Amara Primero
Episode and transcript produced by Chelsea Wilson
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
music, composers, world, people, musician, budgets, industry, women, publisher, libraries, , production, hear, company, unscripted, track, conversations, opportunities, film
TRANSCRIPT
Chelsea: Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to game changers and change makers in the music and creative industries. I’m Chelsea Wilson, your host and in this final episode for season two I’m speaking to award winning screen composer and Primerchord Production Music CEO and Founder Amara Primero
Originally from Perth, Amara studied classical music at the western Australian academy of performing arts before moving to Sydney and working in the contemporary scene as a session musicia and educator. Breaking into the world of screen composition she has worked for major networks such as Channel 7, SBS, Channel 10, ABC, streaming giants such as Prime and for Reese Witherspoon's company Hello Sunshine. Establishing her own company Primerchord Music Production based in Sydney and LA, Amara now leads a team of over 20 composers, creating library music, film scores and music for productions across the world. Winner of Best Original Music at the 2019 Los Angeles Cinematography Awards, she recently became an ambassador for APRA AMCOS.
In this conversation I ask Amara about establishing her own company, why she left the classical music world behind, the difference between the music scenes of Sydney and LA and her take on diversity in the film industry.
Chelsea: Amara Primero, welcome to the control podcast.
Amara: Thank you for having me, Chelsea.
Chelsea: I'm really excited to chat to you about your work composing for film and television and establishing your own company. But firstly, if we can, I'd love to go back in time to the start of your career. You studied classical piano in WA, what was this time in your life like?
Amara: It was, look, I was young. And it was exciting. And the world was my oyster. At that age, you know, I was I was 18. So you know, you're discovering yourself, you're discovering the opportunities, you're discovering what the world has out there for you. So in a nutshell, it was a wonderful time, I felt like I had direction. Okay, so I felt like I had, I felt like I knew what I was going to do. You know, piano, I had been playing the piano since the age of four. That was one thing I knew, I knew that music was going to be a career for me in whatever form it took. I also knew that I wanted to be a composer. But that was a little bit vague about the pathway on how I was going to get there. So at least I knew that music was my direction. So of course, you know, I studied, I went on to university to study I went to WAPA, the West Australian Academy of Performing Arts. And I spent a couple of years there studying classical piano. Now again, because that's all I knew. So that's what I went into. I thought, well, I've been learning piano and classical piano my whole life. So it made sense for me to just go and do a degree in that.
Chelsea: That's what you do
Amara: exactly. What shall I just went with what I thought music is this thing that I want to do. So I'm going to do this. It's what I know. I didn't finish the degree. So internally, my musical direction started to take, you know, a different path, I started to go down the road, you know, personally, of contemporary jazz, I was looking at songwriting. And of course, when you're at WAPA, and you're doing a classical degree, that is very much frowned upon by all of your lectures, or not all of the lectures, I shouldn't say that, there were some incredible lecturers there. But particularly a couple of the piano teachers I had over the time. You know, I remember getting a gig at a winery in Perth in the Swan Valley. And it was so great. I mean, you know what it's like, as a musician, especially at 18, to think you have a permanent gig somewhere at a winery, playing your instrument. You think, well, this is great like, what a great start. And so I was really proud of it. And I remember going to my piano teacher and telling her and she was very, very classical teacher, Russian, as well. I'm going to figure she's not listening to this. So it's fine. (laughs). But I remember telling her and I was so excited about the gig. And I said, look, I've got this job in a winery playing jazz on a Sunday afternoon for three hours, and they pay me for it, and they feed me and you know, they wait on me and I get to play music. And I remember the look she gave me it was she was unimpressed. She couldn't be more unimpressed. Actually, the look, the pursed lips. If you've seen ‘The Devil Wears Prada’, and Meryl Streep with the character, she plays Miranda Priestly, that was the look she gave me. And it was a bit confusing to me. Because I thought isn't this what you want for any of your students in the world is to be going out there and being able to share their music. But for her it was a case of you're now not focused on classical, what you're supposed to be doing. And I think that might have been a bit of a pivotal point for me to then start to look into other ways of discovering my musical journey and seeing what else is out there. Because I started to come up against a few more roadblocks, that other opportunities were presenting in other areas of music, but they weren't aligning with what I was doing at the uni. So that's that was sort of my time at WAPA, which I learned so much. Don't get me wrong from some of the lecturers there. They were incredible. I learned a bunch of theoretical knowledge that you cannot learn anywhere else in, well, I shouldn't say you can't learn it anywhere else, but you know, it's an institution that has a very high caliber of teaching. And so I did get a lot out of it. But at the same time, I think for me, I wasn't necessarily cut out for that, that journey.
Chelsea: just a really restrictive way to do things. Isn't that kind of mindset around, if you're going to be a proper classical pianist, you must do this. I mean, you know, you also need to pay your rent, like to have a paid gig is also part of being a musician. So the idea to just kind of scoff at that - it's also just a privilege to not have to work and to be able to just dedicate yourself to the hours of practice. Who can afford to do that?
Amara: Exactly. You know, I sort of think well, if anyone is doing music in any capacity, that's something to celebrate. If you're a musician and you know, that's where you want your paths, or what you want your path to be. And if you have an opportunity to present your musical palette and skills in any particular way, well then say yes, do it, you know, I was 18 at the time, and it was a great opportunity. You know, I'd left school, first year uni and to be sort of met was that, you know that resistance was a little bit disheartening, but in many ways, it was the thing that sort of has shaped me and has continued to probably shaped me every time I come up against those roadblocks with people in, you know, different even industry now, situations, it just sort of creates a bit of a fire in my belly to accomplish something even bigger and better.
Chelsea: So you went from WAPA, you then moved to Sydney, and you changed track and studied contemporary music and performance at JMC Academy and started doing a lot of gigs. But why the decision to just fully leave classical music behind?
Amara: I don't think I left it, but well, you know what I probably did, I left it behind at the time. And it's funny when people say sometimes you return to your roots, I certainly have now I think with my career, I've definitely I'm using all of those classical, you know, theoretical knowledge and understanding that I learned in my sort of formative years. So that's so important, but at the time, I did leave it behind, so to speak. And because it was about creating for me. You know, some people are re-creators of music. So I think in the classical world, there's a huge emphasis on recreating the music, recreating Beethoven, Chopin, Handel, you know, older, older classics, and there are some exceptional re-creators of music. It's a bit like, you know, in the industry, when we say, you know, a covers artists, you know, they're incredible performers, but they do covers, and that's what they love to do. And then there are the people that don't necessarily feel drawn to, you know, performing covers, and they want to write their own material and perform that. And I think that's probably where I was, was that I wasn't really, I didn't see much scope in creating in the classical world as much. Because it was so focused on recreating, and that's where songwriting and contemporary music there had this very improvised element to it, and because of improvisation, that's creating, you know, on the fly and I think that's what drew me to it. And from that improvisation and that ability to have that freedom around music, that's sort of been the thing that has led me then to the career I have now, which is, you know, screen composition, where you're constantly creating, and you're constantly using those improvised, you know, motifs and improvised just toolbox and skills.
