies that are inspired by my son's different stages of development in that first nine months of his life, and that they do soothe many children to sleep, which is like , woo-hoo, that works! Not for everyone, but for a lot of them, which is great, but it's equally satisfying because this album is played by, you know, non parents, and that seems to help them as well. So it's sort of really utilised by people completely across the lifespan. And, and sometimes I've done shows of this music where they're an ABC Classic listener and stuff that have come along, to hear the music just as much as you know, a baby, who's six weeks old. It's completely intergenerational. And I'm very grateful to have stumbled across a project that's had the impact I hoped it would.
Chelsea
And what an incredible gift for your son as well.
Nat
Yeah, I don't know if he totally appreciates the gift yet. He's five. He listens to the lullabies almost every night. I don't think he's realised that it's not normal. Like I think he just thinks all parents would write a lullaby.
Chelsea
All mums are playing piano. All mum's make records.
Nat
(laughs) Yeah, but I think he does. I don't know. When I play the music in front of him, I think he does find it really special. Yeah, I think he sees it as an act of love that most parents would have for the children. And maybe one day, he will realise that there was a bit more of a niche that I could share with him.
Chelsea
You then released Forevermore, which is a jazz sextet reinterpretation of the same compositions, which was nominated for an ARIA for best jazz album, which is incredible. How did you approach reworking the music in this context, and what compelled you to do that?
Nat
Part of it was practical, like I was talking before about venues, and, you know, as a pianist, you can't perform anywhere, you've, you've really got to find the venues in your city that have a nice piano. And I'd had all this experience of working in the jazz scene. And, you know, the original lullaby album still has heaps of improvisation in it, and I'm doing right hand, improvising over the ostinatos in almost every piece. And I realised that if I just furthered that concept a little bit more in the jazz world, it would allow me to keep playing at the venues that I love and have connections to in the jazz scene. But I also realised that maybe it would be music that would be played really well by jazz musicians. And I was so right. I brought these pieces in to the jazz quartet that I'm still working with today. And then we did strings on top as well. And I don't think I ever have had to give them any kind of artistic direction, like the, it's like the pieces to kind of play themselves, because if you choose the right personnel to interpret them, they just know exactly what to do, because they have these really simple structures. Like I think the harmony is interesting and there's lots of lyrical melodies to play. But in jazz terms, it's probably a little bit more simple and slow moving than other pieces I've written beforehand. And they just know what to do, the ostinatos I play kind of end up being the foundation of the pieces. And then they just bring their own beautiful meditative, lyrical vibe on top. This is Madison Carter, Robbie Melville and Tamara Murphy. So I was like, I think, I think this might be a cool idea. And then we went, the first thing we did, actually is we played for a music festival for children at the Recital Centre. And it was like a gig at 11am. So funny, sort of like loading at 8am. What a concept! And by the end of the set, we're just kind of floated off stage. And we all looked at each other like, wow, this is a really cool thing. And so I decided to approach ABC about re-recording the record in a jazz style. And then we were able to do it about five days before lockdown hit Melbourne, we managed to track it in a day. And they smashed it because again, they just, it's just, you get, you know, jazz artists of the highest caliber and you give simple pieces to them, and then they just absolutely kill it sounds amazing. I realised that it's kind of where I'm most happy, particularly in a live setting is playing these classical pieces with jazz musicians, because it's a beautiful bridging of the two worlds. And it's a bit more playful and flexible and fluid, which I think that's where my background is, you know, my music degree was in jazz. And even though I've really struggled to kind of fully adopt the jazz cannon in my plane, having that fluidity and flexibility, particularly with other people. It's still one of the greatest privileges you have from jazz degree from training in that style. It's, it's the best.
Chelsea
Kelly Santin the saxophone player said to me, jazz is a mindset, not a genre.
Nat
So true. So true.
Chelsea And I loved that as a quote
Nat
Yeah. And we can see it in the way that jazz musicians employed in almost all other genres of music. And sometimes deliberately avoiding jazz. Or sometimes it's just like an addition to work in the jazz genre as well. Because it's just a skill set that's so transferable that your aural training, and your ability to remember things and be flexible and improvise and respond to what's happening on stage. I mean, jazz artists kind of do that the best out of everyone.
