Mo ‘Ju

Produced by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT:

CW: Welcome to Control the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring game changers and change makers in the music industry. Chelsea Wilson here, your host , Since we wrapped our last season, I had my second baby Arthur, released the Women of Soul album and have been busy writing my next solo record, but I’ve also had some amazing conversations with some pioneers in the industry that I can’t wait to share with you so I’m thrilled to be back in Control for season three.

Guests coming up include Susan Cotchin, managing director of Neighbouring Rights organisation Good Neighbour - Susan is leading the charge for Australian musicians to receive fair royalties via advocacy group Genuine Article and talks to us about her career and her joint venture with Mushroom. We also speak to COO of ARIA and PPCA Lynne Small who takes us through how the ARIA charts work and the petition to change radio caps which would generate higher airplay royalties We also speak to Senior Exevutive Beth Appleton about the Fix the mixx report which examines female and NB pariocation in tech roles acros sthe biggest songs on streaming platforms. Plus we chat to Xylo Aria, founde rof Music Production for Women and artist manager Jess Keely who has managed artists such as Lykke Li and Shania Twain.

In this first episode though we speak to iconic Australian songwriter and performer Mo’ju. Since launching their solo career, they have released four albums, performed at SXSW, the SummerStage in Central Park New York and recently worked with the Sydmey and Melbourne symphony orchestras on a show of their original compositions. They have toured with artists such as Tony Joe White, Rufus Wainwright and Aloe Blacc and collaborated with Joelisitic, AB Original, Emma Donovan and more.

Recorded just as their new album Oro Plata Mata was about to land, we spoke about the concept behind the record, their thoughts on authenticity and how they feel about their award winning song ‘native tongue’. This is Mo’Ju In Control.

CW: Hi, Moju. It's so nice to see you. It's been a while. How are you?

MJ: I'm very well, thank you. It's really nice to see you. 

CW: Firstly, I'd love to say a huge congratulations on your new record, Oro Plata Mata. The album pays tribute to your uncle and follows a three chapter structure similar to the 1982 historical war film that he directed. Can you tell us about developing the record and creating the songs? 

MJ: Yeah, my Tito Peke, who passed away in 2020. Oro Plata Mata was the name of probably one of his most well known films. I wanted to pay homage to him, but I didn't want to tell that story because I think that story could only be told like in the context of how, how can I put it?

It's like, that's a specific story that he, that he could tell, um, you know, and there's a, there's a lot of layered meaning in that film. And it was about a time and a place that I didn't witness myself. So, you know, I can't really speak to that. I wanted to tell my own story and a story about where, you know, the world that I'm living in and, and the context of like, well, the backdrop of me writing this album was a global pandemic. And, um, you know, I started writing it and there were bushfires still kind of happening. There was a lot going on in the world and I think there was a lot that I wanted to kind of digest, but I also wanted to kind of, um, reference that film in a way as a little. Yeah. Tribute to Tito Peke.

But what I did find was very interesting was the kind of way that he structured that film and, and the more I kind of, you know, I went back and I rewatched it and I, and I started to think about. the creative process of making something of that kind of scale. Well it's interesting because Oroplata Mata is also a reference to a Filipino superstition and so that kind of played into it as well and I really liked the way he kind of utilized that.

In his telling of that story. So it's quite involved and complicated kind of to explain, but it's probably like the most conceptual album that I've made, there was a lot of time to think and, and really go deep on it. But the album is set in three parts, just as the film is. The superstition of Oro Plata Mata is kind of, it's an architectural superstition and it and I guess kind of suggests that you can't really, you can't, or you shouldn't build things in multiples of three. Oro meaning gold, plata meaning silver, mata meaning death. You can't land on mata. So when you say, for example, you're building a staircase, you have to count the stairs, oro, plata, mata. So the intention here is that you either have to listen to the album on repeat.

It's sort of, I'm finding it really hard to talk about, um, because I don't want to inform too much the way that people interpret this themselves, you know, you know, I know, I know the things that I wanted to talk about and the things that I was sort of suggesting through it. And, you know, the first part of the album, Oro is meaning gold is all about wealth and consumerism and.

Our kind of aspirations to these things, you know, and then plata for me is kind of more about the things that probably tarnish a little easier, but require more care, real value, such as family and spirituality and the ancestral knowledge. And kind of reconnecting with all of that. And then Mata, for me, is a reflection on all kind of my fears and the eco anxiety and the kind of existential dread of where are we, what, what is this trajectory that we're on?