Chelsea: So you were living in Sydney, you were doing a lot of gigs, but you're also teaching for a time in a high school. So what was that turning moment for you, when you decided to quit the day job and put all of your energy into your composing?
Amara: I can remember the day really clearly, it was a huge pivotal moment, in my career. I probably took the teaching gig in a high school, because it felt like the stable responsible thing to do. I had spent so many years doing the gigs, you know, live performance, songwriting, doing small bits and pieces, you know, here and there and, and doing a lot of a lot of creative work, but there was nothing really stable. And so that's why I took the teaching gig and I thought, look, I can always continue to do my art on the side. And I hate saying that now ‘my art on the side’, which really, it should have been that I was doing my art first and foremost, and then teaching on the side. But, you know, like, it's a natural progression for a lot of people, they end up doing their art on the side. So I did continue that. But I took the teaching job, it was stable. And it's not to say that I didn't have some great times doing it, you know, there was some wonderful interactions with the staff and the students. But I actually felt like I needed a little more of a challenge while I was there. And so I remember going there's a whole lot of stuff that happened in between this, you know, over the years, but there was a point in my teaching career that I thought, Look, I really want to have a lot more responsibility and a challenge. So I'm going to go for a middle management job. And it was like a, when I say middle management, it was a year coordinator job. And I thought, that's great. I can teach and then I can be in charge of a year group and it'll give me more work to do and more responsibility. And, you know, I was really ready for that. Now, I was not in a cocky way, but I was so sure I had this job. I thought yeah, like they know me and they know me, they love me. They think I'm great. Well, I think they think that I'm great. And, you know, I went up for this job and I was sure that I was going to get it. The Assistant Principal brought me into her office one afternoon, I just come back from year eight camp. So I was oh my god, you know being on a year eight camp, you know, with 13 year olds. Yeah, you don't want to imagine. Again, it had its fun points as well. But you know, it's anyway. So I got off the bus, I'd been at year eight camp, I went into the assistant principal's office, and I thought she was going to tell me that I have the job. This is great to go into my weekend with this news. I went into her office, she said, all right, take a seat Amara. And she told me in a nutshell, unfortunately, you didn't get the job. Now, in that moment, I was sleep deprived, I'd come off, as I said, a bus load of year eight students, you know, 100, and whatever, 120 students, you know, four days in the bush with them. And I couldn't probably control my emotions that well. So of course, I just broke down. Like, I mean, that's not me to sort of break down in a moment like that in front of the assistant principal, but I broke down into a puddle of tears. And I don't know what she was thinking. But I said, look, it's not even about this. It's not really, I'm not actually that upset. And I couldn't probably put it into words and explain it to her or even explain it to myself at the time. But I think it was maybe there were tears of relief and tears of now is your opportunity to be able to go and really take a risk and do something different. So I stayed at the school, I think for maybe another year, year, and I can't actually remember now maybe it was two years. But all at the same time, I had made it my mission in that very moment when she said you didn't get the job, I thought that's it, I'm going to be a screen composer. That's it. That was the decision. I know, this was a really long-winded story to get to that point, but that was the moment. ‘No, sorry, you didn't get this job’ - and that spurred me then to go and actually fulfil my dreams. And so that's, you know, where every, every single day, I look at what I'm doing. And I think I'm so lucky, I am so blessed to be doing what I'm doing and it was all because of that day, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen some other way. But I think sometimes life just gives you that that push and that disappointment at the time. And that's the kick, you need to then go and spur you to the next thing and to go on really chase your dreams and what you're after.
Chelsea: Yeah, I guess it's just that sign, or that moment that makes you go, actually I'm not on the right course. And maybe this isn't for me, the teaching thing is really interesting. And I know we were just talking about it briefly before we started recording just around this binary concept that a lot of musicians go into teaching sort of, when you tell people I'm gonna go to uni and studying music, they go, oh, you can become a music teacher. Yeah, just people don't often think there's so many other opportunities within the music industry, more broadly, this massive ecosystem of all the opportunities of roles that are music related, and screen and film being one of them. They're just not very clear pathways. You know, if you go and do a nursing degree, you can be a nurse at the end and go work at a hospital like it's a very set path. Whereas what we do, you have to be entrepreneurial. So you are an entrepreneur. And you had that confidence to make that move. So what was the process? What happened? When was the first time you had your music used in film, and what did that feel like?
Amara: It was a bit gradual, in some ways, because I had a lot of gigs in TV commercials and internet campaigns and things like that, so there was that feeling. And you know, even that was exciting. Anytime that any work that you've done, appears on the screen in some form. It's exciting. But probably the time when my music was used in in a full TV show, it was a cooking show. And that was the first time that I heard all of the whole show was my music. Yeah. And I think that was, it was fun. It was a different experience to when you hear your music in some form, like your song playing a song that you've written and you hear it playing somewhere in a in a public arena, or you hear it on the radio, or you know, it's being streamed or something or being performed. It was different because it was part of a story. It was part of someone else's story. So you've got the and like we were talking just before this, you know your husband is involved in in the film and TV industry. So you know you've you know all about the TV show is a story in itself. And then the music comes along. And that's another story but you put them together and you become connected to this bigger story. And I think that's probably the feeling that I had. When I when I first heard the music on the show for the first time I thought, wow, this is a different feeling to just hearing the music stand alone. It's now with something it's under dialogue or it's setting a scene, it's setting an establishing shots somewhere, you know, of the Hunter Valley or you know, sweeping plains somewhere in Australia. And you think this is a very different feeling, because now I've got this visual with the music. This is, this is amazing. It made it like it did, it made me feel something, and not because it was my music, but just, we all feel something I think, you know, if we, if we've got a heartbeat, we all feel something when we see when we hear music, and we see it matched paired with, with visual, there is just a feeling that happens. That's that's the thing, we put the two together and they marry so well.
Chelsea: Yeah, that's where the magic happens.
Amara: That is, yeah, that's that's it. So. And Chelsea, I've got to say that that feeling hasn't gone away. You know, it's not something and I think that's probably a good thing. And it means that you're you should still be doing what you're doing. I think in any career, you know, if you still get that buzz, if you still get excitement, if you still feel proud and really happy with the work that you've created with someone else or with another team, then you should still be doing that. You know, I think the day that I start to take it for granted that oh, there's my music on TV again. ‘Yeah, whatever, I don't care;’ I think that's when I start need to start, you know, maybe reassessing and thinking, Well, if you're not getting that same joy, and that same thrill and buzz, maybe it's time to pivot in another direction.