Chelsea
Yeah, the only tricky thing is if you want them to play set parts. (laughs)
Nat
yes, that's true. Get them to read stuff. Again, you've got to choose the right people, I think for the music.
Chelsea
Yeah, choosing the right people. So I had a question around being a band leader, and describing what the role of a band leader is, and what makes a great leader. And it sounds like part of your secret of being a band leader, is that selection of musicians?
Nat
Yeah, definitely. I don't know if I'm a good band leader, you'll have to ask the people that play in my bands, but I hope I am. And I suspect that one of the most important things has just been about trusting the people that you're engaging with musically. And just letting them be themselves. And always trying to bring good vibes. So even if behind the scenes, there's a lot of extra stuff going on, particularly in the sort of producing and presenting of work, you know, organising tours, or whatever. Sometimes I have to try and stop myself bringing all that stress into the musical environment with the players that I'm working with, it's not always easy, because it's often on my mind. But you know, I'll try and like, limit that and just create a really, just try and be a beacon of light in the room, because that's what I'm trying to communicate musically. So, it's like, I have to set that example. Even just in the way that I'm in, in the studio, or backstage or in the rehearsal room. I think I've also learned perhaps, I guess, I've got a little bit more of a clearer idea of what's important to me in terms of who I employ. Being an autistic person, and very sensitive to social communication and conflict resolution is really challenging for me. And so it's, I find myself employing people that just have the right kind of attitude and vibe, I really struggle with engaging sessional players that are slow to respond to messages and emails and or might not say, just nice things afterwards, like I loved playing on the album, like there are some some, like amazing players, that it's it's about nail the music. But for me, it needs to be also a person that just brings a little bit of like, again, that being a contributing to that really positive, like lovely, supportive, kind environment. And that, yeah, so I'm sort of trying to make sure that I preference, people and personalities that helped to contribute to that culture. And almost exclusively that means having a gender balance, and making sure that it's not a boys club, because that never seems to work out for me.
Chelsea
Yeah, it's really important to have the right mix of people, especially, you know, in this industry, it's tough. You know, it's really hard space to work in and, you know, often there's no money in it, or you potentially risking a lot of money. So it's got to be fun. And it's got to be a vibe, you’ve got to enjoy doing it. Otherwise, it's sort of like, what's the point?
Nat
Oh, totally, totally. And I've, I've worked in scenarios, as a session musician, myself, with other people, band leaders. And I have observed when that works, and when that doesn't. And I have zero interest in creating an environment that's challenging and if it ends up being an environment that is, I just find myself moving on to different programmes or projects.
Chelsea
Yeah, thank you next. So in terms of being a side person, gun for hire session player, you’ve worked with artists such as Whitaker, you've done Play School live, Thando, Sweet Jean Matt Corby, Ella Thompson, Circus Oz. I mean, this is a really diverse list of projects. What do you think makes a great session player?
Nat
Hmm. I haven't done it for a while because I've been so lucky to have had a lot of work, doing my own music. But I think back in the day, I realised a little too late that one of the most important things is being really musically dependable, just really knowing the music inside and out. And I think I went through a phase particularly after I left my jazz degree where there was this kind of this belief that you kind of just come and just play like, like you could, like you could use the skills you've learned as an improviser to just bring your vibe and interpret stuff, you know, in a sort of fluid freeway, but I actually think most of the time, like you were describing before, a lot of these artists kind of want you to just really nail parts that they had in mind, or something that's dependable and reliable. So it's kind of like yes, using all your jazz skills, but knowing when it's just really important to know the music inside out, and just be completely dependable. And also just being positive, inclusive, friendly, all the things I was saying before. Especially for the women in the room, I think that's, you know, important, because I think sometimes particularly session players and male session players, there's, you know, there's a lot of networking and relationship building that happens in rehearsals and touring and stuff and because the employment is uncertain, I think there's a lot of anxiety that sits in the room where people are really trying to, like, foster more work with this artist. And that can sometimes I think, create an environment that's actually quite hard for women, if they're particularly if it's not a gender balanced ensemble. So for me, if it's like a session player that really knows the music is respecting it, and then is also I guess, respecting the communication and relationships in the room, they are worth all the money in the world.
Chelsea
As a chamber music composer, you've been commissioned to write pieces for inventing ensemble Plexus Collective, Solstice trio, The Muses trio, and Sally Whitwell. Can you tell us about how you approach creating a commissioned work?