You know, it's kind of like me grappling with my own relationship to capitalism and this kind of idea that Well, you know, on one hand, I feel like a victim of it and I'm stuck in it and I, and I don't know how to exist outside of that. And then on the other hand, I'm totally complicit in it. And, you know, I, you know, drive around the car and I use an iPhone and I, you know, I'm participating in it every day.

Um, so, you know, what are the ethics of that and, and how do I, and it's not didactic in any way. It's really, it's my, it's, it's a reflection on my own personal kind of struggle within that. 

CW: But it's very relatable as well. A lot of the lyrics, there's lyrics in there that are. You know, sung or spoken to a younger person, you know, or a child and, you know, how you feel about the future and how you want them to feel about the future and, you know, I totally resonated with that. Some of the themes in the Oro section with gold and money, you know, and speaking about being here, it felt, it had a very Australian feel to it as well. And our cultural responsibility and our ethical responsibility of where we are now. So, you know, there's just some incredible themes. And I really hope that in the hard copy, uh, version of this record, there's going to be lyrics because I really wanted to read the lyrics as I was listening to it. So speaking of a hardcopy version, with the three chapters, if you're putting this on an LP, how is that going to work? Because I, you know, for me, I sort of went, well, Oro is our A side, then we've got Plat is our B side. If Mata the C, what goes on D? Maybe some remixes?

MJ: Hey, I, I would love to do that and, and, and, and. Drop the extended version at some point in time. Uh, for now they're just, you know, I think they're like evenly dispersed across the record. But there will, you know, there'll be lyrics. I'm a big liner nerd. And that's why I love making vinyl, you know, it's like want that large scale kind of artwork.

And I always wanna read all the lyrics. I wanna know who played what on the record. I dig deep and see Me too. You know, who, who got involved. And there were a lot of people involved. You know, I couldn't do something like this all on my own. Um, so of course, It'll all be there. You can, you can read along.

CW: There are some wonderful artists on this album, including producer Henry Jenkins, Lewis Coleman, Milan Ring. You've got vocals from Ngaiire, which sound exquisite. Can you tell us what you think makes a great collaboration and how you approach putting it together from a curation point of view? 

MJ: Yeah. Look, I've done a lot of collaborating.

Um, for me, where I'm at right now, it really has to be an alignment of values. And. As, as much as it is like aesthetic or kind of, you know, and even more so that's more important to me than aesthetic choices in a way, you know, I've been making music with Henry and Lewis for around seven or eight years.

And this is the first time we've done a full length record where. Kind of Henry's produced the whole thing really and then Lewis came on as a co producer and Milan as well. And it's like, okay, like we all have kind of musical influences and particular tastes that are that align, but then there's a lot that everyone brings like from their own.

Kind of individual backgrounds that is completely new and foreign to the others. So that, that kind of, it keeps that exciting in a way. And well, that you've got different perspectives on things. We're not always in agreeance over everything, but I like that because it challenges me or it brings something to the table that I wouldn't necessarily have thought of.

Um, but really it was more, it's more about like, do you enjoy one on this company? Like that is, to me, that is like. ultimately everything. I don't want to work with, you know, people that aren't on the same page as you and everyone who has contributed to this record, I would consider a dear friend. So that the most important part for me, particularly making something that's like so personal.

And I think really vulnerable. 

CW: Yeah, that's right. You've got to feel comfortable to open yourself up to be your authentic self in that moment and be true to the songs and get out a great performance that is going to resonate with people. It's hard to do that if you feel that you've got to perform or be someone else in some kind of way, you might as well be recording a jingle for McDonald's or something.

MJ: I've definitely been in situations where you want to collaborate with someone and it just seems hard to get it going. Then it's like, this isn't the right thing when it falls into place and it all lines up. Then I feel like that's kind of, that's the universe going you're on the right track. I don't know.

I've worked with plenty of producers who had, you know, or, or collaborators, bandmates, whatever, who I consider friends, but it's. It's not always come easily. So like any relationship, like, you know, they all take work and stuff, but it's, you know, if it feels right and if it doesn't. Yeah. There's a bit of magic involved in it really to get that kind of, you know, symbiosis to have that artistic click with someone.

CW: It's actually really rare and quite precious to actually make something really good with someone else. And speaking about making something amazing, I'd love to talk about the visuals. You've always collaborated on your visuals as well, and your artwork and photography over your back catalogue and your promotional pictures has always been incredible. But this Oro Plata Mata is just stunning. It's so beautiful to kind of. Try and describe it for our listeners. It's like your face on a profile with these kind of aviator glasses. And it's sort of like you're lifting out of this golden sumptuous pool, which is kind of like giving me Tina arena in deep vibes, but from the side, like the water kind of is like that, but it's totally different, but how did that artwork come about?

