Episode 09: Emily Cheung
Business owner and publicity expert Emily Cheung talks us through publicity campaigns, her experience as PR Manager at Sony, expectation management and working with radio.
Credits
Produced and presented by Chelsea Wilson
Editing by Chelsea Wilson and Amy Chapman
Transcript by Britt Raine
Transcript
[Chelsea]: Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast with Chelsea Wilson, where we speak to phenomenal women in the music industry, who have taken control of their music and control of their careers. My guest for this episode is an exceptional businesswoman, public relations specialist, and mother. I am thrilled to introduce Emily Cheung.
After working at Sony music for over 7 years promoting recording artists to the media, Emily stepped out on her own as managing director of On The Map PR, working with artists such as Tina Arena, Kate Ceberano, Amy Shark, Ella Hooper and Montaigne. I really appreciated Emily taking the time to join our digital studio during Melbourne’s COVID-19 lockdown. Especially knowing she welcomed her third child into her family only 8 weeks before our interview, and in the midst of a major home renovation project.
We spoke about creating her own PR firm, working with Australian radio, what artists can expect when they hire a publicist and so much more. This is Emily Cheung in Control.
[Music plays]
[Chelsea]: Emily. Thanks so much for joining us on the control podcast.
[Emily]: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
[Chelsea]: How are you? What's your experience of social isolation been like?
[Emily]: *laughs* Well, after getting locked down with three kiddies, one newborn and two toddlers. So it has been very interesting. And for the first lockdown, it was working around the kids when childcare closed. And that was really challenging. But thankfully for the second lockdown I had my newborn and I couldn't have faced, I actually couldn't have faced trying to work full time around the kids anymore for that second one, my would never have handled it. So it was just very lucky that I had the baby and, um, didn't have to think about working full time in that period.
[Chelsea]: Well huge congratulations on another addition to the family and really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Um, I wanted to go back to the start of your career. I know you did some work for independent media, such as SYN and Triple R and Channel 31. What do you think your biggest learnings were from this time?
[Emily]: Yeah, I did. I started, so I studied, um, I did prof comm - Professional Communications - at RMIT. Uh, cause I knew I wanted to work with media or I just wasn't sure how I always wanted to be a sports journalist, but uh, I tried to do work experience and even trying to get work experience was such a chore. It was really challenging. So then I kind of changed my path. And then I, at Uni, I did a triple major. I don't know why, but I'm glad I did now, but at the time it wasn't that fun. Uh, and I did radio print journalism and broadcast TV as part of my degree. So that gave me a bit of a taste for all types of media.
And I definitely realized I wanted to work in the media. And then, uh, that led to, yes some shows on community radio and TV, and I loved it. And then, um, by chance it was, you know, the whole, not what you know, but who you know, uh, one of my friends that I was working with at the time [her] sister was the PR manager at Sony music, and she was looking for an assistant.
So, um, my friend was like, “Oh, you talk a lot, you know, you like music”. I was dating a muso at the time and I'm now married to him actually, and she said you should apply for it. So I did, and I was so lucky because they got something like 200 applications apparently. And they gave me an interview straight away just because of my friend vouching for me, and then talked my way into the job, uh, and started there and then ended up doing, I think now, over seven years with Sony Music before jumping in and doing my own thing.
So it's been a long journey and now I've been, yeah, that was 2005. So 15 years in the music industry this year.
[Chelsea]: So you got you break working for Sony firstly in an assistant role, but then you headed to Perth to lead the team. I read this story of you pitching tracks to commercial radio as a 22-year-old, but you didn't drink coffee so you'd be having a strawberry milkshake. Um, I love this story because to me it kind of, it really shows how, even though you'd stepped into, you know, quite a serious role, I mean, that's a big role being responsible for servicing media, with tracks, from a major label, but you were still being your authentic self - going I'm just going to own this and just drink my milkshake. How did you get the confidence to go and do this?