Nat
It depends, I think, what the ensemble are asking. So sometimes they want you to bring your own ideas and concepts to the work, they just, they would like you to write something, but they don't have a brief
Chelsea
They just want you
Nat
Yeah, they just want me, which I'm so grateful for. Other times, there's a little bit of, I guess, criteria, or sort of set of themes or ideas that they want me to do. So an example might be with Plexus, I had to write a work for an International Women's Day concert, and it needed to be inspired by a nurse from World War One, which led me to write a piece called Into The Light, which actually dedicated to all the nurses of World War One who, you know, lived through unimaginable horrors and stuff, but also for a lot of them, it was an opportunity to step outside their usual gender roles for the first time in their life, and also eventually went back to all those same gender roles of being a mother and a wife and all that. So yeah, so sometimes it's like that, where there's a bit of terms set. And other times it's up to me. And so within Iventi for example, I wrote the Merlyn Myer my commission for Melbourne Recital Centre for them and myself to play. And it was my own idea of writing a work inspired by photographs by Julia Margaret Cameron, who was a Victorian-era portrait photographer, one of the first female photographers in the world, so it can kind of be one or the other. And if it's the former, where there's a bit of terms being set by the ensemble, it's often about sitting down with them in a zoom meeting or in person, and, you know, really getting an idea of what they had in mind, their vision for it. And then you are sort of left to your own devices, and come up with a draft and send it for feedback and check that everything's playable and the instruments and that they're happy, and then make some more changes and, and that's where, you know, I was talking about the importance of scoring. I think that, you know, in that world of writing commissions for chamber ensembles, the scoring becomes so important, because these are works that I haven't personally recorded or performed. So there's no reference point at all. And they really want to know what my intention is as a composer.
Chelsea
So do you go to that first rehearsal and hear it played, and then go, oh, actually, I need to tweak this score..
Nat
yeah, worst case scenario is you do that and then going, oh, wow, that that whole section really doesn't work. And you have to go back and fix it. But most of the time, it's small adjustments. So they'll send through like a rehearsal recording or if I'm lucky, I get to be in the room. And it might be things like oh, bar 37 can you just not either left hand part and just play the right hand, or can we change the slurring of this violin there? So, you know, the, it's got more legato or, you know, just little tweaks. That process of getting composer feedback in the rehearsal process before a premiere is, is pretty important. Because yeah, there's again, there's no reference point other than the score. And sometimes there's things you've missed in the score. Like they go, I'm sorry, I've just noticed you've got a tied B flat for ages. And then all of a sudden, the next note you have is a B, do you need that to be a B flat as well? And it's like, imagine going to the premiere, and then all of a sudden, there's a note semitone out. And you didn't know till you were there. It's so, it's a really important part of the process. Make sure you've haven't missed anything.
Chelsea
Yeah, I can't imagine it's such a different world.
Nat
It’s so meticulous, like, incredibly meticulous, which is not something I'm necessarily good all the time. Like, sometimes I just like with jazz artists, I love just pressing record doing a take, it's got imperfections, and it sounds unique. And every time you press record, it will sound different. And I love that about jazz and improvisation. And in the classical world, it's like the opposite. It's being meticulous and very specific. So it's kind of a skill set I've had to learn. But then on the flip side, you have this experience of going to a premiere of your work and sitting in the audience siding. And it's just so thrilling, because you don't even have to do to anything I know that sounds just get dressed.
Chelsea
Just get dressed up have your champagne, I’m the composer (laughs)
Nat
Exactly. Take a bow. (laughs) If you're lucky, you might get some flowers or something. But I think what I mean by that is it's such a privilege to have other musicians that want to play your music on stage without you and just to sit there and soak that up and hear them play music that I can't personally play myself like the Plexus piece, for example, I eventually performed it within venti ensemble for the first time, but the piano parts are really hard. So why not give it to Stefan Casamino who can kill it?
Chelsea
Absolutely make him work.
Nat
Yeah, way better than me.
Nat
Yeah. That's very thrilling. Yeah.
Chelsea
How does it work? In terms of exclusivity? If they've commissioned you? Is it sort of their piece? Could you possibly put together an album with a bunch of these compositions yourself? Or do they have it for a set period of time?