MJ: I will say this. I feel more than ever that I am in the right place because. I finally feel that I'm, that I trust my own creative instincts, you know, and I trust myself as an artist. And I think in the past, like when I was younger, um, and I often worked with people who undermined my creative vision or allowed me to undermine myself and like, kind of, you know, really have a voice in that space.

And so, I think I've just really grown into that place now and I'm working with people who genuinely feel like my peers and there's all this like a lot of mutual respect. you know, everyone has a role and everyone has a voice and it's, and it's really positive. And that extends to my relationship with Wilk, who I've collaborated with on all the visuals for this record.

And,  um, you know, we've been making music videos together, we're making this artwork, and I really wanted to do something that had a very kind of surreal feeling. And, and, and also that tropical feeling, you know, it was like, okay, there is this deep connection and, you know, in, it's an homage to my Tito Peke, but also like the place where my father grew up, you know, and that kind of wanted a reference to those kind of landscapes and that feeling.

So there is like a, an indirect sort of reference to chapters. Yep. That kind of, so I, in a way, I kind of wanted my head to feel like an island being in kind of water and, and I guess, you know, gold being one of the kind of motif in the record. That made a lot of sense. Like, but if you, if you look at the image, you can sort of notice that there's no horizon does give you that kind of, it's like an infinite or like really expansive, you know, where, where is the beginning and the end.

And I think that that is something that kind of is also a theme. In the record is that that, you know, it's, it's part of a cycle, um, that's playing out and you want to break that cycle or you kind of want to change it and that, that sort of idea running through the narrative of the record. So. I kind of wanted that, you know, that same sort of feeling in the image of just like, where's the beginning?

Where's the end? What am I looking at here? And how do I understand this? And, and it feels big and overwhelmed. 

CW: My only criticism of this album. Is that I wanted to hear more. I just wanted more. Swan's song's amazing. And then, oh, it's finished. Um, is there going to be a follow up? Can you do a sequel? Is this renaissance?

MJ: Maybe, maybe. I feel like I'm pretty creatively turned on right now. Um, just where I'm at in my life. And I just, I don't know. I think I'm.

I mean, every artist probably says this every time they release a record, but it's like, I reckon this is the best thing I've done. And I don't have any, you know, I don't feel shy about saying that. We worked really hard on this. And, um, I really love this record. I'm really proud of it. And I don't know. I think there's something good about keeping it short, keeping people wanting more.

It's also that perfect length, I think, for getting in your car and driving somewhere. Being a city dweller. 

CW: Confidence is something that we've talked a lot about on the Control podcast and your press release for this record says, there's a quote from you saying, I'm more confident as an artist than I have ever been.

Can you tell us about that? How has your confidence evolved? And why do you think it's evolved? 

MJ: Because I'm still here. Like, you know, it's like, um, it hasn't been easy. And I feel like almost every door I've walked through in this industry, I've had to keep down, if not build the doorway myself, you know, that's the reality of, and it's changing, it's changing, but I'm also Aging.

I don't know. I've worked, I, like I said before, you know, I've worked with a lot of people who there's, there's been a lot of times when. I've collaborated with people who maybe underestimated my ability. The more confident I have gotten along the way because I've, because I've looked back and gone, I was right about that.

Or I really, really wish that I had said what I thought. Thought in that room at that time, or a really, really, you know, maybe I stopped caring. Maybe I stopped caring a little bit about how things were going to be perceived or, you know, whether it was going to be someone else's idea of what is successful.

And I think it's like, put all of that aside. And all of a sudden it's just like, I have boundless kind of creativity. Within me. And I really, really think that when I have followed my creative intuition and I've listened to. My own instincts about what to do creatively, whether that is writing music or in creating the visual elements or, you know, um, in business.

It's like my instincts have never betrayed me. It's only when I've betrayed myself in not listening to those instincts that I have been disappointed. And so I can't have reached that point where it's like, the thing is like. Even if my creative instinct is, and that's not to say that I don't listen to other people in collaboration, but it's like the instinct about whether that's the right person to collaborate with, you know what I mean?

And that you know that you're being heard and you're being respected in that space and that, you know, it's your, this is the thing, it's my project at the end of the day with my name on it. So I have to be able to sign off on that. And, you know, if it's someone else's project and someone else's name on it, and I am...

