Eliza Hull
Produced by Chelsea Wilson. Transcript by Chelsea Wilson
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
disability, people, feel, music, artists, venue, speak, music industry, book, guess, space, attitudes, writing, incredible, child, representation, organisation, record, studio, parents
TRANSCRIPT
Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women working in the music and creative industries. In this episode I’m speaking to Musician, speaker, writer and disability advocate Eliza Hull.
Eliza’s music has been described as ‘stirring, captivating and heartfelt.’ She is currently working on her fifth studio record, due for release in 2023.
Her songs are featured in Australian TV shows such as ‘And Then Something Changed,’ and ‘The Heights’ and American TV shows ‘Awkward, ‘Teen Wolf’ and ‘Saving Hope.’
As a speaker she has presented panels on accessibility at SXSW in Austin, Texas and music conference Changes. She performed at ABILITY Fest and produced the Iso aid ‘Accessible All Areas’ Festival featuring disabled musicians from all around the world.
As an audio producer Eliza developed the ‘We’ve Got This’ series about parenting with disability for Radio National and ABC LIFE which was developed into a book “We’ve Got This - Stories by Disabled Parents”. She recently released her first children’s book “come over to my house” Co-written by bestselling author Sally Rippin
She was awarded the Music Victoria ‘Amplify’ award, the APRA mentorship for women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council and Arts Access Australia and the Diversity in Music Award from the Women in Music Awards.
In this conversation I ask Eliza about representation and her advocacy work, her new album project, showcasing at South by Southwest, moving into the literature space and much more.
This is Eliza Hull in Control.
Chelsea
Eliza Hull, thank you so much for joining me on the Control podcast.
Eliza
Thank you so much for having me.
Chelsea
It's great to see you. I firstly, I wanted to say congratulations on your Amplify Award win at the Music Victoria awards, and also the Women in Music Diversity Award, it was so great to see you acknowledged and receive those awards. How do you feel about those award categories and receiving that acknowledgement?
Eliza
It's such a great question. Well, firstly, I feel really honoured and excited by it. I was really, really shocked, especially with the Music Victoria award. I think, you know, being alongside so many incredible artists and advocates, it was like, wow, I cannot believe this. So I was shocked. But when I was onstage, I felt like a wave of emotion. Because I think for a long time, disability was not something that I was willing to talk about because of the internalised ableism that I faced. And that was just because of lack of representation, really, of people with disability in the music industry. And so to be up on that stage and to be recognised for my music, but also for my advocacy work was, yeah, truly an honour. I mean, at times, it's, you know, it's a really tricky space to be in, I have to admit, because for so long disability was something that I again, you know, didn't talk about and hid. And yet now, that's really, funnily enough, at the moment that I kind of stepped inside the space of disability advocacy, it sometimes it's now hard to get my music out there, because disability is, I guess, the advocacy and the consultancy is really taking up a lot of my time and space, which, yeah, it's a hard thing to now navigate that kind of, those different roles. But you know, that all takes time.
Chelsea
Speaking of your music, I'm really excited to chat to you about your upcoming record, your fifth studio record, hopefully coming out early next year produced by Georgia Sally Banks, who's also known as Odette and Pip Norman, can you talk us through this recording? What's it been like? What's the process? What's it about? What's the new record about?
Eliza
I'm calling this a record reunion. And the reason I'm calling it that is because it feels like a bit of a reunion with myself, with oneself. And I think that, you know, as I just spoke briefly then about is that kind of, you know, for a long time, I really hid a lot about myself. And that was really a heavy space to live in. And so now that I'm speaking more openly and being more authentic and speaking my truth, it has felt like almost like a you know, a reunion with oneself with the older version of myself, almost that the child version of myself when I truly accepted myself and didn't fear, difference, and didn't fear being being different and feeling really different. The process has been really fun. I have to say, like, just
Chelsea
great. sometimes it isn't recording can be really hard.
Eliza
Yeah exactly. Every time I've gone into the studio with Pip and also with Georgia, I felt really listened to I've felt like we're all on even ground, I felt like it's been just a great collaboration, fun, enjoyable, there's been a lot of joy and the songs feel, yeah, just really exciting. And I feel like I'm really speaking about things that I haven't spoken about before and the music really also has kind of gone up that notch, I guess that just feel very different and goes in and ebbs and flows between, you know, more of that kind of melancholy sound, but also a lot there's a lot of joy in the songs and power as well, which is really exciting.