Nat
Oh, that's a good question. I think sometimes, there well, there's certainly the expectation that a commissioning ensemble will premiere the work first, so you can't write a piece and then have someone else play it live first? In terms of recording, I suppose it's really up to the individual agreement, and whether the ensemble has any intention of recording it. I've been thinking about recording some of these chamber music commission's myself, because I make records quite often. And that's something I love to do to express who I am. And yeah, sometimes it's like, hey, just checking. Do you mind if I record into the light? Or did you plan to do it? And so there's a few of those little conversations that have to happen often after the fact because these commissions are often quite informal. And there is no discussion about, you know, publishing and all those other aspects. Usually, it's an exclusivity of live performance at the beginning.
Chelsea
The premiere
Nat
Yeah, then the work is the work. and because I would own the publishing and have the capacity to record it myself. I would ultimately be hoping I can record it and play it in some way myself.
Chelsea
Yeah. Well, I would love to hear some of these pieces you know, recorded. I'm you're currently studying a Masters of Composition at the Melbourne Conservatorium of Music. What? Like all the things that you've written and achieved already, what made you decide to go back to university? What are you hoping to learn from during the Master?
Nat
Yeah, well, the good thing about the Masters is that you only have to submit a folio of your works. So you don't have to write a thesis for the Masters of composition at Melbourne Conservatorium, you actually just submit a folio of your written works and the scores are intended to be as perfectly published as if you wrote a thesis. And so really, it's just a folio of pieces that I'm writing out in my real world job of being a solo artist and composer. For example, Hope will be in my folio, the whole album, and then some commissions I've written for other people and stuff, but the main reason why I decided to go and do it is because I wanted to get a little bit more skilled at writing for classical musicians and orchestrating things and scoring things better because I, I guess a lot of jazz musicians do delve into the classical world, but I guess I wanted to do it in a more formal capacity and also amazing things like, I've got the opportunity to write a piece for the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra to play. Not it's not part of their public sort of concert series, hopefully one day, but it's um, you know, there's like a workshop where they will play through your work. And so I'm, I'm, you know, and then I'm also being commissioned to arrange Hope, the song for the Stonnington Symphony Orchestra. So I've got two different works being played by orchestra in the next few months. And, you know, that's definitely a skill set that I needed
Chelsea
They don’t teach you that at jazz school!
Nat
No, no, no, they don't. And so I really owe a great debt to Stuart Greenbaum has been my main supervisor through the last couple of years, and helping me to learn about this other worlds. And it's so funny because I feel I've entered the classical world at a side door as a performer, composer. And, you know, there's the basic conventions of composition that you would learn at undergraduate level that I've never learned. And every once in a while, it really comes back to bite me. And there's something really obvious that I've missed and being in that course, is obviously helping smooth over those bumps a little bit more. Yeah, I still feel like if I walked down the street, and I saw someone carrying a contrabassoon, I still don't know if I can identify it on site. You know, there's definitely things, like a lot of things I've got to learn. I feel confident in my compositional style, but in terms of orchestrating for, you know, ensembles and scoring things. I've got a lot more to learn still.
Chelsea
That's exciting. So is there a PhD in the future? Dr. Nat Bartsch.
Nat
I would love to be adopted in that batch. And I definitely would like to do a PhD. But get the Masters done first,
Chelsea
when the time is right.
Nat
Yeah. Yeah. I would love I would love that. Yeah.
Chelsea
Well, any of the university professors that might be listening. Yeah. Get in quick with those scholarship bids.
Nat
Yeah, I definitely want to get paid to do it. Yeah. Otherwise, it's like, that's a lot of work for no money. I mean, obviously, the pursuit of knowledge and writing new works is very special. But
Chelsea
We also have to eat and pay rent. So exactly. There's no shame in that. Yeah. Back to the stage and talking about gigs. I read that you took your trio to perform in Japan, and you played in a temple. Can you tell us about that?