Being asked to come into that room and, you know, collaborate, then of course they have the final say and I, and I really, you know, you understand your place in that, but like when it's your own project, like you have to be able to back that a hundred percent of the way, otherwise you, you know, you're always going to ask what if, so I don't know, I think it's just through experience, I've just gone, I trust myself and, um, I'm gonna, Do things my way whether or not because I feel it this album is like a huge creative risk As well, it's not an obvious choice.

It's not the obvious kind of evolution. It's not necessarily going to be, I don't know, like, I have no idea how it will be received into the world, but I am like, I don't anticipate that it's like necessarily like a, um, easily definable thing. And I really feel like the way that the industry around music works is they really like to box things in and put them into categories and everything I've ever done as an artist has been an attempt to kind of break out out of those boxes and out of those categories and just come constantly challenging them maybe it's really on brand for me but it still feels like uh maybe a little bit more I am I'm going down this path of kind of

That's being true to you, the you of now. 

CW: So you talked a little bit there about, you know, having to break through those different walls and the, you know, different barriers we face in the music industry and something that's really challenging for a lot of artists is having to process and deal with criticism, either constructive criticism or not so constructive criticism from media, fans, industry people. How do you deal with criticism and how have you overcome that over the years? 

MJ: Uh, I've stopped reading my own press. You know, it's like their opinions, there's opinions. It's all very subjective. If everybody loves what you're doing, then like, I would rather people hate it than be indifferent to it, I guess is what I'm saying.

I don't want people to be indifferent to my work. I think I would rather receive criticism along with praise, you know, because there's always both in what you're doing. And it's like, I'd rather receive that than like, yeah, it's fine. It's okay. It's nice. Yeah, I don't want to be nice. I don't want to be nice.

Like, I don't think a lot of what I have to say is nice necessarily. It's like, you know, it's just real. I also, I'm not out to like, you know, I'm not trying to be provocative in, for the sake of it. But it is, uh, I guess this is truthful from my perspective, and that is also subjective. 

CW: That's what I love about music though, in songwriting you can just be completely biased. It's not two sides of the story, it's your side of the story. And there's no room for another opinion or counter view to enter that. I can write my lyrics and it can just be a whole soapbox rant if I want it to be. Yeah. And too bad. If you don't agree with it. 

MJ: And like I said before, too, it's like, I'm not trying to be didactic, I don't want to alienate people from hearing this because I think, I don't know, like I'm hoping that people connect with what I have to say.

And that maybe it's part of a conversation, like a useful part of a conversation. And it's just like a record, you know. Of a time and a place, because that's, I feel like that's a huge part of our job as songwriters is to participate in like oral tradition. You know, you're, you're kind of telling the story of here and now.

CW: Yeah. I mean, Nina Simone said that was an artist's responsibility, right, to reflect the times that they're in. 

MJ: 100%. Yeah, I definitely believe that. But you know, everyone's reality is really different. Which we really saw during the pandemic. Yeah, exactly. And so I don't know, like, yeah, sure. Sometimes some days when you're feeling vulnerable or fragile, like, you know, and you open your Instagram or whatever, you open your social media and there's people in your DMs telling you, you know, All sorts of horrible things.

It's like, yeah, that, that can be really taxing and draining on your mental health, but it hasn't stopped me from wanting to continue doing what I'm doing. It's really easy to get lost in that if you start focusing on it too much. I think for me, it's really about having boundaries. Whether that be with social media or, or the other media, it's like just having boundaries around what you consume and when and whether or not that's helpful.

CW: I'd love to chat about your song Native Tongue. I feel like this was a real moment in your career so far and in your creative output. I remember I booked you for a show opening for Paul Grabowski Invincible where you premiered. The new single native tongue. And you said to me, I'm going to do my new song tonight.And I was like, Ooh, exciting. And it was just you playing solo and you had, you know, a pedal and some, some backing. And I think everyone in that entire theater had chills. Like everyone in the, the mood just shifted and people felt really moved. And I've got goosebumps just thinking about it. And. I think we all knew we just heard something really special. And then I was so thrilled to see the film clip and that it got, you know, some, some traction that it deserved. When you think about that song now, what do you think of? 

MJ: Oh, look for me, that song. It was so personal and I had no idea how politicized that would become. And I've made peace with the fact that that song, now that it's out in the world, it doesn't really belong to just me anymore.

Like the meaning that it had to me when I wrote it has changed. It's become about something else and a bigger conversation. Like that was a deeply intimate thing. For me to talk about. In a song, and I nearly didn't release it. Like it was very much buried in my voice memos. And it was Joelistics who we had done a session and I'd walked out into the car park and I was getting in my car to go home and I said, Oh, I totally forgot, but I have this voice memo.