Chelsea: It is really amazing, though that synergy between moving image and music. And anyone that's studied film, you know, that's such a huge part of it. I always find it really interesting, the process of filmmaking that music seems to be the very last piece of the puzzle, and sometimes the director's wrapped the project has moved on to another project before the music's finished on the movie. And I think what? because the music indicates the emotion that you're meant to be feeling in that moment right?
Amara: Exactly, exactly. I know what you mean. And I've had different cases where, as you said, you get a picture lock, and they finished the edit. And then now you're brought on to do the music. And they're usually in a rush. And they say we don't have very long at all, how fast can you do the music. But then I think having worked with sometimes producers and directors, repeat clients, they have started to bring me on at an earlier stage in the process. So sometimes they might have, for example, a script. And or they might have just an idea or even a pitch document and say we're thinking of making this. Do you have any ideas? Do you have any initial thoughts? And here are the characters. Or you know, here, if it's a documentary? Well, this is what the documentary is going to be about? Have you got any thoughts? You know, can you start maybe developing a palette and so when they bring you on at the early stage, I think that's a really lovely journey to go. There's pros and cons of both, actually, there's not really any pros and cons. There's probably just pros of both, in the sense that it's sometimes fun to be brought onto a gig at the very end, because it's kind of over and done with really quickly. And you think, oh, this won't take me too long, great. You know, and then you're on to the next one. So that can sometimes be just a nice, short, little gig. And then if they bring you on, and the project is from the very beginning, if they say here's the script, you know that you're going to be in for a long haul. And it is kind of nice to be on that journey, because then you have a lot of creative input along the way. And I suppose it depends on the composer, I personally like to be brought on fairly early so I can have that creative input with the director and the producer. And we can have those musical palette conversations and we can try some ideas, and you know, people can sit back and just literally, there's nothing's been shot yet. And they can just sit back with it and listen and think Yeah, I actually I can imagine this really fitting with the show with the tone of the show. So I quite like that process.
Chelsea: And is there a lot of conversations around what they want it to sound like just people send you reference tracks, we want something that sounds a bit like this, or some people just leave you completely to your own devices.
Amara: Yeah, absolutely. It's always a different scenario. Some will be really, really specific about what they want these, this is the tone. These are the reference tracks. This is a temp track we're using at the moment, and everyone really likes this. And you know what happens there in that scenario, everybody really likes the temp track. And so then you're thinking, well, okay, how do I do something pretty much when everybody really likes the temp track, what they're asking you to do is do an exact sound alike without infringing copyright. That's probably hard. That's the hardest case to sort of work with. I mean, but you manage it. But the other scenario is when they have just a few discuss a few different ideas. This is what we're thinking but what were you thinking, you know, maybe you might have something else in mind, and they're lovely discussions to have with people when, when the director or the producers are open to your side of things that, you know, they might come out with, well, we kind of want the score to have the instrumentation of x, y, and z. You know, and we don't want any strings, you know, I did have that once with a project, and he said, absolutely no strings, I do not want any cello. I don't want anything, nothing at all. And it was very, very specific, like really specific. And I thought, and I respect that, I thought, yeah, I, I think I was able to interpret and understand where he was coming from. So when he said that, what he was probably referring to was that he didn't want a lush, warm, orchestral feel. I think that's what he was after. But then when I did start to put in some nuances of cello, and I might have put it through a guitar amp or something crazy.
Chelsea: You rebel (laughs)
Amara: Living on the edge (laughs). And, you know, I might have put in, put a cello in and then put it through a guitar amp or something. And he might, you know, he said something like, Oh, that's a really interesting texture. I like that sound, they're not realising that it was actually a cello, it was strings. So they're sort of interesting. Sometimes it's interpreting when somebody says, I don't want this, or I do want this, it's actually interpreting that and thinking, Okay, do they really mean that exactly? Or do they mean something different? So?
Chelsea: Yes, the non-musician, briefing a musician? It's always interesting.
Amara: And in some cases, like I was saying, in some cases, it's not a bad thing. Because sometimes you can kind of get them around to, to a space where they think, okay, I actually quite liked the suggestions, or you're the musician, well, whatever you come up with. Sometimes, if you're dealing with a, you know, in the very, very opposite spectrum, if you're dealing with a director or a producer who has a lot of musical knowledge, that also can be challenging, because right down to things that I remember getting a page of notes, which was wonderful, in some ways, you know, that there was so much terminology, musical terminology. It's like, yeah, you're speaking my language. This is great. But then it was right down to specifics, there were crescendos here and diminuendos here, and if that C could be pitched by, you know, a microtome, I was thinking, this is specific! And, you know, but it can go both ways. I think there's no clear, I tend to go around in circles sometimes when I do answer questions, but because you, it can go both ways. You know, it's not just this is the way it is, or this is the way it is. There are so many different scenarios. And I think that's yeah, people being aware that you will come up against so many.
Chelsea: Yeah, because that's just part of the collaborative experience, right, is trying to meet in the middle and ultimately, you're both working to serve that same purpose of telling that story on screen. Have you had any moments where you feel that the brief they've given you is not what you would put with that scene if it was 100% up to you? Or do you normally agree?
Amara: Absolutely. I think it though, I don't say it. Yes, yes, there have been many occasions. And there are two ways that you can approach that. There's either just shut up and say nothing and just go with it. Or you can make it more collaborative. And you can sort of like what we were saying putting forward some other ideas and putting forward some other options, or a great one is delivering what they want. And then giving them another option. And then having that allows them to sort of the choice. Oh, okay. Well, that's interesting. I like what you did there. And that has happened in a couple of cases for me. In fact, with most gigs, I will give them a few different options. So say, if we're doing let's just say break down a scene, for example, and it's just, you know, act one, we'll just do the scene one, Act One. And we need a particular type of music. The brief might say something, the director said, this is kind of what I'm after. I will deliver that. But I'll also deliver maybe two other options also, or two other sketches, at least depending on you know, the timeframe. I think it's always good to over deliver, give more than what you've been asked. And that way, it kind of opens up a dialogue in a conversation.
Chelsea: And what are those deliverables look like? Do you kind of submit sketches in a sort of MIDI format before you get musicians in to record them? Or is it hard for a producer or director to kind of imagine how it's going to sound as a finished product based on a kind of MIDI example?
Amara: Yeah, I know I just said there, that I'll you know, put together a few sketches often they're not sketches at all, they're the final products (laughs). Like pretty, pretty much pretty much final, maybe not mixed yet or maybe not, not mixed or mastered. But they are pretty much the final product. Because I think that's the way … there was a time once, where composers could like, say, John Williams, and I think he's probably the only composer left in Hollywood who can actually sit down at a piano with a producer and say, imagine this line, this is going to be the horn line, and imagine this, this is going to be the flutes. And it's up to the director say Steven Spielberg, who he works with, you know, all the time, or whoever it is to then just say, yes, I trust you, I can imagine, I can hear that that's what the flutes will sound like. And I can imagine that they weren't whether they're going to be the horns, or that's going to be the cello, etc. But, you know, anyone else in the industry, if you're not John Williams has to produce a final product or near completion. So if there is a budget for live musicians, then I will put together the, as you put it, the MIDI software instruments are incredibly sophisticated now that a lot of people have, especially if they're not musicians, but even if they're musicians, because they're real live samples that have been recorded. Sometimes they're so close to the real thing that it's very hard to even distinguish whether or not depending on the instrument, whether or not it's a live performance or a sample. So in some cases, they're really wonderful and they can pass as the real instrument. But if there is a budget, I will put together everything out of the box, we call it so software instruments MIDI, I think the word MIDI sometimes, though, when we say MIDI, now we kind of think back to the 90s or something and yes, terrible, and just for everyone out there, MIDI is not like that anymore, MIDI, real samples, you know, they are live, the London Symphony Orchestra, for example, you know, you can, you can buy these instrument libraries that have incredibly sophisticated palettes of music, and you pay, you spend, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars for these samples. So they are high quality, they're not those karaoke 90s MIDI tracks anymore. So that's what I will put together, I will use all the software, and maybe a couple of live elements, you know, I'll record myself live on a flute or you know, piano or whatever it is to just lift it a little bit, that will go in as the near final product to the director, and, or the production team. And they'll have a listen to it. And if there is a budget for live musicians, that's when from there, we take it to orchestration. And then the orchestrator puts all the music, you know, puts all the parts together, and then the instrumentalists will record that after the fact. But in the majority of cases these days, unless it's a film, and a big feature film at that, or a big budget TV series, it will be expected that you are one woman band, so to speak. So you need to have everything coming out of the box. And if you are to put any live instruments within the recording, that's up to me to then go and hire a session musician. So I'll you know, hire a couple of guitarists, or if I need some vocals, I'll hire a vocalist. The other instruments I can kind of put down myself, if I need a mad drummer, well, then I'll hire a mad drummer, I'm not going to try and attempt that myself. So they're the sort of the elements that I will do. But everything has to be sort of produced in a near completed product.
Chelsea: So you're doing all of that yourself, you're doing the composing and then you're doing the recording, you're during the mixing you’re doing the mastering. That’s huge.
Amara: I will send things off for mastering, again, if the budget is really really small, then in some cases, you just do it yourself. But often I will send it off to be mastered somewhere mixed mixed. I can kind of do that myself. But again, it's actually really good to get external ears. It's really good to get someone else to do it because you've been so close to it. And it's great to be able to just focus on the composing, putting it all together and then sending it off and having someone else's ears on the mixing and mastering.
Chelsea: Yeah, because it's a complete different state of mind also a composing state of mind to a mixing state of mind and you need to move on to assumedly, the next project as well. Can you tell us the difference with writing for unscripted versus scripted television projects?
Amara: Yeah of course. Scripted you will get usually a locked picture. So a picture lock and you will score the music to that, so that's probably the biggest difference. Whereas with unscripted, it's usually, and this is because this is a difference between budgets as well. It's usually that you deliver a suite of music or a library of music or a catalogue of music appropriate for the show, and the editors will then edit the show around the music or edit the music to the show. So that's probably the biggest difference. And the budgets play a huge part in this because budgets for scripted TV, or scripted film, will usually account for the fact that scoring takes a lot more time and work. Because you're working on, you're not just writing a piece of music with a general feel, which is what you can do with unscripted you can sort of go, Okay, this is a, this is the tone of the show, it's a competition show, we're going to need a lot of EDM music, Alright, get to work and start writing EDM music, you have to take into account a lot of other things with scoring, there's hit points, there's moments of action, it is a picture lock, so nothing can be moved, you have to write with every single bit of, you know, inflection in the storyline. And that's, more work. And that equals more money. So with a film and scripted TV, there's usually more money to account for that process. Whereas in the unscripted field, there's a lot lower it’s a huge industry unscripted. But yet, there's just the, the budgets are lower, the budgets are just so much lower than the scripted field. And they have to sort of consider, well, we're happy to use, of course, they probably love things scored. But they have to just sort of consider well, for that budget, we know that we can only get a suite of music or you know, a catalogue of music, and we'll edit it to it, which is not necessarily a bad thing, either, because it gives a lot of creative control. And the editors then have a ball with editing the picture to the beats, you know, to the to the moments in the music, there are edit points within the music as well. That's a whole lot of whole other conversation about how you how you write music, with the intention for it to be synced into the unscripted world. That's a whole other ballgame about how to write and the types of, you know, frequencies to avoid and delivering with stems and endpoints. So that's probably for another day. They had two yeah, two very different way, the way the way you compose is just completely different.
Chelsea: Changing track a little Can you tell us about establishing your own company?
Amara: Yes, I can. That came out of necessity. And it flows on really nicely from us talking about budgets, and lack of money in the unscripted world. It blows my mind that there seems to be I sometimes wonder, is it that the budgets are low in the unscripted world? Or is it that they're just low for music? So this is something that's really interesting. And I would like to crack that one, I'd like to crack that one.
Chelsea: Well, I guess they're not paying actors are they? So it's definitely a cheaper production all around.
Amara: This is what I wonder sometimes I think, well, but reality and unscripted and a lot of the unscripted stuff is on commercial TV. And commercial TV has a lot of money behind it with advertisers, you know, Netflix and, and Stan and all of those streaming giants, they have subscriptions. But there's no advertising. So the network's are still making a lot of money. And I could be I could be wrong. And you know, please, network executives, tell me if I'm wrong (laughs). But they wouldn't be making this content if there wasn't money in it. So the money is definitely going somewhere. But one thing it's not reaching are the music budgets. And that is a very curious case for me daily, I am wondering this, and getting back to you asked, you know about starting my own company, it came from a place of rather than feeling frustrated, hearing all the time, because what would happen, I'll backtrack a little bit, what would happen is that I was getting hired to do a lot of unscripted document documentary series, True Crime stuff. And companies had budget to pay me which was great. And then after a little while, they were saying we have some things in the works. But we don't have a budget for it. We'd love to use you. But we don't have a budget for music this time. And I said, So what are you going to do for music? And I said, well, we'll just use the libraries out there. There's, you know, a few big names, big names libraries, and I said, ‘Oh, Okay, they're great’. There's a bit look, if you have music on the cutting room floor that you might have laying around that we could licence for a little bit of money, that'd be great. And fortunately, I did. And I said, ‘Well, look, I do have some things that might work and it's not being used. So sure, okay, it's going to cost you this much’, which was significantly lower, like a fraction of the cost of what it would be to actually hire me as a composer. And so they said, well, this is great. And then of course, what would happen then is then another project came along, and the same question was asked, and then it was asked by another company, you know, and so with all of these conversations over time that I was having with people, they said, we're really struggling with music budgets, we just, they won't give us money to allow and accommodate for original music. I think that was the key original music. They said, we want our own palette, but unfortunately, we have to use the music from a library, which then we risk, we do this wonderful documentary on, I don't know, climate change. And then there is a risk that the music might turn up in some sort of crass toilet commercial, I don't know, you know, you know, this is this, that was a really bad example. But this is what they were sort of saying, we have to take that risk that this music will be just not turn up somewhere else, you know, and that probably is the risks that they take when they have no money, and they have to use live music libraries, because then they don't get their own palette. But the way it was, that's just the way the industry was starting to turn over. And this is just, this has been happening for a long time. This has been happening over the last few years, quite a few years. And so I thought, well, I could complain about this, because I was hearing a lot of other composers, a lot of other musicians just harping on about how there's just exactly that - No budgets, no budgets, no budgets, and they kept going on about it and they kept sort of, it became this sort of this angry fest, you know, the protests, the not even a protest, because, you know, musicians just get together and just have a good old, you know, bitch about things. I thought, look, I could do that. Or I could just maybe if you can't beat him join him. And I thought, so. They're all moving to these libraries, which they can licence, these libraries. I mean, they're huge. They've got 10s of 1000s of tracks in their libraries. And they're licencing them, in some cases for a few couple of $100. And they have access to 10s of 1000s of pieces of music. And I thought, well, this is just ridiculous. But how can I try and bring a personal approach to these companies, TV production companies know me, they've worked with me before. If I had a library, would they use me? And it turns out the long story short was yes, they would. And they were, and they have been, and they continue to. And so it's what's grown from this sort of necessity, has actually turned into this really wonderful thriving, business and opportunities have come from it for other composers. So I've now got a team of 20 composers, approximately, on the books that regularly write for TV briefs that come through. And unfortunately, you know, again, we are dealing and this is something that I'm, you know, hoping that we can change collectively as an industry in the long run. But in the here, and now, what's really nice is that we're now giving composers opportunities to write for these TV shows and have placements. We're competing with the big libraries in the world. These composers are having placements, and they're earning quarterly royalties off the placements. And I think that's probably something that every musician, composer, songwriter who any music creator would love to think that their music could land in a TV show, set and forget, it's on something on commercial TV, as I said anything on commercial TV, channel seven, they have big advertisers on there, and that's how we make our money and royalties. There's going to be residuals over time, if it's on a reality TV show, you are going to get quarterly payments, you know, in the long run, and it's going to pay off. So as I said, there's another side of that about upfront fees that need to change. But in the meantime, this is a wonderful workaround until such time as we can start to educate the industry and start to really budget because you need to be paid for the time you put into creating something. Royalties have always been there. That's definitely something that you know, that's just expected royalties are the way that you know, they've always measured you know, income are off placements for the last, I don't know, 100 years or something. But an upfront used to be, you know, you get paid for the time that you put in. But now they're all disappearing in this world. And that's something that I would love to see changed.
Chelsea: Primerchord production music, as you mentioned, you have 20 composers from around the world, how are you managing the team? How do you go about working out who is the right composer for specific briefs?
Amara: Yeah, well, it has grown to I mean, 20 composers, doesn't seem like, it might seem like a lot to some, and it might not seem like a lot to others, it is quite a lot to manage. I have the help of a wonderful A&R coordinator, Isabella, and she, she is doing what I used to do when it was, you know, the company was smaller, and I had fewer composers on our books. And she has come on board. Well, she's actually been with me from the very beginning. But she has taken a lot of the pressure off the A&R side of things. So actually liaising with the artists, so when an artist comes on board, well, she'll actually scout an artist as well. She's always got her ears and eyes open, as do I. But if she does find somebody, or if I find somebody, then she's the first point of contact that, you know, where they, they communicate, or she communicates with the composers and basically helps them get the most out of their music or helps bring out … it's almost like her role as a bit of a producer. I think that's what A&R is, a lot of the time is production. It's the type of producing, it's sitting with the artist, or it's, you know, conversing on the phone or over email, and listening to their music and saying, Well, this is the brief. And this is, so far, these are the elements of the piece that you've written, which are great, or the album that you've written, these are the elements that are working, how can we sort of lift this to the next level? Or maybe there's a few things that we need to just modify in the track or the tracks in order to get it to a deliverable point to the production company.
Chelsea: I know before you sort of touched on royalties, I did want to circle back to that. How do you track where all those funds are going? And when there's so many streaming platforms now internationally, and shows are being moved from different networks, here and there? What's that pathway in terms of tracking where the money moves.
Amara: APRA are pretty good. APRA do their job really well, in terms of, you know, keeping, keeping track of everything, you know, keeping track of the cue sheet, I think cue sheets are key, that's probably the most important thing is that we have to where possible get hold of the cue sheets. You know, and me personally, as well, as a composer, I need to get hold of the cue sheets to make sure that they're filed correctly, that all the information is correct, you know, with the composer and the publishing, and APRA do their very best to make sure that it does go to all of the corresponding APRA sort of talks with other PRO's around the world, they do a very good job there. But I think the key thing is that a publisher is the most important thing to have. And that's what I've done recently is I've got a publisher on board. And the publisher, then takes all of that stress off, you are having to sort of go, Okay, how many countries is this being aired in, because in some cases, a TV show, it might be, you know, ad all over Europe, and in the tiny, tiny little countries, you know , and I think, I can't keep track of all of that. So a publisher, what they do is they take the cue sheet, and they go and they disseminate it all around the globe to all of the PRO's. And that along with audio recognition, which isn't always accurate, I think the cue sheets probably do a better job in that respect. But publishers, you know, go out there and they just basically keep an eye on everything. I do sometimes wonder if everything is accurate and coming through. Because there is a lot. You know, there's a lot of music out there, you know, we're starting to talk about 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of, you know, different queues, and you know, around in parts of the world that probably I've never heard of. But you know, I'll look at my APRA statements sometimes and think, oh, you know, we're airing something in Germany and Brazil, and you know, you think what's that, like, I have no idea. And it's trying to keep an eye on and think of what was that show and you know, what was that cue? What was that song? That can kind of be a job in itself, but I think having a publisher I has really helped, it's definitely helped the process of just being able to sort of put that trust in them because that is their job to find the music. Probably as a songwriter, that's what you found the same thing. You just you have a publisher, and yep, that's your thing. My thing is to make sure that the music is created.
Chelsea: And how do you know it's the right publisher for you?