[Emily]: I was so conscious about that actually. It was something that really, because everyone - if you don't drink coffee and that's such a thing, isn't it, everyone drinks coffee these days - and I still don't drink coffee. I'm 36 years old with three children and I still don't drink coffee, but I own the strawberry milkshake now. I love the strawberry milkshake and I still do nothing has changed. But back then, I think. Yeah, I, um, so I was an assistant at Sony in the Melbourne office, and then it didn't take long before, um, the job came up in Perth and I didn't actually apply for it, but my boss who, you know, Frank Varrasso at the time really believed in me and he was amazing. And so Dennis Handlin, the CEO was like, she's too young, she can't run the state. And Frank was like, you've got to trust me. She can. And you know, at the time when you're that young, you don't even think about the responsibility of, “Oh, I can't do this”. It was just blind faith. I just wanted it and I wanted to do it and I wanted to live near the beach. And that was probably more about what I was after. And so I just did it and didn't think about, you know, how hard it would be or the responsibilities that would end, start and end with me, which I'm glad about because probably today I would. If I thought about it too much, I probably would have said no to something like that.
But it ended up being the best. It was so fun. We did four years in Perth. My partner moved over with me and it was awesome. We both kind of just lived that experience together. And yeah, I certainly, I was 22 years old and servicing major media, you know, on a Tuesday I'd go in and meet with Nova and then I'd meet with the Two Day network counterpart 92.9 and then I'd go and meet with mixed 94.5, which is like the Triple M counterpart.
And yeah there were definitely at least twice my age and it was, it probably, it wasn't daunting as such, but I definitely did notice it when I would order my strawberry milkshake, but I don’t drink coffee. So that's what I'm ordering. I'm not going to sit there and have nothing. So it wasn't really, I did have that blind confidence, but I was also well aware at the time, of my, I guess my inadequacies as a young woman in the industry, you know, and as well as that in radio is so male skewed. So I'd be taking in a song and I'll never forget. Um, I took a song into Triple M, uh, in Melbourne at the time because my senior was off on leave. And at Sony we would service everything for the library. So we'd give all copies of everything, even if they weren't relevant.
Like, and it was a, it was actually a Christmas album. That I gave to the music director of Triple M and that's probably pretty silly in hindsight. Now I wouldn't do that. Even if the company said we service the library with everything, that's just not going to get played on air. I don't think they wanted it in the library and the music director laughed and I was young. This is right before I moved to Perth - I was very young - and he said, ‘How about if I throw it a ceiling? And if it sticks. I'll keep it. Otherwise, you can take it back with you”. And this is a grown man and I was so embarrassed. And so, I felt really, I felt two centimeters tall. Like I just felt awful. You know how, when you’re spoken to you like that, and I knew I was, I'm so aware I was young as well, so I just felt really silly and obviously threw the CD at the ceiling and it fell straight down and I was like, this is so embarrassing and humiliating and at the time, he obviously didn't even realize that he was being such a bully, but he was being such a bully. The hilarious thing about it is he ended up becoming one of my really close friends. Not, it took years later, I went to Perth, he moved to Perth. Uh, about two years after I did, he was the program director over and over at Perth. Um, and then, I, of course, that's all I could think of, and I was really nervous to go on service music to him. Cause we'd had this experience. He doesn't even remember doing it. And then, um, we got to, I got to know him just through him being the boss man at the Perth Nova. And then when we were at for like social drinks or something, I reminded him of the situation and he just was so embarrassed and he, and he hits it as he said, he'd done a lot of growing up then as well.
He wasn't, you know, it wasn't 20 something or anything. He was definitely a grown man, but he ended up becoming one of my good friends. He came to my wedding, so there you go. Um, but certainly I was very, yeah. That you remember things like that, especially when you are a woman in music, I think, um, when it's so male skewed and everyone that you are working with is pretty much male or it was at the time, certainly.
When I was at Sony and servicing media more so, it was a very male heavy industry, not on the PR front, not on my team. A lot of my team were female, but the media that I was dealing with, the big wigs, the music directors, program directors, and those types at the stations. So, you definitely do notice being a young woman in that environment.
[Chelsea]: So when you say that you felt that you hadn't inadequacies in your skill set or your knowledge base because of your youth, what did you do at the time to try and counteract that?
[Emily]: I think the hardest part was, is I was, it was my job to, I was in charge of, you know, servicing music to media. So it would be my job to go into the music team at these commercial radio stations and community radio stations, but it was more the community stations that were oh, so beautiful. You know, they just appreciate you coming in. And they're so grateful. Like when I used to go and catch up with you when you were at PBS many moons ago and you know, it's a friendship and it's really enjoyable and it's a great part of your day.
Whereas commercial it is, they become your friends and that's great too. And it is very similar. But I think in that commercial world is so much more at stake for everyone involved in their roles in there financially and the songs have to work. So I was a 22 year old taking in, you know, new music and telling the music director who was probably twice my age, or if not close to it, the reasons why they should add this song [to the radio playlist].
And I'm 22 years old, you know, I don't have that experience. I haven't listened to as much music as them. They've loved music their whole lives. They've probably got 15, 20 years on me. So why would they listen to a 22-year-old woman? About why you know, telling them why they should play XYZ to that, why they should play, they need to Beyonce song or, you know, that's obvious that's an easy one, but if I'm going in there with a tough song that we really want to get played, like one of the hardest songs and the most satisfying songs that we got away on commercial radio, probably throughout my whole time with that company was Augie March ‘One Crowded Hour’. I’ll never forget because the CEO said this is a hit every day of the week. We work this until it becomes a hit. And we worked at for months and radio said, no, and you guys at community radio supported them immediately and, uh, it kind of grew from there and it did have commercial sensibilities. So in the end, commercial radio did jump, but because the radio team went in week after week with reasons why they should play it and all the new wins on the board from that week, and, you know, trying to be compelling and give them a reason as to why they should at least give it a spin or give it a shot. So I think, um, you know, trying to get a hard one away like that and them hearing it from me, this young chick, new to the industry, really, I'd only been in the music industry for about 18 months at that point. Um, so it was pretty daunting. And it was probably just me - in hindsight – I look at a 22 year-old now and I think, you know, it doesn't matter how much music you've listened to. I want to know where your ears are at because you're the ones that are consuming this music. And technically that's probably what the program directors and then the music directors at the time were thinking, oh, this 22-year-old or this young girl, she is our audience, what’s she listening to? You know, what songs does she like? Um, but when you are that person and you are that age and you are hyper aware of your age, you know, don’t see it like that. Unfortunately, so yeah. I think when we were trying to get harder tracks away where you had to really, you knew that they, I always thought that they were thinking, “What does this girl know about music? She's so new to this industry”. You know, “She hasn't got all the runs on the board”, but it's just your own. I think it's just your own insecurities that are speaking.
[Chelsea]: So in terms of which songs you had to take to radio, were you part of that decision making process? Because a major label like Sony will put out so many releases per week or per month, but from my understanding commercial radio, they might only add two or three, maybe five new songs a week to that playlist. So you're competing with independent labels and the other major labels to try and get that spot. So were you part of those conversations to go “Which songs do we pitch?” or were you just sort of told you've got to go in there and sell this song:
[Emily]: So it all comes from head office will decide, uh, usually believe it or not, even the CEO of Sony specifically has a lot to do with which singles are serviced, which songs he believes are radio hits. Uh, and then it filters down. So I was the promo manager, uh, at the time in Perth that we were speaking of, uh, and then when I left Perth, I moved to the Melbourne office and was the promo manager there.
And, um, it, the decisions were basically, I was advised which songs would be taken to radio, so I didn't get to choose singles or, uh, yeah, all that information was all pre-planned and worked out for me. And then I would do the on groundwork of servicing and taking that song to radio and, and following up to ensure it got added, and once it was added, obviously trying to get them to up the spins and working the song
[Chelsea]: And was it challenging if you thought the song was terrible?
[Emily]: Yeah! And when you work for a label like that, you know, all the songs I could be servicing a P!nk track the same week as the Susan Boyle track the same week as a Foo Fighters track as a, you know, a real, like a Yo Yo Mar classical violinist.
You know, it was really, it was quite far reaching all of the genres. People would be lying if they said “I love all kinds of music”, but when you are explaining to senior execs of major radio stations, why they should be playing this song, it's really challenging if you don't believe in the song or you don't like the song, or it's not the kind of music that you like. So, uh, certainly for me, my relationship with media was, Uh, you know, by the time I got my confidence and I definitely didn't take long because you know, people were really lovely and Perth, it was a great place to cut my teeth in that world because everyone was so generous in giving of their time. And then I moved over and not knowing any friends I had my partner. And that was it, so they all became my friends. That was who I socialized with outside of work hours. And I think that really helped with my confidence as well. I could go in and then it became, my style was that I was really honest with people and I could service a track and say, this isn't for me. But for these reasons, I do believe. It could get away on air. You know, your audience will likely be able to give this a shot for X, Y, Z, whatever it is because you know, it's been a chart hit over in the US or, you know, it's become familiar because Sydney have played over and over. So people will be aware of it, whether it's got a spend behind it, there's billboards, or it's got a synch with a TV ad, for whatever reason it is, I could at least shop them the reasons why they should consider it, but be completely honest about the fact that can't stand that song.
[Chelsea]: It sounds like there are so many other considerations that go into the playlisting beyond “This is a great song. We'll play it”. I mean, it's. This has this many, this artist has this many likes, this artist has this. There's always having to be this kind of other sort of narrative around the music to fit those formats. I mean, do you feel like you really got a great understanding of what those radio stations were really after in terms of their formats?
[Emily]: Yep, definitely. And that's where, especially now that I've gone out on my own and it's been, you know, it's been nine years that I've been doing this for my own business. And it's really hard to tell indies and explain to them that if you are going to have a shot at this, you know, it's a long game you need to get to the point of, there are so many things that are being considered. You need to get to the point of having the budget to be able to, if you want to be a big player, then you need to play with the big boys and I can outline to them, this is what that looks like. So that's why let's take it slowly and grow your brand from where you are now. And there's no shame in that. And it does take time and you have to be aware that you can't just service a song and think that it's gonna - so many bands come to me and say, you know, I would love to employ you. I really want this. I want it. I want high rotation on Triple J and that's the goal. And, you know, it's the first song they've serviced. So Triple J have never heard of them. And, and yeah, it's hard because I just, the first thing I'll always say is Triple J is not the be-all and end-all, and yes, they are so important but if that's your goal, you know, we need to start here and work up to that.
I feel like maybe 10% of my working week is explaining to bands and playing devil's advocate, being real about the industry. There are so many factors involved and a lot of luck as well, but it's not just about a great song anymore.
It's not. There's only there's, you know, there's, as you said, maybe two to five spots for new additions, some weeks, there's no spots for a new add at radio. So, if there's one spot, for example, how does this band get it over - oh well, Justin Timberlake and Beyonce released a new single - there's no time to get this unknown artist away.
It’s like winning- the chances of getting a song away on a mass scale, it’s probably, you’d have better luck winning the lotto without sounding miserable. It's a big challenge, which is why, what, my advice to everyone that's giving it a shot is, don't be deterred by that because you know, there are so many other great wins that you can have along the way that can see you be set up as successful and make a career out of this. It doesn't have to be, that you get radio play across the board.
You know, playlisting is such a big deal. DSP streaming sites. That's a big deal. If you can get playlisted and get your streams in there, I work with so many bands that make all of their revenue from streaming platforms. So there's new ways. Back in the day, radio was king and radio still plays an important part, definitely, but there are certainly other ways and, and for an indie artist that is trying to crack the industry, there are plenty of other avenues that they should be focusing on and not be deterred by the fact that it is like winning the lotto.
[Chelsea]: Do you think it's time though, that there is a sort of review done into commercial radio? I know there's always this conversation around quotas. From an economic point of view, I really do feel that if there was an increase even a five or 10% of Australian music at radio, the economic effect, I mean, to me it's a really clear and obvious correlation that Ed Sheeran, you know, being the, one of the biggest played artists on commercial radio in Australia, it's no coincidence that then he sells 10 nights at Rod Laver. So if we could give 10% of the Ed Sheeran time, to Australian artists, maybe they'd have a crack of selling out The Corner. You know what I mean? I'm not saying we'll all become Ed Sheeran but-.
[Emily]: I agree entirely, and I think it's so important and it's so easy for Australia. I think it would be so much easier for Australia to support their own by making such small changes. I really feel like the Australian quota is embarrassing because we are in Australia, support your own, give that our time and you know what. Giving that airtime to Australians can prove successful - look at Sia. She is a global success superstar. She's Australian. She moved overseas because this industry turned their back on her. I'll never forget. Do you remember? She went, uh, she went overseas. She slogged it here for years and didn't get a whole lot of love. And then she moved abroad and started writing, you know, got picked up by a great publishing agency and then, you know, had a song that was picked up by Rihanna and she had some really big hits. And then she started releasing her own songs as well, and then took off everywhere. And that's when she won the Aria. And Aria invited her over to accept her award and she, she sent a video submission, accepting the award. And I remember the media were really nasty about it, like, and she's turned their back on this country and, and she was so great. I can't remember the statement, but I will never forget. She did come out and say something in return, which was awesome. And it was something along the lines of, you know, um, “Mate, you turned your back on me. That's why I moved abroad to make my career”. So it's, you know, touché. So I definitely think it would be so easy for media to start supporting more Australians.
And we've got so much talent here. I mean, look at Amy Shark, she's getting commercial radio play. Take more chances on artists and you can turn them into Amy Sharks. You know, it's all about building the familiarity of that artist. And that's what radio is, is. And you know, all of us it's, this is what we are when we consume our music.
When we love something, if it's familiar to us, we're likely, we're more likely to say we like it. If we're aware of it and we think it's familiar and that's what it is. And when you’re servicing radio, you know, they want to spin it 120 times before they put it in for a test. And the test is, you know, a series of questions. Do you know this song? Uh, and then if they say yes, and you know, it's brings down a whole heap of other questions, but once a song registers is being familiar, the likelihood of that person saying they like it, is high. So what media need to do is play more Australian music to familiarize these artists and build them up because look, they took a chance on Vance Joy, and then that crossed over, Amy shark and it crossed over. There are so many artists, we've got all the talent in the world. We can do it. We just need to give them that airtime to grow that familiarity and we can support Australians.
[Chelsea]: Yeah, we've got the talent there it's undeniable. The talent is there, the songwriting ability is there. I'm just not really sure what is happening, you know, within those media cultures that they feel that it's not relevant to their audiences because the evidence and the studies show, as you say, that audiences like what they're familiar with and they go to those stations because they trust in their tastes to tell them what is cool. So you know, people are very aligned to that brand. You don't, I'm a Triple M listener. I'm a Nova listener. They're aligned to the brand. So if Nova says, this is the thing, this is what they go with. So to just say, well, this music doesn't fit us because it doesn't fit our audience. It's like, well, hang on now, your defining what that audience likes.
[Emily]: And you groom that audience to like this artist and you can be the difference between these artists making it huge or not. Certainly, definitely. And you know, it is so rare that there are artists that do crossover from a community platform, like Triple J for example, and then they can, um, straddle both commercial and community, but it has happened.
I mean, Amy Shark, Vance joy, those two artists that I mentioned, they both you know, started off with love at community radio. So, um, I definitely think commercial can look more to what is working on a community radio level and cross it over because it's already familiar. I mean, how many of us flick radio stations? I do! I've got all my pre dial set. I flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. So. I think if they just take more of a chance for them, they see it as more work. I think they see it as more work because they personally need to invest in getting the audience familiar. Whereas if, for example, if for a radio plugger that if Fox FM or the Two Day Network counterparty is already playing the new song from whatever artists it's much easier for Nova to then jump on board because Fox has done the hard work on it to get it familiar. And most people that listen to Fox listen to Nova - is a general assumption that you can make. So then Nova as a radio, plugger going into Nova with an ad already at Fox. It's much easier to get. It's just hardest to get them to lead. Whoever's going to lead first is the one that has to put in the hard work and potentially face loss of listeners because people flicking go, haven't heard that song when they play it for the first 30 times that then they flick off that station and don't, you know, they miss that whole chunk of time spent listening that they're serving them ads and other songs as well. Whereas if they just play straight up, you know, Pink song it's familiar. The voice is familiar. They don't even need to get it to test because it's familiar instantly in the vocal so-.