I know it's this thing that I just wrote and I sang it to him, acapella with like half in my car, half out of my car. And he went, come back inside now. And so I just got back at, I got out of my car and went back inside and we recorded that vocal. performance on a loop. I had nothing to pitch to. Um, it was just a, Joel just gave me a click essentially, just gave me a click track.

So I was in time and I just sang this song on a loop and he kind of conducted me like silently, like he was writing notes on his phone going, sing it softer, sing it louder, sing, you know, and like just holding up notes in front of my face as I was singing it and I just sang it on a loop and then he said, okay, go.

And then I left. And then when I came back, he'd written the drum beat. After that, you know, we decided, hey, let's just get in a choir, let's get in, you know, we had this whole conversation and that's when Rita got involved and did all the vocal arrangements and the Pacifica Choir came in and that felt really great, but I wanted it to be quite sparse and minimal.

It was so,  because it was so intimate, because it was something that I felt really like I felt very exposed to singer and, you know, there was a lot of things that I'd never talked about in my music. I'd never talked about in a public domain because I really, prior to this, it was very important to me that my music was valued for the merit of the work, right?

And I did not want to have this conversation. I had never even spoken about being queer. In the media or anything people will happily assume that about me, but the rest of it, you know, that, that was a conversation that I just had chosen not to have in my music. And then, I don't know, to me, that album was very much about family.

And that was a lot of what I was talking about and reflecting on, you know, losing loved ones and kind of the prospect of losing other loved ones. You know, it was like, there was a lot going on in my family life. And so. To do that and expose myself, but it felt a little bit daunting, but I did it and I'm really That's what I thought it was.

That's all I thought it was and then it became this part of this much bigger conversation that I wasn't necessarily prepared for and I was a little naive and that was In a way, I was just being asked to relive trauma On a daily basis, in contexts of conversations that I was already uncomfortable having, being put on the spot.

I don't know. It was just, it was incredibly challenging. Like, I think people don't realize that. Yeah. 

CW: Cause it's like all of a sudden you've got to be a representative for things that you didn't even want to speak about in the first place. 

MJ: Yeah. And it was like, this is really,  um, you know, people just see it as, oh, it was successful and it was, and I'm really grateful for that. But there was this other side to that whole. situation that was for a lot of pressure and not just on me, but my entire family. I was talking about things that were a direct result of trauma, colonization. And, and it's great. Like the, the overwhelming majority of the feedback has been incredibly positive, but it is that 1% that is negative. That's the stuff that stays in there, which is why, you know, it's so important to have those boundaries and to not kind of give so much credence to those kind of criticisms. But then at the same time, like, you know, there's certain criticisms that are really valuable to hear, but then at the same time, it's like, you know, you've got to take, if you're going to take the praise like you have to hear some of the criticism too but yeah you you have to be discerning with what that is and when and where and you know careful with yourself so as not to kind of further traumatize yourself i don't know it's like yeah let it consume you exactly and it's like so that song is It's, it's not really, I don't really feel ownership of that anymore.

It's really like, obviously there's a lot of people that it really resonated with and that's really beautiful and it has so much meaning to other people and it's, I don't know, like the amount of people that I hear that write to me that like are studying that song. Like cultural studies, you know what I mean?

It's like. It's become this patron tool or like, I don't know, it's become part of this greater conversation and I just have to kind of remove myself from that a little bit. So yeah, it is, it's actually a really challenging song for me to perform these days. 

CW: Yeah, I was going to ask, how does that feel performing it? Do you go back into the emotion? Can you sort of separate it a little? 

MJ: It feels like this thing that I have to step into, like every time, every time. You know, the whole set might be different and then when that song comes around, that one song comes around, I'm like, okay, this is the moment where I have to step into being a symbol of something to someone else.

You know, I understand that it's also been a gift to me because it's allowed me to continue to do what I do in, you know, my profession, like I really was at a point too, where I considered that maybe I didn't want to be in the music industry anymore. And then something like that happens. And you know, that doesn't happen every day.

It's like, okay, this song's important in some way to other people. 

CW: Yeah, you've created change. You've enabled conversations to happen that lead to change, which is ultimately what we want to be able to do is share and tell stories and share emotions and be able to create that soundtrack that allow others to be able to feel that emotion so we can make a difference or make a change.

MJ: Look, I think that I, you know, I think it's a good song and I think, I think maybe if I'd released it 12 months before or 12 months after, it might not have had the same impact. It was not in any way intentional and I had absolutely no idea. the impact that it would have, but I do feel like it was like a zeitgeist moment.