Nat
Yeah, that was awesome. I think it was Izuka, which is a small town fairly, in the mountains. I can't remember where it was near. This was a long time ago, I've been very lucky to have a promoter in Japan, who works with a lot of ECM artists and his name is Tom Osawa. Hi, Tom, if you're listening. He organised a tour for us where we played a couple of jazz clubs. And then we went and played in this temple. And I think that the comparison to make is that, you know, there are a lot of churches in Australia that would be used for live music shows. And so it was a little bit like that, except because it was Japan and they value music, and I guess and also products really high, not sure if that's the right word. But obviously, there's a manufacturing culture. There are real artisans, you know, that make really incredible things. So he went into this temple in the mountains in, in a small town. And there was a Steinway concert grand just. In the temple. And they did the small concerts for the local community. And it was one of the highlights of my performance career. Thanks for bringing it up. I forgot. I forgot about it. It's so special.
Chelsea
How beautiful. Yeah, what was the crowd response? Like?
Nat
I guess the Japanese really value European jazz. They haven't there's a real market for ECM over there. And so I guess they have really appreciated my music. And I think, actually, neoclassical piano is also quite on the rise in Japan. And I haven't been back for a long time. But I did find out the second biggest market for Hope, with digital streaming other than Australia is Japan. So there were small audiences, but super, super into it. And I guess I found that a lot with live shows the last few years, like I don't, I guess I have the quality of the fan sometimes over the quantity. Do I said that, right?
Chelsea
Yeah. But it's also you know, as you were saying, you want a room that has a great piano, and often they're in smaller spaces like jazz clubs and places like that. If you think of our larger venues in town, for example, like here in Melbourne, The Forum or The Corner, venues that have these 1000 people capacities they don’t have pianos.
Nat
Yeah, it's either small chamber music like space, like the Salon at the recital centre or a jazz club. Oh, or it's like Hamer hall or some kind of absolutely ginormous theatre. And generally speaking, I'm not really at that level of being able to play in a giant Hall.
Chelsea
We're not many people sell those rooms. Yeah, exactly how many people can sell 10, 0000 seats.
Nat
10,000 seats. I don't think I'd have a breakdown, playing my quiet introspective music to 10,000 people. But hopefully one day we can do a podcast about me doing that.
Chelsea
Yeah. Let's let's do that we'll reconvene.
Nat
I wonder, I'm trying to think of any pianists would have applied to 10,000 people.
Chelsea
I reckon big festival gigs. You know, like your Newport jazz or whatever.
Nat
Maybe Elton John. Yeah.
Chelsea
Oh, well, yes, of course in that space, Lady Gaga, Alicia Keys. I did see Alicia Keys at Rod Laver Arena a few years ago. She had her I think it was white, like this big piano that, you know, it was it came up through the stage, you know, all that. Yeah. theatrics. And it spun around while she played that,
Nat
I would love that like Hope, but just like on a rotating, rotating stage.
With like glitter cannons. And yeah, yeah, that's really me. I mean, the glitter cannons. White pianos (laughs)
Chelsea
It was fun, I guess, you know, she wanted to use as much of the stage as possible, she had two keyboards set up, stage left and stage right quite up close to the front of the stage down stage. And then her piano in the centre. And on some songs, she had a while, like her radio mic, and then she'd go to the keyboard up the front and like smash out some stuff on that. And then she'd walked to the other keyboard, and smash out some stuff on that. And then you be like, I'm gonna play my piano now. And then over to the piano.
Nat
Amazing.
Chelsea
So she wasn't, I guess, sort of just stuck on the piano the whole time.
Nat
I saw Tori Amos once years and years ago, and she had a piano on one side. And then like, I think a Hammond or something on the other. And then she would kind of straddle the piano stool and have one hand on each. And I just thought that was like, so cool. But of course, now, I know a lot more about you know, keyboard, sessional players and having multiple keyboards, and playing them at different times is pretty standard. That was very cool.
Chelsea
Yeah, super cool. Changing track a little. The last couple of years, there's been some much overdue conversations in the music industry around mental health for artists, which I know is something you've spoken quite a lot about. Can you tell us about some of the research that you've done around mental health and creativity?