Chelsea
And what about the instrumentation because some of your work has this really lush, ethereal kind of sound, but then, you know, when you performed on Q&A for ABC TV, it was, you know, just you and piano so you can kind of do both of those sorts of sounds. What's the kind of audio sonic flavour of this work?
Eliza
Yeah, I feel like it is similar to the older stuff in that it is, you know, kind of that dreamy soundscape he sounds, but piano is definitely the thing that, you know, brings it all together. So I play piano on every track, actually.
Chelsea
Wow.
Eliza
Yeah. And probably the thing that I would say is the most different about this record is the, the production is slightly more popand because of that there are more harmonies there's more vocal layers, but I was I was wanting to push it into that space a little bit more. So I'm excited about that.
Chelsea
And then some of that Georgia’s influence what's it been like working with her?
Eliza
Yeah, like, she has such an incredible musical mind. And she's yeah, she's brought things to the table that, you know, suddenly she's playing the strings on the piano, and then top of the piano and using that as like a almost like a stringed instrument. And, you know, she's really enabled me to really push me as well lyrically, but also vocally as well, just saying, you know, maybe pull back a little bit here, those kinds of moments where I might might have just kind of pushed, pushed vocally, she's actually said the opposite. Like, maybe that's, you know, maybe pull back and see what it feels like to do that, and really speak to the audience this way. So I've really valued her, just have her mind and her musical brain, because that's, it's just been really incredible to hear what she feels from the music and where she thinks that should go.
Chelsea
It's great to hear you say that you feel really listened to in the studio by your production team, because that's not always the case, when we're in those environments, as artists, and that artist and producer relationship can be quite challenging to navigate. It's such an intimate process to make an album and you're in the studio with very vulnerable stories and things to share. And you've got a producer who's also kind of, you know, wanting to shape it in a particular way. Do you feel like it's been different working with a female production team?
Eliza
Yeah, I think so. I think. Yeah. But I do also think that Pip Norman, I think, because of his experience, working with so many artists, and working with lots of female artists, I think that he just is a great listener. And he doesn't, you know, sometimes I've just felt like in the, in the studio, when I've brought an idea, like just that imposter feeling that you have, and that feeling of like, that you a are not listened to, and be that your thoughts are not relevant. And actually, you know, I know, I know more than you because I've been doing it for this long. And whereas I don't get that from Pip Norman, or Georgia at all. In fact, it just felt very, like we're just here together, and what do you think? and it was constantly ‘What do you think?’ Instead of just them taking over.
Chelsea
How do you feel about your musical output? how it's evolved or developed over five records? Almost five records?
Eliza
Yeah, I mean, I never listened back to my old music. But I did the other day, actually, I was, I had a long drive, and I dived into lots of new records that I want to listen to, I went back to some old stuff. And then I don't know whether it was just I was in this reflective mindset. And I just yeah, I started, I looked back, and you know, like, it actually made me feel proud to be honest, like, you know, normally, sometimes you can really cringe with what you're listening too. And look, I heard what could have been different, and I hear what you know, isn't perfect. But I also hear something that I actually wish I could come back to. And I don’t know how to describe it. But like through the kind of innocence of when you first start writing music and you just don't have that kind of outside knowledge of the music industry. And so you just like literally just, you know, your heart just pours out. And I think sometimes I worry that I'm too, I have been in the past too affected by the audience, or the listener instead of what I really want to say and how I really want to say it. And I think that the first record, I wasn't in that space at all, it just sounded really honest. And yeah, look, there's some songs I don't particularly love as much. But there are some songs that have really stood, you know, I guess they're ground for a long time. And I still really appreciate.
Chelsea
The last couple of years have been incredibly difficult for artists, especially in terms of live performance, with shows being cancelled and the uncertainty. How did you navigate through this time? And did you have moments where you questioned if you still wanted to work in music?
Eliza
Yeah, absolutely. It was hard, and there was a lot of gigs that got cancelled for me. I was, you know, almost at that time was about to play at the Sydney Opera House. And I was so excited for that, that got cancelled, and there were a lot of gigs that got cancelled.