It was just that it came about right at a time when everybody else was ready to have that conversation. And I just happened to get caught in the whirlwind of that. 

CW: You're quoted as saying with your earlier work that, you know, you'd created kind of a mystery. You had a mythology, almost playing a caricature. And then with Native Tongue, it was like taking that mask off and letting the walls down. Can you talk about the evolution musically with Snake Oil Merchants, Mojo Juju to now Moju and how that journey has affected your songwriting. 

MJ: Yeah, for sure. And I love, I love that. That's such a, that's such a deep cut to go.

CW: Oh, Snake Oil Merchants. Well, that's when I first met you. 

MJ: I know, but a lot of people... First Snake Oil Merchants record, you know. I was there forgotten that, um, and I don't know, maybe not. Like, I do think there's been a lot of people as well who've been along for the ride the whole time. Um, I love that band.

It's like, you know, I've had moments of kind of looking back and cringing because it's like, you know, the fashions change or whatever. And it's just like, Oh, right. We were doing that thing. And that, that, you know, there's moments where that's felt a little baggy or whatever, but it's like, no, I reckon we were a great band and we were really kind of. Living that life, you know, that was, it was very authentic to us. We were greater than the sum of our parts in a lot of ways. Like we were just such a ragtag kind of. motley crew of punks really is what we were and we just kind of had this thing and and we were a party band we're a party band and a festival band and and kind of did that really well and that was so much fun to do that for a time and then it became really unsustainable to keep that many people like a eight piece nine piece band on the road um driving up and down the east coast for for years um kind of doing that and And then I was just, I was just writing songs and we were like really kind of exploring ideas.

Like even that, um, selling you salvation album, it was a concept album, you know, that was really about kind of, I mean, I grew up Catholic as a lot of, uh, Filipinos do, and that is, you know, there's a heavy kind of Spanish Catholic influence. that came with colonization in the Philippines. And so I grew up with that and kind of interrogating a little bit of that, I guess, like the religious iconography and the things that you have.

They're very um, kind of romantic, but also really, um, morbid and oppressive. Um, so it's like, it was an interesting kind of way to kind of, I don't know, talk about all of that. And it was a caricature of that kind of, you know, the, the snake oil kind of, well, is, to me, like, is Christianity a form of snake oil kind of, we were, we were really kind of exploring those ideas um, so, you know, I was always kind of playing around with this kind of idea of a concept record and, and how to tell stories. And so this, you know, there's always, it was a caricature and it was fun and it was like really over the top and hammy and kind of like. You know, party vibes, but there was, there was, there's still an element of truth and my own story and my own history imbued into that.

And then, you know, again, same with, um, that sort of Mojo Juju self titled record, my first solo album, a lot of those songs had been written for the Snake Oil Merchants. So there was like a bit of a hangover of that kind of flavor there, but I really kind of Uh, try to strip it back. And, you know, I was obviously listening to too much weights and, um, really kind of in that, that era, that age too, where you just sort of romanticizing like alcoholism and, you know, like just telling a kind of a noir sort of aesthetic, but completely subverted, you know, just incredibly queer.

Like if you listen to the album, it's so queer. It's done in this really, like, historically very masculine sort of Genre where that is rife with misogyny and like, so I, you know, I think maybe that's lost on people, but like, if you go back and kind of look at that, it's like that, I feel like that was really subversive.

It was, I was taking this genre that did not belong. 

CW: Yeah. You're reappropriating something that wasn't accessible or you know, it wasn't allowed. 

MJ: And it was, it didn't, it wasn't a genre that had space to center people like myself, like, you know, and listen and read Chandler or whatever. And it's like incredibly racist and misogynistic and all that. And yet there's something so poetic in the way they write, you know, it's so hard not to. want to devour the words. It's like, it's so, it's so fun to read that genre. It's so fun to, you know, read Bukowski and, you know. Raymond Chandler or, you know, listen to Tom Waits. And I love, I still love Tom Waits, but you, you know, it's like, it's, you know, historically like a really masculine kind of thing.

And I was like, no, I'm going to do this. And I'm going to talk about, you know, chasing tail and doing all the things that they do. But here I am like this really kind of unapologetically like queer, very visibly queer. But I never, ever addressed that and talk about, it was just like how. Do you interpret it?

And I don't know, maybe I should have spoken about it. I think at the time I just thought that being visible was enough. And then I realized now that you've got to participate in the conversation a little more than that. So I don't know, it's like from there I went to do seeing red, feeling blue, which was just, I have a love hate relationship with that record in that I.