[Chelsea]: It's just so interesting this whole hesitation to be the front runner with a track, or even a story. Cause I've had a similar, response with print saying we're interested in the story, but we want to see who else picks it up before we pick it up before we run with it. But at the same time, it seems contradictory to what's happening a lot in the online space with a lot of sites all wanting to be the premier. So we'll cover your track if we get to premiere it, what is this obsession with the premiere? I mean, everyone wants to premiere the song, but then commercial radio don't want to play the song unless someone else has played it.
[Emily]: The way that works is if you give the premiere of this song to the outlet that, the winning outlet that gets to premier the song, uh, it benefits them because it's the premiere. So the artist - and part of the negotiation, the back end is usually that the artists will share that web link for the premier. So all of a sudden it's mutual engagement of I'm sharing my audience with you, you're getting the time spent listening, I'm giving you my song. So you can, that's how you can sort of, it goes up the chain.
Then you can get a bigger outlet to do the premiere because you've actually, you know, you commit to sharing it. So then they want the share. And that's how you grow that media presence. So, um, if you don't give one of the bigger outlets, the premier, then they might not support you. So you kind of have to go large or not, or give up that outlet for the whole campaign.
It's so hard, it's such a tough juggle. And even as you said, you know, the papers are the same. All media are the same and bands don't realize the juggle and the arguments that we do actually have with media, because you're, if you all want the first run in the paper, well, then I'm only going to get one for the artists, one run for the artist. And I just had it recently actually with Rufus Wainwright, we had a Rufus Wainwright album that we were working. And we locked in interviews with two majors, and I won't mention who, but they were both locked in and none of them specified that they needed the first run, but then, um, one of them asked and because none of them had specified, I gave it to them because they were a huge national. And then the other said, Oh, I need the first run on this, by the way, I'm going to run on this date. And I said, no, it's actually already been locked in. And then they said, well, we won’t run it at all. So it's like, Okay. So because media, all, you know, they're all fighting with each other for that first run. It means the ones that lose are actually the artists. Then all of a sudden we only get one media bite for this artist, despite it being a fantastic album and, um, you know, uh, well-known artists - Rufus Wainwright is the one that loses in that situation. So, and that's a daily basis. That's what a publicist’s nightmare is. “All right. Who are we going to give up on this one? Who are we willing to not have run this because you're not going to get them all” - purely for that reason, unless it's a Beyonce and they all go, Oh, we just want her. But for anyone that's lesser tiered than that, you really have to choose your media and go and be happy with it and go, all right, we're not going to get them because we're going to get them instead.
[Chelsea]: I really want to chat to you about establishing your own PR firm. I mean, after this, you know, extensive and really successful stint at Sony, that must've been such a, a brave new world and a new chapter in your personal life and in your career. I mean, how did you get the courage to branch out?
[Emily]: Um, it was something I always wanted to do. It was something that I had said with my work colleague at Sony, we would start a business together, but she ended up leaving to have babies. So I was like, well, I'm not ready for babies. I'm going to go and do this by myself then.
I knew that I'd progressed through Sony as much as I could, because I didn't want to go to Sydney. I'd already done the Perth thing and my family were all in Melbourne and I'd returned to Melbourne and Sony were very good to me - I've got to say. You know, I did my time in Perth and I needed to come home for family reasons.
One of my family members was going through something, some health issues. And so Dennis was amazing. He was like, all right, um, we'll get you a spot in the Melbourne office. And you know, part of my condition was, well, I don't want anyone to lose their job because I'm not pushing anyone aside. And they're all my friends. This is my team and there's no job in the Melbourne office. So, but he created a job for me and was very good to me. Um, and every time I thought that I wanted to try and start my business, he was wonderful. And, you know, I, you know, I don't want to say bribed to stay, but you know, when you're offered more responsibilities and more money, it's hard to say no. So I stuck around and stuck around. And then in the end, um, the way that I was able to leave that company so amicably was actually because my sister and I did this ridiculous stint on a cooking TV show just for fun. I was able to say, “I'm leaving and I'm probably not going to come back because I don't know what opportunities will come after this show”.