Chelsea
Has it been rescheduled?
Eliza
Ye I ended up playing that one. So that was yeah, it was very good. It was all those shows that I postponed. I think one in particular got postponed five times. And even when we did start opening up, there was this kind of belief that everything's back to normal. It's still not because if a musician gets COVID, you have to cancel the gig. Or even if your guitarist who you've rehearsed with lots gets COVID, you still have to cancel because it's too expensive to suddenly in a day rehearse the whole show with another guitarist. So yeah, there was definite times that I felt like, the music industry is just, it's just too hard. But I just don't think I could ever let music go, to be honest. Like, I think the music industry is hard. But for me, the actual music and the actual creation of music and getting into the studio and performing to an audience, that will never feel hard, because it just has to happen. It's like, it's in me, and it will never go away. But I felt like there was times I mean, I think the especially in the Victorian sector, there were times where I just felt like the government weren't listening and weren't doing enough and giving so much money to other areas, even the film industry.
Chelsea
Anyone else, really!
Eliza
Yeah, exactly. I guess that really comes down to that real lack of belief in what the music industry actually does every single day for people. And without it, it's such a massive hole in the arts sector, but also just in society in general, like the music industry is what makes Melbourne and regional areas feel alive. So I hope in a way we can actually use it as a tool to realise when something's taken from you, what it actually what it actually means.
Chelsea
Do you think that's happened, though? Do you think the general public now valuing music more than before? I mean, I'm a little bit skeptical on it (laughs)
Eliza
I am, too. But I do I actually do think that there's a greater appreciation for music. But maybe that's just the circles I'm in, I don't know, I just feel like the audience is, what I'm hearing is I really miss this. I really want to support artists more, this feels so good to be listening to music with friends. And yeah, this is what community is, and whether that really translates into people buying merch and people buying tickets. And I'm not sure, but it does feel like there has been, I guess what, what has taken from people, it's kind of reiterated the importance of what it does.
Chelsea
Yeah, I think you're right. But it definitely was an interesting time. And I don't think as artists, we'd really thought before the pandemic about how we were viewed by government more broadly. But then all of a sudden seeing support, go to other industries, and not music, specifically, it was like, oh, hang on, we're kind of invisible, actually.
Eliza
It's such a shame to really lose all the people we lost. And a lot of people haven't come back actually. Especially within, you know, certain areas like sound engineers, production. Yeah, it's, it was too hard to hold on at that time. And so and we've, we have lost some artists as well to other careers, which again, is real shame.
Chelsea
Yeah. And venues as well, you know, it's just kind of across the whole board, really. But I love what you said before about, even though the industry side of things can be really difficult to navigate, and I think quite exhausting, also, from an artist point of view, because it just seems so, so huge, and so big and so bleak at times, but I love that you still have the joy for music, and the thing that propelled you to want to be a creator in the first place that that energy is still very much with you. I've heard you talk about music before being an escapism when you were younger, and coming to terms with living with a disability. Can you talk to us about what music means to you, especially around that time and how it became an essential part of your life?
Eliza
Yeah, it was kind of by chance that when I was five years old, I started falling over at school. And that's when I started to develop my disability. And that was the time that I learned that I could sing. And it was by chance that my music teacher invited me to perform in the local eisteddfod and where it was that I think when you are feeling really confused as a child and not knowing why everybody's talking about you, and why you have to go to so many hospital visits, why you're constantly falling over at school. Why are you suddenly in pain? I think that that is a really confusing thing to happen to a child. So to then have the juxtaposition of being told you're really good at something and you know the applause I guess like having people say well done, and I think that that just really was such a great thing for my confidence at that time. Then throughout Primary School in high school when things did get hard when I was having lots of surgery operations, when I was being, you know, teased at school, and some people would make fun of me and walk behind me and make noises, and I felt, you know, I guess when you're a teenager, you desperately just want to fit in, and you want to not be different. And so I would just go into the music room and get on the piano and just play and write songs, and I guess, express myself and use it as a tool to kind of figure out what's going on and figure out all the big feelings that I was feeling. Yeah, I think it's such been such a good thing for my life. And then I guess, going forward when I moved to Melbourne, after year 1,2 I think I've realised like when I look back on all the memories of my life, like it's just such a great way to create community, like with other bands, with your own band, and then your audience as well. Just having that connection. And then being able to invite your friends to the show, and it being a thing to do and outing. And it's yeah, it's truly been like the best of my life in terms of it just, you know, each gig, being a time to feel connected and to feel less alone.
Chelsea
What was the song you sang as a five year old at the Eisteddfod. Do you remember?
Eliza
I do but yeah, it's not one to be proud of. It's time to Kangaroo down Sport.
Chelsea
I'd love to chat to you about your work advocating for a more inclusive industry. It's really important work that you're doing. And your role as an access consultant. You're currently advising for organisations such as the Arias, Victoria Opera, The Arena Theatre company, Bakehouse studios, and live music venues such as Theatre Royale Castlemaine. I mean, it's fantastic that finally there is conversation happening around this and a willingness to, you know, start that process. But what is that process like for you? How do you approach creating strategies for these clients?
Eliza
I, first of all, I, you know, see what they're doing at the moment. So it's more like having a look at what they're already doing really well and speak to them about that. For venues, I go into the venue and do kind of like a walk through, and then consult on what needs to be changed in terms of physical environment for audience, but also for artists. And then yeah, look at more kind of website and social media and how they publicise their shows. And, and also, you know, talking about simple, quick wins, really like for a venue, a lot of venue operators, don't know how to ask someone, you know, whether they have any access requirements and don't know whether they should, and I'm absolutely all for asking that question. So it's not up to the person with disability having to constantly say, you know, is your venue accessible. So I think it's about being transparent with your artists and your audience. And even if your access isn't, you know, perfect in inverted commas, then still listing that, for instance, stating that if you have a step up into your venues just stating that so that a person with disability knows what to expect, and potentially can make adjustments to be able to still access your venue. We do a lot of work not only in the physical space, but also in terms of attitudes, because it's all well and good to physically access a venue. But if you're not treated, right, when you go inside that venue, that's, you know, in my opinion, just the same way, if not worse. An example I have is often I won't be let into a venue because security guard will think I'm drunk. So educating even security guards of how to treat people with disability or sometimes I'll go inside a venue and the venue staff will talk to my partner instead of to me by saying, you know, ‘does she need a chair?’ And, you know, ‘what does she need’ instead of talking to me? And yeah, so just kind of reiterating that, that those attitudes and how we can change the language we use and how we treat others. Also looking at ways that we can be more accessible for not only physically but also for people that are blind or have low vision in terms of you know, image descriptions, on social media, alt text on websites, and captioning videos and then social media posts for people that are deaf or hard of hearing, having an Auslan interpreter on stage. And then also making more relaxed shows for people that are autistic or have sensory sensitivities. And I'm seeing more of this happening, relaxed shows, which is so great for a lot of people, even people that have families or young children that want to go to a more of a relaxed environment. It opens up to various audience. And I think the other thing that I feel the music industry really learned from COVID is the ability to livestream and I have noticed that that is dropping off now. Lately, I just think it's such a shame. There's so much that could be done in that space. Like, you could, you could sell a livestream ticket and reach a whole other demographic, whether that be you know, people with disability that it you know, it is too hard to get out and see live music, but also for people that are pregnant, or people that have families or people that have chronic illness. I think there's such a way to bring music into people's homes and spaces, in ways that we were doing during COVID. But really kind of forgotten for some reason.
Chelsea
Yeah, I think, you know, there's a commercial side of that, where, you know, it does cost money to have camera operators and set up that infrastructure and, you know, a lot of the things that were missed over the COVID kind of lockdown period was the inability to monetize things very easily. And a fear that maybe if things are streamed, people won't come physically. And our priority is to get people in the venue, so they buy drinks. But it's just such a missed opportunity. And you also wonder, you know, so many venues received funding to purchase this capital infrastructure to roll out streaming. So what is there just all of this camera equipment sitting, gathering dust in cupboards now and venues all across the world? It's not just here, it's everywhere. So yeah, I'm completely with you. I think the streaming is just an incredible opportunity for everyone in terms of inclusivity for shows. I know you've spoken about accessibility at a bunch of different conferences, and it's great that these conversations are happening in these contexts. You've spoken at the Human Rights Convention Free and Equal for the NDIS. You've spoken at South by Southwest, Brunswick Music Festival, the Wheeler Centre changes you were on Q&A for ABC TV. What do you feel like their response has been? Do you think we're gaining some traction in this area or we still have a really long way to go?
Eliza
Yeah, look, I think that it's really clear that things are shifting, I think that people are really willing to step in, people are willing to be educated. And like there's some definite shifts and changes happening. Like that's for sure. And I like saying that, because I think sometimes when people just always talk about the things that need to change and the barriers, that we're not giving enough space for the fact that we are moving into a more inclusive world, and that these conversations didn't even exist in the past. And that is why for so long, I was so deeply afraid of using the word disability, but also just afraid to be me, not wanting to walk and not wanting to be carried up onto the stage because of that lack of conversation around disability. So I think yes, we are moving into a far more inclusive music industry where disability is not only being celebrated, but at times being prioritised. But I also think that we still have such a long way to go. And I think the spaces that I'm seeing it the most is in terms of representation still and in terms of attitudes as well. So, like I think people are making some real changes in the way that they are, making live music more accessible physically, but also in terms of social media marketing, people are thinking about getting an Auslan interpreter. It's all really, really great. But like I still think that we don't have enough people with disability in leadership positions,
Chelsea board representation.
Eliza
Yeah, board representation. Festivals. Just live music in general and radio, TV, record labels. I still think that there is an attitude and an ableist attitude that disability is not something that you know, I think there's still like attitudes even that people with Disability make great artists, I still think that there's some attitudes there around what people stereotypically think about people with disability and what they can and can't do, and the music that they create. And I think disabilities often been portrayed as either something really tragic or something that's really inspiring.
Chelsea
Bit of a binary, isn't it?
Eliza
and I think that often we do still fall into those spaces, and I was recently at Big Sound, and you know, without speaking about who, or what, I had a meeting with a label, and we're talking about my music, and it's going really well. And the moment that I said, I have a disability, it was like, oh, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, really apologetic? And very, like, it felt very much like that was such a tragic circumstance. And then the, the meeting was really kind of shut off straightaway, it just felt like it, that was it, that kind of close the meeting. It's so tricky, because I don't ever blame that person. Because that's what we've been, like, that's what we've seen time and time again, like, think about, yeah, like when we think about even ads, like where someone's been in a car accident. Now, they're a wheelchair user. And it was often portrayed as, like, that's the end of their life, that's all over now, like. So I think it's just either the lack of representation, but also that the representation has been skewed in that way of like that it is really a negative to have a disability, you know, or to be feared, you know, a group that we don't want to join. Whereas I think that you'll actually be lucky if you join this group, because it means that you'll be old, and you would have grown to be an elderly person, because often, that's when we do become disabled later in life. And it's also the one community group that anyone can join at any time, as well. And I don't think people often that think about that. But I think that again, it just, it just comes from lack of representation. And I think we are seeing those shifts and changes, like even as a child, I don't remember any picture books or representation of disability. Especially in a way that was authentic and positive. So, but we are seeing those shifts, and I think, you know, I had an opposite meeting at Big Sound were a record label was saying that they had a disability equity action plan, and that they were planning to make sure that they had a representation of artists with disability. So again, we are moving into that space.
Chelsea
For people listening who might not have thought about this before or you know, would want to make some changes. What are some things that you think everyone can do, you know, from an artist to a venue?
Eliza
Yeah, like, I love talking about quick wins. So if you you know, if you're a venue quick win, and is asking your artist, what their access needs are, when you ask them, what their rider requests or other quick wins would be to, you know, on your social media to start doing image descriptions. So that's describing what's in the image. And you just do that in your caption, when you're doing an Instagram post or Facebook post, you just state what's in the image. And then especially great if you're putting like a text or a poster up, if you don't put what that text is saying, then you're actually missing out on people that are blind or have low vision, being able to, to screen read that information because they can't when an image is embedded, but they can screen read text when it's in an a caption. Also, just captioning your Instagram Stories, your reels on socials, captioning your videos on YouTube, a lot of them, you know, a lot of these channels are now doing it for you, so all you have to do is click the button and it will happen. So very easy, quick win. And I think again, another thing would be just around the attitudes and language. So there's some great access consultants out there. You know, one that I really champion is Dina from TIBI access. And, you know, I guess you know, educating venues, or anyone in the music industry really about ways that we can shift attitudes. And it's really on ableism and ways that we can treat everyone with respect and in an inclusive way.