Really wanted to do something that I didn't quite achieve, I think. And I had a really different agenda with that record than what ended up happening. So that one was like, it's tricky, and I feel like it's just a bit of a stepping stone. By the time Native Tongue came around, I felt a lot freer to just do what I wanted to do.

You know, we're seeing Redfring, but I had other people in my ears trying to tell me this way or that way or, you know. But with Native Tongue, I really feel like... I don't know, something changed and I matured and I was also like, again, you know, no one's going to hear this record. So I don't care. And I just did it.

And then of course I was very wrong about that. But it was when I started to, I think, follow my own nose a little, little more than I had on the last record and really went personal. I think I just kind of was like, if this is the last record I make, then I want it to be a legacy album and I want it to be for my family.

And in particular, my grandparents, whose stories, you know, I talked a lot about, or I told a lot of that story on that record. So, it was a real shift in the way that I was approaching things. I think the concept of authenticity... in music is really interesting because I don't think you can ever fully represent one's self authentically in any piece of music or an album because we're so much more complex and multi layered than 10 or 12 songs anyway.

Um, but it's really interesting when you do channel a kind of character or a vibe and then that relationship that you then have with that kind of construct. You know, David Bowie made almost every album where he was channeling. Some other kind of, um, piece that he would make. And, you know, I think it's really interesting cause I'm, I kind of, yes, I love it and I also hate it.

And I think that it is this thing like authenticity. I'm talking about, it is this thing that gets, it's like this thing that gets attached to, or women must be authentic. Or people of color must be authentic in their storytelling, but men, white men get to play characters all the time. Um, you know, it's like when you're a person of color, you're expected to be talking about, well, like identity politics when you're a woman, you know, it's feminist.

It's like, I think it just isn't something, it isn't a responsibility that gets placed on a lot of white men, I don't think. To be authentic in your art. Yeah, there's that license to play. Yeah. And I, and, you know, I think it's overrated in a way, like we need entertainers too. Music is. 

CW: Oh, absolutely. But why is Ed Sheeran in a flannelette shirt and ugly jeans more authentic than Katy Perry, who wants to dance on top of an ice cream, you know, wearing a skirt made of cherries. Like, why isn't that her authentic self anyway? Very well could be.I don't know.

MJ: Exactly. And maybe, maybe it is more so because you have, you, you've been given permission to lose your inhibitions in that space. And I really think that it is, you know, When I look back at the Snake Oil Merchants and I go, yeah, we were a party band and we were like, you know, playing characters and the same with that first album, you know, that first solo album, it's like, it's a noir thing.

And I was playing a cat, I was subverting this idea and playing the character, like playing into this character, but it doesn't make it any less authentic to me, you know, and I guess like. Just in trying to explain it to people. It's like, yes. So for the first time, I'm not like trying to kind of dress it up in a particular way.

I'm just speaking very plainly about this is, this is about my life, but that like all of that other stuff was about my life too. You know, that was all very real. It's just that, you know, that's part of the creative process. That's how I wanted to tell the story. That was the lens I wanted to tell it through. And yeah, it's an interesting conversation.

CW: Do you still have the pinstripe suits? 

MJ: Oh yeah, something like that. 

CW: The single, ‘Change has to come. It's an incredible song. Congratulations. I really love it. Super funky. Loved the film clip as well. I love that psychedelic backing vocal section. It's like a war cry to arms and the rhythm guitar parts and your vocals sound really gorgeous. And lyrically you're talking about love and elevating humanity from a, you know, a real social perspective. And given the focus for this podcast is on the music industry and arts industries, I'd love to hear what change you'd like to see in the music industry.

MJ: Um, I mean, it's where to start. Really, where to start, so that I don't get, um, blackballed. Um, I think there's a lot of things that would be really nice to see shifting in the industry from a really practical sense in terms of like, just making live music more accessible and enjoyable and safer for everyone.

Because I think that really. Has often been an afterthought and, you know, not well considered just the changing of the guard. I think there's a lot of gatekeeping in the industry and I feel like where we're at right now is in this kind of. interesting] but awkward transitional phase where there's a lot of kind of performative change or 

CW: virtually signaling,

MJ: virtually signaling. Yes. A lot of that. I'm really hoping that we shift into a space where it just feels a bit more authentic, like, you know, just natural too. It's like, this isn't, Or it shouldn't be that hard, you know? And, and I think a lot of artists who historically probably didn't, you know, like have access. who are now being kind of platformed more, which is great, but it's often a little paternalistic and, um, kind of can feel tokenistic.