So, um, that was great. I left and I parted on great terms and they're all still my pals. And then I started my business on the other side of that show. Um, after I did a very quick stint on air, on commercial radio as well with this chipmunk voice, very recognizable. Uh, and then I started my business, and it was great because Sony was so supportive, and they gave me some really big jobs straight off of the bat. So I'm very grateful to them for supporting me through starting my own business. They could easily have looked at me as a competitor, all of a sudden. Um, but instead they realized the artists that I was close with and still, even to this day, I've - Pete Murray is one of those artists - You know, I worked all of his releases when I was at Sony and we had a great relationship. When I left, he really wanted me on the team, still, and Sony were really wonderful about outsourcing to us and they trusted us because they know how I work. And yeah, it was, it's been a great thing. And we still, we’re about to release an EP for Pete at Sony. Um, so we've got this, still got this great relationship going on and they outsource a lot of their Australian artists to us. In fact, we do, um, most of their Australian, their less commercial Australian stuff. It was a great - It’s worked out really well and I've been really lucky in that they were supportive of me and didn't say me as a competitor. And then the best thing is, is, you know, other labels knew who I was as well. So Universal have used us and Warner have used us. And yeah, we're very lucky. I think I've really hit a bit of a niche spot where all the labels know us.
[Chelsea]: I mean, it's so clever. I know, a bunch of major labels are using, you know they're outsourcing PR for specific releases. I mean, it's smart because it's a lot to expect that your internal PR team are going to really understand the niche of every single genre.
Cause those major labels, they do it all. I mean, there's such huge conglomerates that have taken on jazz labels or classical labels or heavy labels and being able to say this this PR firm really understand these releases, we'll go with them. You know, it's, it's really clever.
Um, you know, the music industry has just changed so much, um, you know, in our time, but you know, even over the last, you know, 40, 50 years, and labels signed less artists than ever before, you know, hence this kind of gap, I suppose, in the music industry where independent publicists have been able to play this much bigger role than they used to be able to. So there's so many people now that say that they can do PR who maybe don't really understand or have those kinds of relationships, you know? So how should an independent artist choose a PR firm to work with?
[Emily]: And it's such a good question. And it is really challenging for an independent artist, to get their head around what PR is.
And, you know, PR is such an enigma as well. Isn't it? I explain it to my artists that PR [BH1] is the pursuit of media exposure. I can't guarantee what I'll be able to get for you, but I know I have great relationships. If your music is great, if there's not too much out there in terms of competition, basically, if all the stars align, we might be able to get you some media attention. However, I don't promise you anything. So give me all your money and I don't know what I'll get you for it. Like it's hard for anyone to be able to trust that. Right. They don't know me personally. I am trustworthy, you know, that because you know me, but people that are taking it's a real gamble. And so when people don't really understand what they're getting into, I just explain to them, you know, you could use your, the fee that I would take, you could use it in by an ad. And that is what we call marketing. You know, you could book an ad in street press, or you could buy some radio carts at PBS. So, you know, that's how we would, we would see that as marketing spend or you could give me that money that you would use on boosting your socials and getting your ads, et cetera. And trust that I have relationships with the right media outlets to get content and editorial going - to build a vibe and get a buzz going for you, your brand and your music, build familiarity for you out there in the marketplace. And that's a big trust. It's a leap of trust because they don't know that my relationships are so strong, they have to trust that. We are, we are in a privileged position that we are so boutique-y, we are small, we work with, you know, we've got a real type of artists that we work for. And we know as soon as we click play, whether that artist is going to fit in our roster, because our roster is the way it is for many reasons. But the main one is A: that we love it. We understand that kind of music but B: media know when they press play, what to expect from our roster. So, you know, if all of a sudden I'm servicing a heavy metal track, media will be like, what is this? You know, they're expecting an indie folk track from us, you know?
So, um, that's got a lot to do with it as well, but we do have such a small roster that we can, comfortably say, you know, if we do take on an indie artist, it's because we truly believe we can help them progress, we can help progress their career and get media to listen. That's the beauty of using a publicist is media know them. They've got an existing relationship. Hopefully they will press play on your music. It's the hardest thing for an indie band. How do I get people to hear it? How do I get the right people within the industry to hear it? How do I get them to press play so that they fall in love with it?