Chelsea
It’s a lot of work for you Eliza, looking after a family, developing your music career looking after clients writing and speaking out about access. I mean, do you feel a sense of duty and responsibility to advocate and speak out? But how do you ensure that you don't burn out?
Eliza
Oh, goodness, yeah. I don't know, I, you know, often I feel like I am burning out. And it's tricky. I think that often when I'm there, I've just travelled to speak at an event, I often think, well, if I'm not here, would this organisation have just given up and not got another artist with disability to speak. And if I'm not here, and no one is, then that means that nothing's moving forward. So I guess, I do feel that it's hard. It's tricky. And it is a lot at times. And sometimes if I'm completely honest, it really has affected my mental health, especially when I'm talking about things that have been really, really hard for me. And yeah, it's
Chelsea
It's a lot of emotional labour on you to be continually opening up about, you know, it's when you just want to get on with your life and your music. It's amazing that you do this. It's very appreciated.
Eliza
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I, I guess I just am really passionate about what can change. And I think that I am seeing the change. And that's really exciting. It'd be, I think it'd be far harder if I was not seeing the change happen. And I was just like, pushing and pushing and pushing, but I am seeing the change happen. I'm seeing what can continue to change. And I think that just fires me up more to keep going. But I am definitely seeing the ways that the world and the music industry is shifting. And that is really, really great, really exciting.
Chelsea
It can be really scary to speak out about, you know, things that you're passionate about. I mean, do you have any advice for people who are thinking, wow, lies is so amazing. I wish I had that confidence to speak out.
Eliza
I guess I don't feel, sometimes it can feel really hard, sometimes I don't feel confident at all. So I think just realising we're all human and that it goes in ebbs and flows, doesn't it and our ability to love ourselves and accept ourselves. And that's just, you know, I guess what makes us human, isn't it. But for me, I think I would just say, you know, if anyone's feeling like they have a story to share, because we all have a story to share. And if anyone feels like they want to be more authentic, and they want to speak about their lived experience, I think whilst it's been heavy at times, and I am really tired, I am so grateful that I have been able to share my experiences and my story. It's given my life for a lot of purpose. And not only that, it's just taken off this huge weight of the hiding. And the fear that I had of constantly having to mask and conceal who I was. And I am really feeling just really great about the fact that now I don't have to hide and now I can just be myself and it's been like a huge weight just off my shoulders.
Chelsea
You mentioned you went to big sound earlier this year, you travelled to South by Southwest. We recently spoke to Millie Millgate from South Australia about export on the Control podcast. So I really wanted to chat to you about showcasing and export. What was South by Southwest like for you?
Eliza
I think that because we had been in so many COVID lock downs it felt like even just mentally bigger than I had realised it would feel like being on a plane travelling away from my family. Doing shows for the first time really, it felt really strange, also very exciting.
Chelsea
It's so awesome that you've got a slot there.
Eliza
Yeah, absolutely. It was a dream come true. And I had really dreamt of it for a long time, I'd applied, maybe seven times six or seven times I've applied for South By and this time was the one time I got in and really excited to not only go and sing but also to then be given the chance to be on the panel and I got to interview artists that I'd really been influenced by. One is her name's Laci and she is a person of colour lives in America, blind and is an incredible advocate. So, so fiery and passionate and making huge shifts in the music industry like thinking things that are just will I oh, wow, I hadn't even thought about that. And she's started a coalition called RAMPD, which is spelled R, A, M, P, D. And they're doing a lot of work with the Grammys and a lot of organisations, and it's a worldwide coalition that I'm now part of with her. And we meet often, and to speak about our experiences all around the world. And it's really great to see the common experiences, but also things that are different and things that are changing, you know, potentially quicker as well, and trying to then bring that within the Australian music sector. And also interviewed another artist called Ruth Lyon, who is a wheelchair user, and incredible singer, songwriter, and her and I've felt like this real attached feeling, I can't describe it. But like, everything she was experiencing, I was experiencing, and we didn't know about each other. And so I just wish we had known each other about each other a long time ago. So it's felt like almost like my sister feeling that kind of really, kindred spirits. And so it was so great to meet her.