I think it's a paternalizing, you know, it's like, it's still the same people and they're kind of calling the shots and kind of dictating how it goes and making all the decisions. And so it's like, You know, the same people who were kind of gatekeeping us out of the space, now trying to say, well, you can have the space and we're going to like pat ourselves on the back in the process for giving you that space.

And we're going to do it with this disclaimer of you're pretty good for a,

you know, minority. It's, it can feel condescending. And so You know, I'm really hoping that we actually just acknowledge that there's a lot of talent from a whole range of different people and that that can be celebrated for the merit of the work and judged by the same standards. 

CW: There's been a lot of conversations over the last couple of years around base wages for artists and the campaign kicked off by Musicians Australia was arguing for minimum performance fees. Which has been signed off on from multiple states around the country. We also know now post pandemic that most musicians don't have more than 10 grand in super. What are your thoughts on musicians award rates and that kind of campaign around minimum fees for live performances? 

MJ: Yeah, why not? I mean, I think that a lot of the other arts or like a lot of other in sectors of music industry are unionized and we are not. And I've always found it really problematic that artists get paid on such a wildly kind of broad sliding scale, you know, that there's always been that mentality of, of like, Oh, well, if you don't want to do it, someone else will. And, and so therefore, like, why would I pay you what you're asking? Which is entirely reasonable. I don't know. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I have no idea how that will look. I definitely don't have the answers to that, but. In a general kind of conceptual sense, I think that is perfectly reasonable and it seems kind of ridiculous that it doesn't exist already. Yeah, right? Yeah. Like, shouldn't people get remunerated for, you know, the work they do and why is that an argument in 2023?

CW: It does seem pretty wild. Something else that seems kind of wild is... It's, you know, but great that it's finally happening is, you know, the research into the Australian music industry in terms of sexual misconduct and bullying and discrimination. Uh, Support Act recently just released their new guide. Do you think we're getting somewhere with gender equity and a more even playing field?

MJ: It seems so marginal, it's like, oh, well, yeah, great, great that you're looking into sexual misconduct and bullying in the workplace, isn't that the bare fucking minimum that that should be happening? If that kind of behaviour is happening, which it's rife, we know, in our industry, it's like, isn't that the least that we should expect?

Is that that would be investigated and that people would be held to account? Yeah, so I don't, like, yeah, I think it's essential that that happens. I think it's extremely important. I think the people who have campaigned and come forward and done all the things and put themselves in challenging positions and vulnerable positions in order to kind of push that agenda forward.

It's like, it's incredibly, you know, vital, um, you know, very grateful to them for doing that. I just don't think like, you know, the industry at large should be, um, be celebrating or be proud of, Oh, we're doing this and this is progress because it's like you all are like there's a, I don't know that there are people who have enabled that.

CW: Yeah. Isn't it embarrassing that we just didn't have this in the first place. 

MJ: Yeah. Exactly. It's, it's, it's embarrassing that it, that it's taken this to get us here and that it's happening in 2023. Like I just, um, I think we're very far behind. And that's what I was saying before is like, it's, you know, the music industry has not been a safe place for a really long time. And that is one of the things that needs to change. Most of all. 

CW: I've got one more question for you. What's next? What do you still want to achieve? Musically or, or in your life? Oh God, I've got so much. I'm not that old, you know? I've got plenty, plenty to achieve yet. Um, I don't know, like, I'm just trying to take stock of where I'm at.

For the moment, I am allowing myself to sit in this moment of like, you know, doing these orchestra shows and releasing this album and being very grateful. I'm here, I'm still doing it.  I'm really proud of what we're doing and where we're at and, yeah, letting myself have that moment because I think one of the things that we do as artists and I have been guilty of my entire career is always looking sideways or looking too far ahead and never taking the moment to just be in it.

And appreciate the achievements, like all the, the moment you're in, like, I have done it. I've been guilty of it my whole career, you know, always going the next thing, though, the next thing and the next thing. And what's that person doing over there? What's that person doing? Like, how come I'm not doing that?

What's, you know, how come I don't have these opportunities? It's like, I don't know, I'm doing this. I've done a lot of really incredible things that I, you know, if I told my younger self, They probably wouldn't believe  me and they think it's nice to just let yourself be in it. 

CW: I hope you put your feet up and treat yourself and luxuriate in the moment of setting this incredible record free. Again, a huge congratulations on Oro Mata Plata. It's a beautiful record. I'm looking forward to the orchestra shows and congrats on your 10 years of being a solo recording artist. And thanks so much for joining me on Ctrl. 

MJ: Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah.