Episode 10: Helen Marcou

In this episode we speak to one of Australia’s most influential figures in music; business owner, activist and industry leader, Helen Marcou AO, co-owner of Bakehouse Studios Melbourne. In 2010 Helen co-founded SLAM (Save Australia’s Live Music), which led over 20k people down the streets of Melbourne in Australia’s largest cultural rally, creating lasting change in the music industry. In this conversation we talk about Me Too, COVID recovery and finding your networks to create change.

CREDITS: Produced and edited by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea: Helen Marcou. Thank you so much for joining me. How have you been going through physical isolation in Victoria?

Helen: Um, I think it was very well-described by Julia Robinson recently described it as social atrophy. That's what we're all feeling now, this sort of social decay.

I described my first outing recently is I felt like a naked worm that was coming out of a cocoon. As you know, Chelsea, we've just opened in Victoria and we've had pretty close to nine months of just being shut down and Bakehouse being a creative studio, a venue and event space, et cetera. we shut down very early. We had cancellations way back early in March. We were that barometer of when South by South West and then there was just this domino effect. And originally it was, there was just so much fear involved and running on adrenaline and trying to maintain as a small businessperson, particularly in the creative sector.

My role within it fell completely on all the organizational stuff. So dealing with legals, landlords, organizing job seeker, job keeper, job maker, job breaker, you know, that was my full-time role, renegotiating leases and mortgages, and dealing with mental health with staff and ourselves. And just trying to keep semblance and look, I didn't have a day off, for months and months and months, this was from the first thing in the morning to late at night, doom scrolling in the middle of the night. And then we opened as you know, we all reopened, and it was with a lot of trepidation over that period. And we saw that if someone had an elderly family member or a band member that was immunocompromised, that band were out for the whole year at Bakehouse.

And then I think we discussed this a little earlier; we felt that the virus was kind of lapping around our heels within our community and industry, as people started to get closer and closer. So the lockdown came at a good time. I think the most difficult thing for us is that our outgoings have continued. We, we rent physical space, we have leases and, and debt and mortgages. So a lot of, uh, savings or anything we had set towards the future has been has been taken up. So it hasn't allowed us a buffer, to take many hits at this point. So the big telltale for us will be next year, whether we renegotiate our rent, again, in a more realistic fashion with the new, creative economy, however that looks and moving forward with staff as well. How that will look, who will stay, who will go. I described it like musical chairs. So at the beginning of the job keeper, cause in our creative setting, most of our staff have two or three jobs and they're all artists within their own right. So they fell into certain positions where they could get job keeper whether it was with us or their university or one of our staff work for the MSO, et cetera.

So we found ourselves in this really unenviable position of having all male staff at Bakehouse for the first time in 30 years, because they're the core group that had been maintained on job keeper, but that will be, you know, of course remedied in the near future. But for myself, it was the adrenaline then led to exhaustion.

And now I'm just, I'm taking stock and just taking things really slowly because the mad rush to open two weeks ago, was the storm before the calm and then the bookings are trickling through. It's a very slow, incremental thing, which has allowed us a bit of time to just go hang on a minute. We're just not going to go crazy. We're going to just take things one step at a time because health, our own mental health and my own, you know, living on adrenaline for so long, I'd hate to have a kidney x-ray right now and see what that looks like.

Chelsea: This has been such a wild time for everybody in so many different ways. and also I think a period of deep reflection for so many people. Speaking of reflections. I'd love to reflect back on the SLAM rally. It's been over 10 years since this huge event, which you co-organized the largest cultural rally in Australia over 20,000 attendees. For listeners who might not be aware of SLAM or weren't around at the time, can you just talk us through what was happening in the lead up to that event and what kind of inspired and galvanized you?