And SXSW took on my thoughts after the festival about what could potentially change as well. Like they did a lot of things that were really great. They had an interpreter on stage for people that were deaf or hard of hearing. They didn't, you know, there were a couple of things that just weren't, you know, a lot of the time, what happens is you might book an artist with disability, but then you might put them on a stage on the last day or have them in an area, that's not where the main festivals happening or not promote the show. So those kinds of things are things that I really want to change and I think that that does feed into that attitudes around disability. Also, yeah, just around the physical access of a festival is quite hard to navigate such a huge festival like South by Southwest. So the thing is, they actually had done some really great things like they had a bus, for people with disability, but it wasn't communicated with all the of the artists with disability. So it's just those kinds of things. But they were really great on taking on the feedback. And are going to make sure those things as changed for next year. And I really hope that festivals and venues, and artists don't feel like they have to get everything right the first time because we're all learning, like everything's constantly evolving and changing so quickly. And I would rather us give it a go or do, even if we just take the steps to get there, I think that's still the way to go instead of holding off altogether.
Chelsea
Do you have any advice for artists who have also had a similar goal and dream to showcase at South by Southwest? Do you think it's worth doing?
Eliza
Yeah, I think it's worth doing. But I think that you need to be really, really organised. And I think because I was in a whirlwind of COVID pandemic, and having a young family, I didn't realise the organisation that had to go into it to set up the meetings and set up the mentoring sessions that are that are provided. And that was a bit of a missed opportunity in that I didn't set up who I wanted to meet with which I learned and really changed when I went to big sound. But you know, in saying that I still had some great meetings and people reached out to me, and a lot of those connections are still going. Yeah, so it definitely, I think that's life, though, isn't it? You know, you almost don't know whether it was worth it. Maybe I won't for a little while, but maybe it'll come back in in a year or two. And they'll go, actually, that was, you know, that led to that and that. That's how life works.
Chelsea
Yeah, exactly. I just did a performance at APAX the performing arts exchange conference in Sydney a couple of weeks ago, and I have no idea, you know, is anything going to come from this or not? But, you know, it's, it's part of the experience, you know, of being an artist, and, you know, putting yourself out there and going along to these things. I know Millie Millgate, and the team at Sounds Australia always say, I'll go before you show, but that's so expensive. We can't all just afford to go to South By just to have a look. You know, it's just economically, you know, out of reach for most of us. So, I think that's great advice is try and line up any meetings you can in advance. I found that with, you know, I went to Jazz Ahead in Germany a few years ago, and I didn't do that, really. So you're just sort of in this massive space with thousands of people whose all seem to know each other. I'm sure they don't but at the time I felt like everybody knows each other here and I don't know anyone. And it's really it's like cold calling you just kind of randomly going up and chatting to people. And that's really intimidating for a lot of artists that don't feel very good about the hustle side of the industry.
Eliza
And I think it can be so overwhelming that you're going anyhow, you know, you're rehearsing, they're getting the visas, getting the travel organised, there's so much logistics that go into doing anything like that, and then the financial logistics as well. So then, to be that person that then has to try and figure out who to contact and how to contact them. It's like, it was just too overwhelming for me at that time.
Chelsea
It is a lot of planning, you know, really, you want a team, you want to spend a lot of time in advance before you get there to kind of make some plans. But you know, when you're working, and trying to make ends meet, and have a family and all these other things, you kind of don't have time to even think about it until you're on the plane on the way there. And then you're just like, so exhausted from even just packing the suitcase. It's like, I’m just going to have a wine and watch a movie. (laughs)
Changing track a little bit, I wanted to chat to you about your writing, you've written for publications, such as Mamma Mia and ABC every day, and Double J, and you've now released two books, I'd love to talk about your book, we've got this, which feature stories from disabled parents across Australia. What was the process like for you putting the book together? And what were some of your key learnings from this experience? I mean, what an incredible project.