Nat
My honours degree was about this and looking at the way mood affects creativity. And there's always been a lot of research, as was touched on in your other podcast episode about ‘can music make you sick’ about depression and mania and general kind of heartache, having an impact on creative activity? And a lot of research about things like how would hyper-mania or depression, increase your creative productivity? For example, just all of a sudden feeling inspired to write an album or a symphony. And I think that's a trope that's been around for a long time. And I really wanted to look at that. And look at my own mental health, and whether there was a relationship there. And what was really interesting is, I looked at my performances and touring and composition and stuff. And yes, my mood definitely affected my creative productivity. But also, I found that working in the industry also had an impact on mood, for example, playing a show, I played with Matt Corby at Groovin’ The Moo festivals, all around, and there was 10 – 20 thousand people singing along to ‘Brother’, I'm playing the piano part. And obviously, that's a really thrilling experience. And it would send a lot of people into a kind of a hyperactive, hyper-manic state. And then conversely, there's those times where the gig is over and you're coming home and you just got to put the bins out and you've got nothing. You've got nothing in the diary, but nothing on Monday, and that can really drag your mood down. So I kind of curiously found that it was like a real, there's a two way relationship between mood and creativity. Mood can inspire you to create work, either because you're feeling depressed or you're feeling really creatively inspired and engaged. But it can also affect your capacity to work in the industry because the industry can affect how you're feeling. I think there's this myth that artists must suffer to create good art, and it's just perpetuated in the industry for so long. There's a lot of reluctance, for example, to take medication because people are worried it's going to affect their creativity, or sometimes even just see a psychologist, I think that's probably changing now, I really just disagree with that. I think the album's where I've had the most success have been the ones where I am really well treated for neurodiversity, take medication, and feel really well, within myself, I'm able to complete creative tasks and rehearse and perform and work with other people go on tour. And all of those things are dependent on having good mental health. So the suffering is kind of irrelevant. Like, if you're feeling depressed, and you and you start writing a beautiful introspective piano piece, I mean, that's great. But as an example, there's a single that was released last year of mine, called another time, another place. And I started writing that when I was being treated for depression, it's got this beautiful melody at the start, and then I never finished it, because my mental health was too crappy. It was just a half-finished scribble on a piece of paper in a draw. And then it was years later, when I was feeling well that I found that half-finished composition, and finished it and then recorded it and now perform it. And so the depression might have spurred some kind of creative response. But that's very different to being a creative, professional, and what's expected and required of you in the industry. You need to be at your fittest mentally and physically, to be able to do it sustainably.
Chelsea
Yeah. And to cope in an extremely challenging environment and an industry where, you know, we were talking, you know, before we hit the record button, just around being in an industry that isn't unionized, where there isn't, you know, a guaranteed wage or a minimum wage for artists, there is no sick pay, there's no superannuation, you're essentially running your own business. So you have to be it's got to be on your game.
Nat
Yeah, I think there's a culture that the show must go on at all costs. And sometimes that is completely unrealistic. And it's particularly hard if you write original music, like, if you are Chelsea Wilson playing Chelsea Wilson's songs, and you injure yourself or have a mental health episode, and all these ticket holders have booked to come and see you play. There is so much pressure for you to just be you and do your music on stage the way everybody expects. You can't just call someone else up and be like, hey, can you just come and play my songs on stage because I'm not feeling well. And I've been stuck in that scenario. So many times, I had a really major depressive breakdown in 2009, and was unwell for more than a year before I found medications and treatment that worked for me. And it was in a phase where I guess I had a bit of career momentum as a jazz bandleader and composer, and also playing a lot of session gigs. And the phone would ring. And it would be like, hey, can you do this gig in, you know, on May 17. And that would be in four months time. And I'd be like, I think I'll be feeling better by then so I'll say yes. And then I'd get to May 17. And I'd still be feeling really terrible. And then I'd have to decide, do I let this person down and cancel? Or do I just rally and kind of put on the mask and get out there and do it. And sometimes I just really wasn't well enough to do that it was sort of there was a cost to doing that. Because I would feel so vulnerable on stage and communicating with other people. And I think if I could wave a magic wand with the industry, I would kind of pump a whole bunch of funding into it that enables artists to set up kind of basic workplace rights, like being able to have a sick day and be paid, or being able to have an understudy for your work. I found one of the easiest ways to reenter the music industry after being unwell was I did a lot of double bill concerts. And that's how I got to know Luke Howard really well. And it was really important because I needed to know that there was a plan B, if I wasn't feeling well. And if I decided that this particular day was one of those like 10 out of 10 depression days, that I could call Luke and be like, hey, Luke, do you think he could just do two sets tonight and because everybody loves Luke so much, I'm sure they wouldn't be too disappointed if Luke did more music. And that was a really important step. But I think for a lot of artists, there is no fallback.
Imagine if we had funding where we could train up people to learn the repertoire. Like say, for example, you've got a guitarist who's working in your band, who knows all your tunes, but is, you know, managing to recover from a mental health condition, they can register with some kind of organisation which basically matches them with another guitarist, who can be paid to learn all the material and be on standby and get paid a fee to be an understudy for that night. And then it means if the guitarists, guitarist one is feeling well, and they can go on stage and do what they need to do. If they're not feeling great. There's a fallback so that the bandleader and performer and promoter don't have to experience that unbelievable amount of stress of trying to solve the problem. But also, that will mean that there's less pressure on guitarist one to rally and do it if they're not well, and the same applies to physical illness, disability, chronic injuries, all that stuff, there's, I think there's a tier of people that work in the industry that feel like they have to perform at all costs. And that's the culture we've created for them, which is really sad. And there's also I think, a tier of musicians that aren't performing, because they found it hard to navigate managing their wellbeing. And that's really sad. And I think there are solutions there that we're just not able to adopt, because it's such an unregulated, underfunded industry. That’s my dream
Chelsea
The understudy concept is really interesting, but it's not new. I mean, doing music theatre and orchestras do that, there's a range of other models where or industries where that is the model.
Nat
Yeah, imagine you could have, you could have a freelance musician that's paid to be a swing, and they're funded by the Australian Council for the Arts. And they learn material and repertoire for like, five different guitarists. And just available that, you know, they have nights on call where they are able to move, you know, step into the role of any of those guitarists in any of those gigs, if required, kinda like, a lot of other industries. Yeah, it would be great.
Chelsea
What do you think are some things that artists and behind the scenes workers can do to try and improve conditions to support mental health of artists, you know, I think artists need to look after artists.
Nat
Yeah, it's so true, you know, so true. Looking at doing mental health first aid would be really great for a lot of people that work in the industry, and a lot of people do do it. But it just means that you have the skill set to understand if people aren't coping, and how you can respond to that at a gig or at a rehearsal, or particularly on tour. I also, I've recently learned about the concept of the access rider, which is a very cool idea. So access meaning disability accommodations, or disability rights, really. So you know, you might have a rider for your catering, or, you know, a rider for your technical requirements. But an access rider is saying, Hey, like in my instance, hey, I'm autistic, these are the things that would be required at this venue for me to be able to perform at my best. And it could be things like a quiet space away from other band members where I can go if I'm feeling sensory overwhelm, or I'm tired of social communication. Or it might be photographs of the backstage area so I can visualise what it'll be like or, you know, just very small accommodations. But I think the concept of an access rider doesn't have to apply to people who only have lifelong disability, it could be, I love the idea of sharing a kind of list of expectations that can support people who are feeling unwell. And that might be recovering from COVID, or it might be, you know, feeling depression or performance anxiety, or, you know, there are so many different ways, like RSI is a great example. There are so many ways that people can be injured or unsupported in the industry. And it means it's just like a framework, its very simple. It's a piece of paper, or a PDF that's, you know, forwarded to a bandleader or a promoter or venue or manager that helps demonstrate really practical ways that you can help someone.
Chelsea
Yeah, and I think just asking the question as well so the onus isn't on the person to have to, that's something I've learned. Yeah, I never used to do that. And so an artist said to me, hey, you know, I actually have access needs and this wasn't made clear to me, I actually need to know, you know, and, and she said to me, I, look well, and looks like I'm capable of doing things more physically, but I get really, really tired. And I actually need to know like, how many 100 metres walk it's going to be from the car park to the rehearsal room. I need to know those kind of, it's, you know, it's not just about wheelchair access. It's about what those conditions are going to be like.
Nat
Yeah, there's so much. There's, I mean, there's so many hidden disabilities. Yeah, people don't see. And, you know, I think in the new is an industry there's a huge amount of people that are neurodivergent, whether they know it or not. And there are a lot of people who are awaiting assessment for things like autism and ADHD. And so if that's true that there are a lot of, you know, extremely accomplished musicians that have neuro-diverse access needs, these are conversations that we should be able to have all the time. And yeah, I think unfortunately, the onus is often on the person with disability to to self-advocate, and say, these are the things I need. And sometimes that's not possible, like social communication can be hard for a lot of a lot of people in general, but also especially for, you know, neurodivergent people. And so if it's hard enough to be in a rehearsal space, kind of just making day to day chitchat, how do you go up to someone and say, I really need a quiet space right now I'm having a bit of a meltdown, you just can't do that. So that's what I love about the Rider thing is it's sort of proactive and pre-emptive. And it's kind of like one step, there's a bit of separation between the musician who needs support, and the person who needs to implement it.
Chelsea
Yeah, absolutely. It's great. And I've definitely seen more and more of that coming through with riders and with other things as well, like environmental consciousness with bands saying, I don't want any single use plastic backstage, I don’t want plastic water bottles, and we want all the loos to be gender neutral, and things like that, there's definitely more of that happening.
Nat
And kudos also, by the way to Creative Victoria, who have been creating the option to have access funding on top of a grant that you might get from a project saying, whereas in other grants I've applied for, yes, you can use some of the grant for access. But that's actually money that might otherwise for a neurotypical musician, just be spent on like an extra day of mixing. Whereas Creative Victoria has ringfenced, grants specifically for disabled musicians and artists, but also often like in the COVID grants, you know, it was I think it was $5,000 to do a project, but then there's an extra two and a half $1,000 on top if you had a disability and had access requirements. And so it's sort of saying, we're aware that you need extra support to complete your project but we don't think you should be disadvantaged in creating the project to get that support. So bravo, Creative Victoria.
Chelsea
Yeah, it's great to see that acknowledgement happening. So you recently also contributed a chapter to “We've Got This - Stories by Disabled Parents”, which you co-wrote with your husband. Yeah. What was that process like? And have you two collaborated on anything before?
Nat
Well, we've collaborated a bit musically. So my husband, Jeremy is a drummer and singer, and also a songwriter. He's currently making an album that satirizes the music industry, it's extremely funny. Can't wait to share it with the world. Basically, we both realised that we're autistic in the last three years, as we became parents. And so we've got this as a book that was edited by Eliza Hull, who's an amazing musician, as well as a writer. And we were asked to contribute a chapter and I think ours is particularly unique, because we're the only parents that wrote about parenting in this book that discovered what our disabilities were through the process of parenting. So Jeremy and I both working at high levels in the music industry and had various different other diagnoses. But actually, what we had missed was that there were these autistic symptoms that were sort of bubbling under the surface, but when you work in the music industry, a lot of that stuff is kind of missed, because it's, you know, an industry where that stuff is kind of normalised, I guess that there are a lot of neurodivergent people working in it. And also the work is varied and you can sleep in if you're tired and all that stuff, but then all of a sudden, you're a parent, you can't do that and we found ourselves kind of struggling with some really basic parenting tasks. Like for me, it was things like doing a childcare pickup, so stopping composing at 4.30pm getting in the car driving, collecting the child bringing him home, hearing the cartoons, cooking dinner. So all of these things require brain space to transition from one activity to the other. And I was just beside myself, I could have just, like climbed the walls with dysregulation and stress and I used to get really angry and impatient and pouring the wine at five o'clock and just trying to find any way to bring myself back down to that, you know, a level where I could be present and calm with my family. And Jeremy has had other issues that he's had to address as well. And so writing that chapter was really cathartic for us. Because it was a way of telling our story, and about what it means to be neurodivergent. And we're both very proudly autistic, and have no issue telling the world about our neurodiversity. Particularly, I think it's a great time to find out that you're neurodivergent when you're in your 30s, and perhaps you're a little bit less worried about like social norms, or you know, you're just kind of doing your thing. I often joke, it's really great finding out you're autistic, when you've had two ARIA nominations, like, whatever you're doing in your life is probably going fine. And it's just like, it's like a little bit of an extra understanding of yourself on top. I mean, kudos to the autistic community for being so good at encouraging autistic people to celebrate their unique strengths and talents and advocate for their needs and in a really kind of neuro affirming way. It's awesome. And the book is great. And there are chapters written by all sorts of different parents that live with all sorts of different situations and disabilities and different children of different ages and different professions and stuff. And it's so fascinating. I reckon that should be a must read.
Chelsea
Yeah, definitely worth a read. Nat Bartsch, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me on the control podcast.
Nat
It's been my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