Helen: Well, it was an election year and around elections, there was a law and order campaign running. It was the then incumbent government were a labor government who were friends of the arts and music as well,  and, they were coming up to a third term and historically in Victoria, I don't think a labor government has ever hit a fourth term. So it's a very difficult time. And there was a lot of, particularly in the Murdoch press, were brutal about alcohol fueled violence in the streets. So the then premier Brumby put out a directive to Sue McClellan, the director of liquor licensing, who are a statutory body, they're not part of government. So the directive was -  slow down the alcohol fueled violence, cut down the 3:00 AM licenses. So what she went ahead and did was use it, this sort of blunt instrument and banged it out with a blanket ruling around 3:00 AM licenses, but also any live music venues. She, they pulled out an old condition that had existed from the eighties, but had never really been enforced over the time, any live music venues that had a 3:00 AM license, we're immediately considered high risk. Now that may not sound like much, but in real terms, it meant that they had to have all this extra compliance, for example, have two bounces on before, during, and to the end of every single gig.

So if you imagine a tiny little Folk venue with a ukulele player in the corner, like the Lomond, for example, that rendered that sort of gig untenable, because it, it was, it was too expensive to pay for security. Also CCTV had to be put in, installed in every live music venue. As well as high-risk conditions meant tripling or plus of insurance and it, and we started to see this real attrition of gigs.

So over a six month period, it's been noted that 126 venues either reduced their live music program or canceled it altogether. And in effect had this opposite thing rather than curbing alcohol fueled violence, when they got rid of the live music, they were putting in badged drinking nights and happy hours and things like that.

The first venue to receive these high-risk conditions was the railway hotel in North Carlton, which is a non and poppa type of Italian eatery, where the old men play cards out the front who was still probably their grandma in the kitchen and the Brunswick blues shooters that had something like a 12 year residency, the play on the floor to, to, you know, old couples and grandchildren drinking Chardonnay. And they had the publican came out and shut it down. And that's where Anna Rourke, who was a human rights lawyer got involved and she reinvigorated ‘Fair Go For Live Music’. John Perring of The Tote and Bar Open Fame and Spanish Club at the time was the convener of that group. And they had started around March 2005 around neighborhood issues, but this was huge.

And the reason SLAM became involved as we were watching closely. We're watching ‘Fair Go’ to see if they'd had any results from government. Nothing had happened. And then the Tote shut down. And we, we didn't know Bruce Milne very well at the time, but we really admired what he had done bringing in that sort of international connection to The Tote, you know, with his connections in Japan and Chicago and the gorgeous Tiki bar upstairs and always full of young musicians. And it was the place where people began Wednesday night residencies, Saturday afternoons in the front bar. And although the Tote became the poster child, because of the movie “Persecution Blues: Battle for the Tote”, it actually wasn't the catalyst.

It was places like the Railway hotel, The Greek deli had to stop their bazookie players in the restaurant because it became untenable for them. The Cape lounge, a little jazz, residency that Andy Sugg had for years and years, he lost his gig. So it was happening in the regions. It was happening everywhere. And, um, my crazy husband got up in the middle of the night and said, we can help, you know, we should do something about this.

Realistically it was never really about live music venues, as much as the principle that the government had created this proxy, that music created violence, music equals violence. And we felt we had a moral obligation to break that proxy because it's not true and it's not real.

At the nucleus where artists losing their gigs, but the vehicle was live music venues at the time, and we had to make sure that these regulatory barriers were out of the way and the ridiculous prospect that music equaled violence had to be corrected. So we came in, we came in off the back, decided to hold a rally and brought in our close connections.

Now, after years at Bakehouse at that stage, it was 20 years. We're up to 30 years now. We knew a lot of artists and a lot of musicians. And we were just talking to people about how about we just take over the streets and make some noise and challenge the government on this.

So Quincy and I went in very naively, never worked in government, never had a liquor license as well, didn't understand the intricacies, had never run a campaign like this, had done fundraising for school and put on gigs, but never anything like this. And I think the most important thing we did was listen and listen to experts and listen to our community and not assume that we could do it ourselves or had the knowledge or authority to pull something like this off.

And listening to experts and having them surround us is what helped the success. Even though a lot of the work was strategic, from our point of view, there was a leadership role there. But it came through being informed by those around us.

And so we went to the government with demands. There was a petition, a hard copy petition at the time where we had 26,000 signatures, very different from the digital world.

These were being collected on site at the rally and at venues. And the demands, there were 10 demands and they were all signed off by 2014. And one of them was the funding of Music Victoria, which you're on the board of Chelsea, and at the time it had a steering committee and there was an appetite to start them off. But this kickstarted, the funding. And things like, of course breaking the proxy of music equaling violence, creating a help desk around live music venues, things like bringing back all ages gigs and changing the building code, just a whole raft of demands, including, uh, extra funding. And that's where Music Works kicked off, $27.5 million for Victorian artists in the music sector. And, um, that was unprecedented as well.

So a number of firsts, but we were to celebrate 10 years since we marched down Bourke street to parliament, in March this year and then pandemic hits. So our celebrations and, uh, commemorations were put on hold as we, we hit another crisis for our music community.

Chelsea: Did you think at the time that you'd get such a big turnout for the rally?

Helen: No way

Chelsea: Were you surprised?

Helen: Yeah, because we hadn't really dealt with social media before. And at the time we were lucky because the algorithms favored, whatever you put up there. And it interesting when Quincy was meeting with the government, they'd say how many people you're expecting? And he’d say I don't know, Four or 5000 thousand? I don't know how these Facebook thing works! and you could see the numbers rising, and I know the, on the event page, it got up to about 15,000 just before. And that's when the government knew we were serious, but I think they also realized we were serious when they asked who we had speaking. And I think when Quincy mentioned Paul Kelly was one of the speakers, they all put their heads in their hands and went oh no! and knew that this was, it was serious in particularly with all the media that we had. We had at one stage three full-time publicists, Ang Tenley was doing all the indie media and digital, Michelle reman was involved with the newspapers and television and Bek Duke was doing a lot of the online stuff.

And we had saturation. We just had so much press around this, this issue because it was an election year. But, um, the other thing that was interesting too, and I reflect on it now, after doing another similar campaign in new South Wales last year that don't kill live music campaign, which we used our logo, et cetera.

Is that remember we're up with the labor government against a labor government. So the, you know, the, uh, mechanisms that form the Murdoch press were of course, ready to go a labor government at any time. So you could leverage on that. Whereas it was a complete opposite thing that happened up in new South Wales, trying to get coverage around something that was going up against an LNP government during an election as well.

Chelsea: Just incredible, an incredible moment for music in Australia. And in particular, of course, here in Melbourne and the live music accord was signed on the eve of the protest. Is that right?

Helen: Look, that was just an agreement to agree. Really. I think it was more of a press moment to be quite honest.

It wasn't until 11 months later, we actually signed the live music agreement and that's where the, the real changes came into play. But then the government fell, and here we are new government and, um, we were very tricky and fortunate at the time that we had a ah, militant, uh, webmaster Barack Gradman that had put in a bit of nasty stuff about the LNP on the SLAM website the night before the election.

And we were very careful, we tried to remain nonpartisan as much as we possibly could, because it was really important that live music is community owned. It's not owned by any political party, even though many of them have tried to take it up as their cause. It's actually, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's a generational art form that we all embrace and it can't be partisan, but he kind of swept through.

And Quincy and I were away. It was our 25th wedding anniversary. We're down at the Queenscliff music festival and we had really bad reception and he put on there LN P have no live music policy vote last. So I get a phone call from Michael O'Brien at the time, who is now the leader of the opposition, uh, down in Queenscliff saying, what have you put on your website?

And I'm like, what? I don't know, what have we put? You said, vote liberal last. You need to take that down. I said, well, where's your commitment? You don't have a policy. Bang! A policy went up that night saying that they would commit to the live music round table and they would commit. There are about three things on there. The Roundtable was really important. One of them was something around Rock Eisttedfords, some funding, which was just.. interesting. But anyway, that was there. And there was something else there I can’t remember about arts funding. So Barak took these great screenshots. And when the libs got in, you know, I got straight on the phone to, um, Heidi Victoria, who became the arts minister I remember the week after, saying you've committed to this on your website and she just couldn't believe it that that had happened. So they stuck to it. And the first round table, um, with that government was with Michael O'Brien. So I’ll explain a bit about the roundtable. It was a vehicle that had the different silos of government and government agencies and music industry. And we were able to talk through these regulatory problems And that's when the agent of change came through and make really quick changes and these will be long lasting

Chelsea: So 10 years on from this, our music venues are once again, under threat and our artists have been severely impacted due to the coronavirus pandemic. What do you think the next steps are for the industry to recover and how can the public play a part?