Eliza
It came about, because it was actually an ABC scholarship for a regional person with disability. And I applied for that with the idea of ‘We've GotThis’ and so became a podcast series to begin with. But in the back of my mind, I always really felt like it would be a great book. And the reason being is because when I was thinking about having a child and pregnant, I tried to find a book like this, and there was absolutely nothing out there. You get given so many books on parenting, and I couldn't find anything about disability and parenting. And I really wanted to know, even just like the yeah, just even those little things of like, how do you do this? And you know, how do you know for instance, I've got low muscle tone in my hands and so I didn't feel like I could give my baby a bath. Is there any equipment that I could use to do that, and just those kind of little hacks on ways that we can parent as disabled people.
But yeah, there wasn't anything out there. And that's really what I set out to change. And I had what a chapter in ‘Growing Up Disabled in Australia’ that was edited by Carla Findlay and was published by black ink. And so I went after that coming out, I went back to them and said, I've got this book idea, what do you think, and they were really onboard straightaway, which was very, it was just such so great that they supported the project. And then it's became a book that came out in March this year. And that features, you know, my experiences and also the experiences of 25 parents with disability that identify as disabled, deaf or chronically ill. And they wrote, some of them wrote their own pieces. And some of them I interviewed and wrote with them, as an accessible way to be part of the book. And it's now becoming an international version. So I've now done it all over again, with Canadian parents, American parents and British parents. And so it'll come out next year in February, same title, but a completely different book. And I also have a children's book that's just come out.
Chelsea
‘come over to my house’, which you've co written with Sally rippin. Tell us about that.
Eliza
Yeah, I had the idea, I guess, because of we've got this that I wanted to kind of make like the sister book for children. And so it is, it's like ‘we've got this’ because it actually goes inside all the homes of these families that I got to know really well to authentically portray parents and children with disabilities. So inside, you know, it's come over to my house come over and play and it comes from a child's perspective, inviting another child into their home. And inside the home. It's, you know, shows, I guess the similarities between us as people but also shows the ways that these parents and children are really creative and adaptable. And I guess, really fun as well, like it shows ways that having a disability can be something that's really not to be feared, but also something that can be said to be celebrated really, ultimately. And it also has a conversation starter at the end of the book for parents. So ways that we can talk about disability. So whilst it's will be that representation, there will also be a great conversation starter.
Chelsea
That sounds incredible. How did you know you were a writer? How did you get the confidence to step into a literature space? It's so different from music.
Eliza
I guess I, because I love writing lyrics as well, like I knew that I love to write. And I had I've always written so even as a teenager, I'd write like, elaborate stories. And it just always felt like that was something I really like to do kept journals all my life. And even as a child, I wrote in one of those journals that one day, I wanted to be a journalist and a singer. And I ended up doing yeah, with the ABC. I've done a lot of journalism, a lot in audio, but a lot also in writing. So yeah, I guess just, you know, practising and doing small articles, and then wanting to share my story in that in that space felt like the next step
Chelsea
You've achieved so much already? Do you feel successful? Do you celebrate the wins? Or is it just one thing to the next to the next to the next?
Eliza
I think that's a really great question. I think you can just feel like you're just constantly going and going, and it has felt like that, like I haven't really had much time to reflect. Recently, I've been really trying to stop and go actually, this is, yeah, like, enjoy the success and enjoy all the work that I've put into, you know, trying to advocate and sharing my story and realising that it is a really positive thing. So I think I've been trying to do that a bit more reflect and realise that it is to be celebrated.
Chelsea
What do you still want to achieve?
Eliza
I guess, I'd really like to make a full-length album that I'm really proud of that I can just put on my record player as a vinyl and feel really, really proud of it. And like I've really made something, that's yeah, like I've said what I really want to say. And I think that that, you know, something that might take a little time to get to that space. But that's definitely something I'd really like to do. And yeah, just continue doing what I'm doing and make more books, make another children's book, which I'm working on at the moment. And just yeah, continue creating and advocating for change.
Chelsea
Eliza Hull you are amazing.
Eliza
Thank you
Chelsea
Thank you so much for all the work that you do and for sharing your music and stories with the world. And thank you for joining us on the control podcast.
Eliza
Thank you so much for having me.