Amara: look, that's a good question. I was adamant for a long time that I didn't need a publisher. And, and if my publisher hears this, he won't be very happy with what I say next. But I'm still adamant that I could possibly do this without a publisher. And I'm not saying that at all, you know, to, to negate, you know, what publishers do? Because I think it really depends on the scope in which you know, where you're at in the industry, I think where I'm at now, I do need a publisher. I think it makes sense. I could do it without one. But it would be messy, and it will be time consuming, and it will take a long time. So what happened was that my publisher, he was sort of was able to sort of seek me out, I think he could sort of see how my career was moving and growing. And he sort of approached me and said, ‘Look, I think you need a publisher’. And I sort of said,’ well, of course you do, you're a publisher, of course’. But I see now that it's been really beneficial, because the administrative work has been taken off my shoulders. Like if you think about a TV show, that has one one series, say one typical four part Docu series, you know, which is something that I do a lot of might have a few 100, cues in it 500, maybe more, that's a lot, for one show alone, to be registering yourself. And then to think you start multiplying that by, you know, 15 - 20 shows a year. That's a lot of administration, and some of them are larger as well, some of them are 10 part series. So then you're going to talk about, yes, repeated pieces within the series. So yes, it might only be 800 pieces of music, but then they're all repeated, so then the cue sheets are enormously long, that's really hard for one person, or even you know, you and an assistant to do so, in that sense, the administration team within a publishing company is so great, they take all of that workload off. And I think that's probably what my publisher, Matt, you know, was able to convince me of was, I can take that load off you. And this is why you give them a cut as well of your publishing is so that they're taking the load off you. They're getting all of that work done, you can focus on the music, and also they're finding all of this this money in different territories in the world that you wouldn't be able to track otherwise. So that's how do you know, if a publisher is right for you? I think you just have to go by gut feeling. Depending where you are in your career, I think is a really important part. If you're early in your career, you certainly don't need one, if you've also just got maybe one or two shows that you regularly work on. So say if you've got one big reality show like The Bachelor, and I don't know Love Island, then I don't think you need a publisher. That's again, publishers won't like me saying that. But I think that's I think it's really easy for you to track. That's what I think. But if you've got a lot of stuff, a lot of work out there, then definitely.
Chelsea: So Prime record production music is based between Australia and the States. Can you tell us about the music industry and the film industry in LA versus Sydney? What's it like going between those two spaces?
Amara: Yeah, it's different. It's the same, but it's different. I know that's such a crazy answer. But the same in the sense that, you know, a production is a production its, you know, there's a beginning, middle and end, and there are directors and there are producers, and there's all exactly the same stuff that's involved in the production is the same wherever you go in the world. I think the biggest difference, though, is probably the mindset. I find that and this is not an one's negative than the other. Really, it's more, we both have a different understanding, or we're both in different places. Australia is in a different place than where LA is. I mean, LA has Hollywood. So I think we have to sort of consider that for a start. So they're dealing with bigger budgets, they're dealing with bigger celebrities. There's a lot more at stake. They're reaching a big global market. Australia - I know we're always talking about reaching, you know, having a global market or making sure that our film and our music is reaching a global scale. In some ways, I wonder, I'm always asking these questions to myself, I'm always wondering, why why is it why are we not necessarily, you know, out there, reaching the same sort of capacity as LA. And I think it has to do obviously with the size of the productions over there, and the market. But I'm wondering if it's the stories, that's, that's probably something that I do notice is that the stories that we have here are a lot more Australian focused. And in LA, there tends to be a little bit more of a global focus. So you're reaching this sort of global market, as opposed to, I think we're so focused on us as a culture, in some ways that were almost getting in the way of ourselves with anything creative, whether it be you know, music, or film, and then the two entwined. We can sometimes be focused on so much cultural stuff, you know, getting all of our culture in there are the vernacular and slang and these these aspects which on one hand, could be enticing to the, to the world. But then on another aspect, it could be jarring to the world. And it's finding that balance, what I find in LA is that they're always the conversations you have are always about, how can we make this international, and I've even had that in a meeting, a couple of meetings, they've said, we want an international sound, with the music. I think it's really interesting. We've never, I've never come across that in Australia with productions a lot of the time, it's we want that really rural Aussie sound, we really want to encapsulate this, you know, it's set out in Australia, in the outback, you know, everything set out in the outback, or everything's, you know, we're really, so focused on trying to get the world and rightly so, you know, we have a wonderful country. But we're so focused on all of these aspects of Australia that sometimes it can feel a bit limited, then when it comes to then writing the music, and then other creative aspects, I'm sure as well, because you're very focused on having to encapsulate that Australian sound, that Australian image that feel, that tone, there has to always have, what is it that sounds Australia, what is it that sounds, we're always so focused on that conversation. And, again, this isn't a bad thing, it's just an observation. Whereas I've noticed in LA, there's a lot more conversations about, we don't want anything that is going to draw the audience out of the story in terms of making it sound too, too much like a place. It's more about just the character. And and I know this could be disputed, you know, someone else could come in and say, well, what if the character is Australian? What if the character has definitely elements in there, but on a larger conversation, on a sort of higher level higher conversation, they're always very focused on not alienating audiences in the world. They're not saying, well, where's that American sound? Nobody's ever said that, to me, we really need an American sound. It's just, it's very different. I've noticed.
Chelsea: what have the last couple of years been like for you juggling an international career and multiple time zones dealing with the difficulties with travel and multiple lock downs?
Amara: It's been, look workwise, it's been fine. Actually, I know, a lot of people have had difficulties. And I know that the film industry, you know, completely shut down. I think where I was in everything. I was on a couple of projects that had already filmed, they had already finished and they were in post. And I think I just, you know, just by grace, I was in that sort of sweet spot where things had wrapped. And there were a few other little bits and pieces, like interviews that had to be, you know, filmed was one of the projects I was working on. And that was a little bit difficult for them. But for me, personally, with the writing the music part, that was really easy for me. And then of course, we've got, you know, zooming and conference calls and everything that I mean technology and in many ways saved us, you know, if we were to go through a pandemic, this was the time to do it, because we have all of this ability to do things remotely. And of course, you know, sending music, I mean, imagine if this pandemic happened during the 80s, where you had to send a cassette tape, you know, actually, no, that wouldn't matter a pandemic or not, it just took a long time. Sorry, I just heard what I said then cassette tape in the mail, you know, it's gonna take you two weeks to get to LA and for them to listen to it and then make notes and then hop on the phone and discuss things. So yes, we would have managed in a pandemic fine in the 80s in that sense, but the whole world was slow then. But in many ways, nothing really was delayed for me personally. But I do know that the industry was obviously hugely affected. I think actually, it was after the pandemic, where I sort of probably noticed a little bit of a slowdown after the pandemic, maybe it was the fact that waiting on productions, new things to film, I don't know. But that's where I sort of noticed there was a little bit of a lull was kind of, at the end of last year, when we were kind of coming towards the end of things, but during it that peak of the pandemic, I was really busy at work, and on a lot of calls and, you know, with LA and that was look no different to pre pandemic, obviously, you can't travel and I wasn't travelling to LA.
Chelsea: So I have to ask, I read that you worked with Reese Witherspoon's company. Hello, sunshine. What was this experience like for you?
Amara: yeah Reese is lovely, we’re best friends. And, you know, we're going to catch up for lunch after this. No, (laughs) I could tell you, were thinking I’m not sure if she’s joking. I can 100% guarantee that Reese does not know who I am. But you know, her company is enormous. As you know, people might be aware, it's it was acquired by another major company for 900 million.
Chelsea: Hey that could be primerchord production music in a few years
Amara: it could be it Absolutely. You know, I hope so. And yeah, so I guarantee that Reese Witherspoon has no idea who I am. But I hope she does one day. And I hope she knows how grateful I am. You know, for anyone, woman, or man, it doesn't matter for anyone to start a company and be an entrepreneur, you know, an artist, as you said, before, Chelsea artists are entrepreneurs, and, you know, to sort of on any scale, to just be an entrepreneur and put something together, where you're actually giving people opportunities to work in the industry, I think is huge. So you know, on a small scale, if you are, you know, a singer or songwriter, or composer, and you have an assistant and you're giving them work, that is an opportunity that you're you know, creating because of the work you're doing, you're able to employ someone else and perhaps mentor them into the industry. I look at what's happened with primerchord, you know, were fortunately able to give so many composers opportunities to have their music placed in TV shows. And then I look at someone like Reese Witherspoon. And I think, again, she has created these opportunities for so many people. She's, you know, created a space for female led stories, I think that's been her huge driving force behind the company. And then also, with the people that she employs, as well, she does employ, there's a wonderful balance anyway, between the genders. And you know, the whole back end of the company is just, you know, run by women, you know, Vice President of this, and the executive producer here, and the head of this and head of that, you know, they're all just, you know, women just going to work getting stories made. So, I think, yes, obviously, writing the music, and, you know, having them as a client was incredible, is incredible. But the other thing that that comes, it's twofold, because the other thing that comes with that is then working for a company that you're actually inspired by, and you know, everything that they do. So I think that's been the other part, come to the table without I think, well, that's, you know, something that's not even about the music that we've been writing and the and the you know, the day to day production, that's something else. That's sort of the next level inspiration of, well, you know, this, this company is really doing some good things. And you know, hopefully, I can follow in those footsteps.
Chelsea: The film industry has done some excellent work in terms of gender diversity over the last few years, particularly post the hashtag metoo movement. There's been some great conversations around making film a safer and more equitable workplace, but there's still a long way to go. Have you had any times where you feel that you've been treated differently as a female in this space?
Amara: You know, I'm fortunate, I think, and probably, look, I hope I'm not one of the few I hope I'm not saying that I'm one of the few that I haven't actually felt any case where being a woman has ever affected me in this industry in any particular way. I again, I do hear stories about women saying that I just can't break the glass ceiling or you know, there are so many men, especially in the sort of corporate side of things, you know, running the show, I should say, probably running the show, or the composer's, I think I hear so many women say there are so many men in the industry, you know, composing and that is true, that is a fact it is absolutely 100% true that I don't know what the stats are right now, but there are a lot more the ratio of men to women composing music is, is huge. But have I found it difficult? Or has, you know, being a woman has that sort of kind of gotten in my way? Or have I felt like I've been treated differently in any capacity? No, but like, honestly, not at all. I've been given, I feel like I've been given every opportunity that any man has, I feel like, men and women alike have always given me time. And they've always, I mean, if somebody's not going to give you time, you know, for a meeting, or just listen to you, or, you know, talk to you, or it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a man or a woman, in that sense, they're just not going to do it. But you know, with the times where I've been heard and been given opportunities, I haven't actually, I wish I could sort of deliver more to this
Chelsea: no I'm glad! I’m glad you don’t have horror stories to share!
Amara: It is a good, it is a good change. One thing that I probably have a conversation with a lot of the time with women, especially young women that are such an interesting, you know, when you've got an 18 year old, and this is something, you know, I really urge the 15 year old 16 17, 18, you know, early 20s, when we've created in some ways, this industry where they're young, and assuming that they're going into a world and it's so important, I know, to be aware of what you're going into. But then also, they haven't had any experience, you know, with any sort of discrimination. But we've created this scenario, that young people are going to assume that they're walking into a world of sexism, and harassment, and that they have to be on their guard. And I think it's so important, they do need to be on their guard. But anyone of any gender at any time should always be on their guard or you know, should always just be sensible, and should always be, you know, mindful of things and mindful of their self worth and their value themselves and their respect and dignity and these sort of things. But, you know, I also want to sort of point out that, I think, where there's sometimes is an imbalance that I felt it can be that something may be innate, and get this could become controversial. So I'm really careful with how I put this. But something that's innate in women and something that's innate in men, I feel that men, perhaps innately are able to step up, step forward into things a little easier than women are, we have a lot of impostor syndrome and self doubt. And we maybe calculate a lot of things and a lot of reasons why we shouldn't do something, whereas men will step forward, and not necessarily and again, I do apologise for any of the men out there that think well, no, I have impostor syndrome and self doubt, of course, we all do, we're human, I get that. But there is some sort of like, innate difference between us inherent difference between men and women. And what goes on there. You know, the book Men are from women are from Venus, men are from Mars, is that what the book was? I don't know, I've never read it. But it is true. We are different creatures. And so there is something about when men step forward, the odds are going to be in your favour. If you step forward, there's you've already increased your chances of getting ahead in the industry just by stepping forward, because no one is going to discover you if you sit back. And I suppose that's kind of what I've done is I've done you know, women will say, Well, how did you get the connections? Or how did you get into the industry? Or how did you how did how will the ways that the people know you and because I got on a plane, and I went to LA, this is just you know, for an example, I took the club sandwich at lunch, I had the ice teas, I had the you know, conversations. I you know, had the dinners, did the handshakes. I kept in touch, I asked a lot of questions. And I would ask and I would ask and ask and ask and ask and, and not just necessarily for work, but you know, ask for advice, ask for guidance, ask for help. And these people, I like to give credit to the human race that we just want to help people. And if you ask often, people will help you. If you ask and you, you know you you're also mindful of situations and you don't put yourself in a situation where you potentially might be and I'm not trying to say that it's always our responsibility to be on guard. Yes, of course, you know, when sexual harassment cases gonna come up it's of course the other person's party, you know, but you're always gonna get the other person is also 100% responsible, you know, for their actions, but the way I've sort of seen things is that, that you're always gonna get untoward people in the world in any case, and either you can become a victim of it, or you can just be incredibly mindful of a situation and you know, really go with your gut, and really owning your power, and owning your power as, as a person, not just as a woman, but as a person, you know, I would expect that the same thing would go for a man, you know, that you wouldn't, you wouldn't put yourself into a position that you didn't feel comfortable with. And of course, there are situations we go into sometimes, and we have no idea that the outcome is going to be you know, as a horrendous things have happened to some women in the industry and, and not just in sexual harassment, you know, I realise it's in other areas, too, it's in, you know, bullying, just workplace bullying, or, you know, just being undermined or being belittled, you know, these sorts of things as well, it's all harassment, but being incredibly strong in your convictions, and you know, self-respect that you as much as possible, don't put yourself in those situations in the first place, then I think that also ties around to them, stepping forward, in the safe situations where possible, stepping up for an opportunity, asking for help, as I said, asking for guidance, then nurturing those relationships. And I think that's what I've I know, I've gone on a little bit of a tangent there. And I hope some of that has made sense. But that's the long way around me saying that I haven't actually had any, any issues. And I have spoken to so many people that have said that they have, and they find that the industry, there's always the question, why are there so few female composers in the industry? And my theory is that I don't think anyone means to sort of put more men forward on projects. It's not that it's just that maybe there are more men that are stepping forward for the projects, I don't know. Maybe there's a way that we can, as women step forward more and feel really comfortable and put ourselves into those situations, to pitch for things. I mean, my company, as I said, I've got 2020 composers, 11 of them are women. So for me, I think what what lack of diversity, you know, it's, and they’ve all stepped forward? And I don't know, again, if they've stepped forward to ask because they say it's female lead, maybe it is that, and that then worries me that women maybe are not stepping forward when it's male lead? I don't know. That's another sort of interesting question. Maybe we feel comfortable with one of our own? I'm not sure.
Chelsea: I definitely think that representation plays a part of it. I'm not sure if it's you know, I would definitely argue that it's more of a socialized thing than a biological thing. You know, if you have only ever seen male figures in certain spaces, it's very easy to think that's not a space for me, if I'm gender nonconforming, or if I'm a female, I don't see myself in those spaces. And I think that representation is really important in that way. And the statistics are pretty brutal. I think with APRA AMCOS statistics, it's only 20% of songwriter members are female. What's more disturbing is their annual royalties, I think only 10 to 15% of their royalty payments per year are going to female composers. And that's worrying too, but I think there's heaps of fantastic female composers and songwriters, it's also about how they get their music out there and if you have all male, you know, A&R reps at labels making those key decisions about who they sign. radio playlisters that are male who mainly lean towards putting male artists on air for example, it's harder for women to get that amount of exposure to start getting more royalties in the in the first place. So I think that's a it's a multi-layered as you said before, onion of there's no magic bullet for any of these things
Amara: Exactly. It's so true what you just said there Chelsea, about how when women just see perhaps men in these roles, or when people I should say, you know, just see men in these roles. You just assume then that this is not an area for me, you know, because, as you said, we've been socialised society has just, that's all we've known. And then maybe you're right, the more that we start to see that like with Reese Witherspoon's company, as I said, every leader, every person that I talked to there, you know, seems to be a female, you know, I’m thinking wow, like these are, this is this is a very, very balanced industry. You know, the women are calling the shots here. Not to say that they're I'm sure there are men that are calling the shots as well. But that's all I've sort of liaised with the women in charge. And so I suppose it does definitely create a sense of, well, this seems like the sort of company that I could align with because there's room for me, there's a space for me here. And maybe you're right, maybe that’s why women have come forward to my company, because they feel like there's a space here for them. As I said, Men come forward for the company too, but yeah, that's a really interesting, interesting point. I would certainly agree with you there.
Chelsea: Yeah, I think that saying “you can't be what you can't see” is quite an important phrase. But it's also about what happens when women do get into those roles. And I think it was interesting, if you read Julia Gillard’s book that she wrote with Ngozi, about women in leadership, you know, after Julia became prime minister, it didn't have a flow on effect of 1000s of women going, ‘oh! there's a female prime minister, I'm gonna go into politics’, because we saw how she was treated and women were ill, I definitely don't want to go into politics. So it's also just not there is no magic bullet here. But it's a start, it's a start. So speaking of APRA AMCOS, you recently became an ambassador? What are you hoping to come out of this partnership?
Amara: I hope that, you know, I hope that we can get more Australian music to the world. So coming off the back of what we were talking about before, about that Australian sound and everything, I'm hoping that we can get music, just just internationally sounding and international, whatever that is, and internationally played. I have had, you know, a couple of conversations with some people, they're very passionate, actually, obviously, coming from it from my point of view from the production and the composing point of view, is that getting back to production music libraries, and I said, there are some big giants out there, like Extreme music, which is owned by Sony, and Audio Network, which is a huge, huge, successful Production Music Company. But the majority of their writers in their libraries are members of PRS, BMI and ASCAP. And, you know, they're so that's UK and American writers. And what we're noticing what I'm noticing, actually on a lot of local TV shows produced here, if it's an unscripted show, the cue sheets will be filled with composers from ASCAP, PRS and BMI. And I think, but it's a really Aussie show, and it's locally produced. And that sort of doesn't make any sense to me, especially when we're talking about how we want to be an exporter of music. And we want to see those APRA royalties grow, you know, globally, as you know, internationally played artists. And I think, well, that would be a really, really great start, is if we could educate, and it's not, it's not even the TV productions fault. It's just that they don't necessarily know that there are other means of, you know, music libraries out there. You know, there's obviously there's my production library, Primerchord, there's also some other Australian based production libraries as well. And they are, the majority of the time, it's not that we don't have international composers we do we have, you know, UK, and American composers in our library as well. But the majority of our composers are Australian. And if we could get more of those composers into production, if we could get the TV production companies, the editors to be using more of the locally based production music libraries, then we could start seeing those changes happen, and having those, you know, cue sheets filled with APRA members, and then those productions being aired around the world. So that's probably something that I'm incredibly passionate about doing is making sure that we're starting to, you know, really, you know, I suppose people say, you know, buy homegrown, you know, start here first, and yeah, hopefully, I can do some great work with APRA. And that you'll hear more from this space about that.
Chelsea: I've got one last question for you, which is, what do you still want to achieve?
Amara: Oh, I think Hollywood, Hollywood is I know, it's just there are two things. So I want to grow this library, grow Primerchord so that it is a competitor with Audio Network and extreme music and yes, that's right Audio Network and Extreme I am coming for you. So, you know, grow it. I see those companies, you know, as an inspiration, and so I would love to, you know, the thing I didn't realise when I started this library journey was how great it would feel to be able to give composers an opportunity to have their music placed on TV, to be that conduit between, you know musician, and the music they make, and it being on TV and to be able to say, I love your music. Let me place it here. And I think that's something I didn't even realise how good that would feel that feels as good as when you hear your own music on a TV show, just to hear one of your other composers, you know, or an artist. And you get to say to them, oh, my gosh, your music, it's being placed in this TV show. Like, that's such a good feeling. So that's why, you know, I'm really passionate about growing this and, you know, growing the team. And then the other thing on a personal level is writing for Hollywood films. You know, that's, that's just it or TV shows, writing for you know, Reese Witherspoon's next, you know, scripted, you know, film or or TV series, you know, that is that is the dream or a Bond movie or, you know, something like that.
Chelsea: That'd be fun. That'd be so fun.
Amara: yeah, they're my two things on a professional level that I would love to achieve.
Chelsea: Love it. Amara, thank you so much for joining me on the control podcast.
Amara: Thank you so much for having me Chelsea.