Helen: Oh, this next steps are really complex. Because we're, we're stepping into, uncharted waters and the most overused word of the pandemic has been uncertainty, as we all know.

Um, and so I think it's really interesting looking across to those who are just that one step ahead of us, for example, New Zealand, or even look at the Northern territory they're already having, you know, huge stadium shows and things are opening up. I think we're very fortunate in Victoria that we, despite the vitriol coming in from other States and the media and the pressure we were feeling, we stuck it out as a community and we really cared about each other and that will play a big part moving forward I think we'll rebuild very quickly, but it will be different. It's going to be very hard for traditional music venues because business models will have to change. They have to change because it is no longer viable to have the kind of volume that we were looking at of audiences in small spaces that will change for a long time. And you know, looking at outdoors and looking at food and beverage and seating and these different types of experiences as well.

I've got grave concerns about models moving forward.  I feel that incumbency also brings complacency. So we're seeing one thing that I want to see change is that some venues have had all male lineups. And all that work that we did in the background for so long, has been really disappointing to see what happens because they're going with what they believe is safe and what will sell tickets.

Interesting looking at new South Wales, they put on these 1000 shows with government funding, but they were all heritage acts. They were established acts. So I have concerns about emerging artists and the role of the support act. And when we're looking at reduced times that people are doing matinees shows and lots of short runs, they're cutting out the support artist.

I'm also concerned about the cut of loss of expertise. You know, we have great promoters and booking agents and people that are support teams that create a ecosystem and how they're being cut up. And we're losing a lot of that expertise. So moving forward in a, in a time where all the money is concentrated coming from government. There's not a lot of external money coming in. There's not this, this mass entrepreneurial effort of, of risk-taking and bringing in money from other areas it's coming from government. So government have an absolute, huge responsibility to make sure that they support the ecosystem and not just parts of it through their funding.

Chelsea: In your work advocating for the music industry and, and working with politicians and public offices, it's quite challenging if they have a real lack of understanding about the music industry. How do you go about talking to government and politicians who don't really understand the music industry. How do you go about translating those needs when there is this perception about sex, drugs and rock and roll? How can we overcome that image?

Helen: well, it's really important to have a diversity of voices talking to government and sometimes, you know, they invite me into stuff because, uh, maybe they I think I cut through, I don't know what it is I'm not, I'm not a typical rocker, let's say, I think that, you know, um, being an older Greek mum might be a little bit different from what they're used to or their expectations, the stereotypical live music fan. Um, I think it's really important that the different voices are there to be heard. And that leadership has happened a lot in the broader arts community but sometimes I do worry about the loudest voices in music and the media have a role to play as to who they're taking quotes from and who they're championing - all the time they go to their trusted sources and, um, we have to make space for the reality of our industry. Because if you look at the artists that are cutting through, you know, they're not white male rockers. In fact, you know, that the women of color are owning music at the moment when it comes to the charts, women, like, you know, Sampa The Great for example, and just the fact that she's won the Australian music prize two years running.

And the travesty that her acceptance speech wasn't even televised at the Arias last year, for example. So the gatekeepers, the positions of power need to make space, but not so they're unseated. They need to collaborate and that's what will work for them in the long-term as well. Because holding on to power, um, gripping onto it with your last bit tiny bits of fingernails will not help you as an individual as well. So I'm very conscious of being a white settler and the space I take up. If I'm ever invited to join a board, for example, or to speak on a panel, I do a check and I say this -  you don't need another middle-aged white woman on here. Where's the first nation's voice first. And, you know, where's the justice. So when everyone else. so I think there's a big individual responsibility that comes in as well as collective responsibility. And this is the time if ever we've needed change. This is the time we can make change because we've been shaken up like never before.

Chelsea: And what's your advice for other women that want to see change, but they don't know about how to approach making a difference

Helen: Collectivize and seek feedback from your community. I'm the biggest doubter of myself. You know, I always have these, these fears of, uh, you know, classic imposter syndrome constantly, but it's really important to have my small groups of like-minded other women generally, um, or other groups, you know, like your gender diverse groups or people like yourself that just talk things through and get feedback from your peers and collectivize, as I said, going as a group. I'm seeing that happen a lot with various art forms as well, and a lot of groups that have sprung up and get involved. That's a really important thing. So stuff like the Australian festivals association, is really important. They've had a lot of great action, like Julia Robinson and Emily Collins got together and did that “I lost my gig”. They were quick and they acted at the start of the pandemic. This is just two women together. And they were able to gather that data. And that's being used to inform some of the policy and the funding, but the work that Julia has done in that group, and if you see other festivals joining on things like have sprung up the ALMBC, the Australian live music business council. So if you're a woman in business, in music, even as a micro-business joining, these sort of groups are really useful. But also your little Facebook groups, just those little private threads are so important. If you don't have that physical connection with, you know, family and friends and people that you can bounce off as well.

Chelsea: They often blame confidence in the music industry, as the reason for women's lack of participation. Do you think there is a concern around confidence and how do you find your confidence to, to speak out?

Helen: I'm, I probably have a weird, no filter sometimes. And it came from being a big Greek girl growing up in a big household that, we were encouraged to just be loud and speak. And I think a lot of my confidence came from, uh, building Bakehouse with Quincy was really interesting because we did that independently and we made our own rules about the environment  we wanted to be in. So it was a little bubble I must say, but we recruited who we wanted.

We had certain respectful rules. When it came to stepping out, as I became older, it was easier. It was definitely easier to speak out and speak with confidence and with experience. And as I gathered knowledge. But confidence is difficult when you have people speaking over you turning your back to you, walking up to a group of men who introduce each other and you're on the periphery. And I found that the most important thing I did was turn up, just turn up. And when I felt tired and I didn't want to, I'd been invited into certain things as I got older and had this voice and had a seat at the table and I realized if I didn't show up, there would be a typical man taking my place.

And, and that responsibility was very deep with me and it still is. And if I can't now show up to things, I try to offer a place to another woman or someone else that I'm bringing up from, uh, a socially underrepresented community. So turning up is number one, the experience, the more you do it, the more confidence you will build.

I'm very, lucky that I have a long-term working relationship with my partner of 34 years who, has been incredibly encouraging of everything I do. And believed in me and has made space for me and supports me and has never, like we argue, we question each other, but it's a very equitable relationship. And that came out of, I think the relationship I had before him and he had before me is we both realized what we didn't want in a relationship.

Um, so coming into this long-term thing, and we are rare. It's incredibly rare to have something like that -  but if you can't get that sort of equitable  support from a partner or a parent or a friend again, join groups, go out further into your community because there will be people that will hold you and prop you up and tell you that you are on the right track because we need that reinforcement. Because sometimes you just flying blind, particularly when you're breaking new ground in an advocacy or activist space.

Chelsea: I read an interview where you were talking about how in the music industry that often musicians are generating income for so many others who are providing the ancillary services. So say for example, an artist is making a record. They're paying studio hire, they're paying the producers, they're paying website designers, graphic designers, all these other people are making an income off the creativity of that artist who is likely to not receive any income at all for that project. How do you think we can go about changing this and making sure we look after artists particularly coming out of COVID.

Helen: Well, we often talk about the centrality of the artists don’t we, and, um, and when we look at the way the ecosystem works, if you remove the artist, the ecosystem will no longer exist. So somehow we need to look at equity.  and, and sometimes it's just a value proposition. It may not be money for some people, however, we all need to live and survive. So I think in everything we do, the first thing you need to do is say, who is getting paid here and who am I supporting? And again, it starts with the individual. Right up to broader organizations. If you are employing someone or contracting someone or putting someone on a lineup, do not have the expectation that people want to give their music away for free, and don't undervalue what you do. And it comes back to even the work we're doing with studios. Once we start undervaluing, what we do it sets a precedent for the rest of the industry as well.

So at Bakehouse, for example, if we take it into an abstract way away from an artist, we do a lot of location stuff because we put a lot of time and effort into the aesthetic, like above and beyond. We build these beautiful spaces ready to film and people will often question and say, well I went into the pub and didn't pay location fee.

But we have to be firm if we still charge a location fee, because that is us, um, acknowledging our value and maintaining that value. It sets a precedent for the rest of the industry and that's where artists have to recognize their own value as well. There are times when you give it away for free, you might do a benefit, but don't do too many benefits.

And that's where good management comes in. So as we start to step out on the lawyers of, of people that support artists in their, their pursuit of their art or business, they will know, and they will filter this stuff. And there'll be careful with your career to make sure that. You're not doing too many benefits, so you're not doing, you know, there has to be correct balance with everything you do.

And I'm also really concerned about, of the lot of the online content at the moment, there was a time that it was really important at the start of the pandemic. People wanted to create a lot of people wanted to get their stuff out there and have a connection with their audiences, but it's time to do content, not just for content sake.

We have to be able to monetize that and look at, you know, a good example is the digital concert series, the Melbourne digital concert series at the Athenaeum where the artists all get a really good cut of what's happening. And I think these are the um, the models that we need to be moving forward into.

And as I said, government are holding a lot of the money. They have to put it into every part of criteria, value system, acquittal, et cetera, is how we pay artists.

Chelsea: I'd really love to chat to you about your work on the Victorian sexual harassment task force. Can you tell us a little bit about what the task force uncovered?

Helen: So it was interesting at the time I was ready to step down from SLAM. I'd just, you know, my kids were needing me going through high school and I been absent for quite some time. And and there was a moment I was about to step down and I became involved with LISTEN just on the periphery. And it was when it was just a little Facebook group before it became a, you know bonafide not-for-profit running conferences and labels and all the things they do now.

And when Evelyn Morris started, it ended, the stories were very reminiscent of my own experiences growing up as a woman in, in going to gigs in the early days. And I was so deeply disappointed to know that not only that this was still going on, it was probably even getting worse or it was, it was palpable how terrible the situation was.

And the other thing that really hit me was I just spent at that time, like six years championing, like music venues as safe spaces. And there was this glaring emission. Perhaps that's not somewhere you'd get beaten up, but you would certainly, sexual harassment, assault and even rights were coming out of our, our beloved scene, whether we liked it, you know, was that it was an awful realization. So I felt a moral responsibility to do something about it and also a duty of care to the artists, because remember the artists were in their workplaces, they don't have the same workplace protections that other businesses are afforded they are micro businesses. And many of these artists had stories about getting harassed by bar owners or staff. And, um, we had a duty of care to know that they could go to work with safety and dignity.

So I use my then position. Cause now this is six years later, I'm on the round table, I have influence. So I wrote to the then minister for justice, Jane Garrett. Unwaveringly, she said, Have a task force. So I, I got together with Dr.Bianca Filburn and a small working group, Katie Pearson from LISTEN I'm at Lucy Tibush from revolver group and a security guard and we formed some policy and created a pilot a Program around training and work with Briony, Benny from the good night out campaign in the UK.

And, and basically there was an awareness campaign, a poster campaign. There was a training program that's been adapted in some forms, but a lot of that, uh, the, the findings have not quite been tabled yet. I'm sorry to say, however, T=the awareness was really important around that time. And people like Dr Fileburn and went on to do further studies and pilots around festivals and have written a number of safety protocols working with venues and festivals and so we've seen a shift. It wasn't the huge cultural shift that I wanted to see. The big behavioral change that everyone would do the same training program and have the tools to deal with the behaviors that they were seeing. However, Me Too came after this remember, so there was a big push around that time of getting stories out and, and actioning things. So I feel that a lot of the venues and people in our industry as well are good as citizens, they want safe spaces. So a lot of them have self-imposed changes within and protocols. And then there was another campaign called the “your choice” campaign that was taken up. That was started by Stacey Pigott, she's a publicist out of new South Wales and taken up by a lot of Festivals and the arts center run that program throughout the, my music bowl season, for example. And there's been others and, and they'll continue as well, but I do feel there has been a shift in attitude from that first moment to where we are now, you know, it's six years later.

Chelsea: Do you think, broadly speaking may two's made a genuine impact in the music industry.

Helen: I a lot of people say it hasn't, but I feel it hats because, uh, whether it was the first round or at the most recent round we've had where a group formed post the pandemic, uh, which created around a photographer and around a manager out of Brisbane as well. And that came together of women, just sharing stories. And a lot of them were unaware of the stuff that had happened just a couple of years beforehand, but they needed this comradery. They needed a space to share their stories and tell their stories. And I know there's been some real failures around the Me No more campaigns. And some of the, the good intentions that came out of a lot of these campaigns, uh, without the skillset. Um, so the, the intention of Tracy Spicer’s group for example, was to triage these stories as they came in and send them off to the right places and collect money to do that. But that never eventuated because it was just big. For women with good intentions. And that's where we have to be really careful because there are great groups out there that run support services and, and are ready to act and getting behind places like CASA for example. Would be more beneficial in the long run than trying to reinvent things over and over again, whether they're you know, codes of conduct or protocols or all these things that pop up from time to time.

We can take, uh, individual responsibility as I keep mentioning, but it's when we come together and that's when we make real change.

Chelsea’s: Bakehouse studios is an iconic much love studio space in Melbourne. Can you go back to the beginning and just tell us a little bit about the story of Bakehouse.

Helen: Geez it's a funny place. Um, Quincy and I were living overseas, his band Blue Ruin in the eighties were touring and living in England. We came back and he'd always had his old rehearsal places that, uh, he could never pay the rent on. I remember they'd always get evicted because they couldn't come up with the $2 per week per band member at the time. But anyway, he was looking for a space and Bakehouse in North Fitzroy came up. It was the old Silkwood studios. And before then York Street studios, and now it's probably one of the longest existing recording studios in Victoria. So it was somewhere for his band to set up and I remember looking at the bookings book, which is now 30 years old in the first year, you'd see stuff like, the Triffids, the Go-Betweens, dirty three and then moving on the year after and bands like the Avalanches during pre-production for that first album and bands like Frente and just this beautiful who's who, of sort of Melbourne music at the time.

And we we still have the North Fitzroy of studios and, it's, uh, leased out to Swimming Pools, studios now, which is Harvey Sutherland and Jackie winter and there's some little labels there. North Richmond had been around for a long time as well. They were, it was the early stable sound studios in the eighties before then it was a squat and, and the kids in the Catholic school all thought it was haunted for years. There's lots of old stories. And before then it was an old carriage house and a warehouse. And so lots of really interesting labyrinth of old stuff that you discover in the building. And again, that started slowly and with no money. And Quincy hates me telling this story, but junk picked up off the side of the road. A lot of repurposed really loved, very slow sort of, uh, incubation of the space. And then we kind of created our own little oasis there with this garden made up of cuttings and we have a $25 rule -  you're not allowed to spend more than that on anything in the garden. And it's probably less now, but you know, this beautiful open air space and these eclectic rooms where  in 2014, we invited a whole lot of visual artists to come in and do these. Wild permanent installations in the space, um, which we're redoing 2020 art project as well. We run a public art program out the front, and we have tiny little spaces where you get kids coming in for their first ever jam to huge spaces where international touring artists come in. Um, I think of, as Elvis Costello said, they were the best rooms in the world he'd ever been to.

We've had some glorious moments there with some of our iconic and most favorite artists. So, you know, even the Rolling Stones were booked in the night before they canceled hanging rock. So, uh, they did cancel in the end, but you know, to have bands like that, flirt with us is a big vote of approval.

Chelsea: Have you had any kind of star struck moments? I know you've had artists like Paul Kelly and Tina Arena and Nick Cave and so many people using the space

Helen: I used to, but I don't anymore. John Cale was the real moment, you know, founding member of the Velvet Underground. And he was just beautiful. And that was a really special moment for Quincy and I. And what was really great for us is that he came in. With all this charted music walked into the space. I remember we'd filled up with flowers were so excited. He was coming and put our gorgeous Bakehouse touches in there. And I think I even baked cakes or biscuits and lovely cups of tea and he just got so inspired and creative that they all started jamming and spent extra time in the studio and, and just said it was such a creative energy that. It was, it just, it was a real buzz. And for us, that was really reaffirming of what we'd done. Um, there was another moment, one day. Oh, Cat Power coming in.

Yep. I was a little star struck. So I do. And Kim Deal, when the Pixies were in town, I took her flowers having, Auntie Ruby and Uncle Archie come in with all the grandkids hanging out with my kids in the early days, just playing in the courtyard with some really treasured memories for me. But a funny little moment, I walked upstairs one day and I wasn't expecting this person to be there. And Billy Bragg was sitting there talking to, um, Brian Nankervis I, and this is so out of character, I just went up and hugged him and I never do that. I'm very respectful, but I'd been following him on Twitter and I'd really follow a lot of his political writings, Billy how great to see you. I just gave him this big hug and he went, I, and thank God, Brian didn't say I was some crazy lady that had just come up the stairs, but, um, that was yeah, really out of character for me, but a really enjoyable moment too.

Chelsea: In terms of being a businesswoman. I think I read the other day that around less than 30% of businesses in Australia of any industry are owned by women. But I think it's a lot less in the music industry. How do you think we can encourage more women to step into. business management and being business owners.

Helen: Yeah. And that's where having support is really important because when we look at even that level of promoters, for example, generally have some financial backing or support behind them. So it is very difficult if you don't come from privilege and money to step into business. However, creating your collectives, creating your groups, starting up little artist, run spaces like ours. We had no money. We probably still don't. But back at the time, just, um, you know, taking a punt, renting a little space and creating our environment of what we wanted to do. So. I think opportunities are probably better now because you can have a startup. You can crowdfund before you go into business, you can test out ideas on your friends and I feel it's important that don't wait, don't wait to be invited into that record company or don't wait for too long in that job that you're not happy. And then pandemic has opened up opportunities. You know, there, there will be a great leveler out there where it's been very beneficial for some and not for others. But, um, use this moment to reflect on what you can do with other people to create that vision of that future and whether it's business or art or whatever you want to do.

Chelsea: So you're an activist, you're a business owner, you're also a mum and a partner. How do you balance all of these things? Is there any Helen time?

Helen: Um, I make it occasionally and I think my time is when I see my girlfriends and get together and um that's actually what I wanted when I came out of pandemic.

Although I adore my partner and get a lot of great reinforcement from him and, you know, kids can be needy. They're just like little baby birds that you're feeding all the time. And the pleasure is in watching them grow up. But my girlfriends, I wanted to step out and just have that moment where we talk shit and drink cocktails and spend five minutes commenting on each other's hair or something as mundane as that because it builds me up, you know, just putting on your lipstick to see the people that you know will not judge you. And they will, they're there just to make you feel better about yourself. And these are the moments that really matter for me.

And of course, you know, taking time to enjoy, look, I do a lot of cooking and I have a lot of people around my table. I'm Greek. And so that's, you know, culturally, I'm an over-feeder and I give out a lot, but bringing back in, um, I'm not good at that. Sometimes I do suffer burnout and I do have anxiety and I don't sleep at night and menopause was hell for me if, if anyone wants any tips, just hit me up so it us through other people that, that I get that nourishment and through my community and, and through friendship.

Chelsea: Well we are so fortunate to have you in our community thank you so much Helen for all the work you do and for taking the time to chat with me.

Helen: Oh, Chelsea, it's such a pleasure looking at your face across this podcast. People can't see that we're actually seeing each other right now, but it's, it's just been wonderful. And thank you. Thanks so much.