So that's my theory is we are the reason that people will press play. The music's got to do the talking from there on, so again, we are privileged that we have such a small roster. We believe we take on all the, you know, we only take on the stuff that we truly believe will get some good media attention. So everything media presses play on should be loved or enjoyed by the media that we're talking to because we know their tastes and that's why people are paying for our services is, our relationships and what, you know, our knowledge on media.
[Chelsea]: So can we chat a little bit about expectation management? Cause I feel like that's sort of we've just touched on that a little bit, because I've often had musicians say to me as well, “I had a publicist, but I was really disappointed”. You know, it's just not realistic for an independent artist to think that they're going to get added rotation or the front page of a newspaper, you know, for their first ever release. And I often say to artists, you know, it is a long-term investment and you're paying for that publicist’s, um, time and the fact that they've built up relationships, that you don't have time to build yourself - that's what you're paying for. But what is a realistic expectation? And should we be reframing our thinking around PR as, as a long-term game?
[Emily]: Absolutely. And that's the biggest challenge and half of what we do when we work, our indie campaigns is managing expectations. And I think, um, sometimes you can get it wrong. Sometimes people, uh, you know, it doesn't matter how clear you are about explaining that it's a very busy, busy time of the year, perhaps just a bit - It's busy, it's a busy environment, 24-7. There's always people releasing music. There's always indie artists, servicing music. So you're always going to be competing with a lot of others out there. And that is, you know, that's the downfall. And also the beauty of 2020, you know, we live in the digital age, you can make a record in your garage, so can everyone else. So, you know, you take those benefits, but then you've got to deal with that. How do you cut through the noise? And that's such a great question because, it is, it's a challenge to manage their expectations when they think, oh, well, we're paying this fee. That means we're gonna get Triple J play, and paying that fee means that I'm going to talk to the media that I discussed with you that I think is relevant, but whether or not they like it, or as I said earlier, whether they have room for X, Y, Z [BH2] reasons, um, or, you know, sometimes they say, “Oh, I really love this”. And they really do love it, but I've got so many male vocals. That have been serviced over the last couple of weeks. I've got a backlog. I'm not going to be able to get to this song despite loving it. And that's hard to pass back to the artists because you know, and sound genuine as well. They really like it, but what you this time, but you know, with the next single you want to get them on board and how do I say that without coming across as “I just want to work your next single” or then potentially seeing it as that. So in that instance, I would usually just say, um, you know, if you're working the next song yourself, I'm still happy to keep those conversations going with this person and I can service it, just, you know, off the back of this campaign and get that win away next time if the stars align.
We're really, we’re very active communicators. You know, we'll say when we get not, if we get no’s, a lot of our artists will say, you know, “What's your dream from this campaign? What are the outlets that you really love? Which ones do you absolutely want to nail?” and go from there. And then we'll always be very communicative with when we get a no, um, and they really were hoping to land that, you know, I'll give them a copy paste of the reason why, or whatever it is. So just constantly, we communicate with our artists for an indie campaign every day they'll hear from us and we'll talk every day. So it's, um, by default we're managing their expectations just by communicating our wins and losses. All the time. Um, but upfront when they're choosing to trust us when they've never worked with us before, um, I definitely play a conservative game and explain to them that, you know, we would be lucky - even with, even with major releases like the Josh Pike album, you know, I'm straight up. And I said, “Album reviews are really hard to come by at the moment, a real challenge to come by, especially in the papers when you, you know, in the Herald sun was the spot for one or two album reviews in the week”. Managing Indies is a big deal and it's hard to manage their expectations, but you've got to really manage major labels as well, because sometimes they're the ones that expect that huge coverage when you can't get it for everyone, even if the album warrants it, you can’t always snag it because there's one music feature in that week. So it doesn't matter how good my relationships are if it's being taken, it's being taken. PR is great media relationships and managing expectations of the client. That's how I see this job.
[Chelsea]: I always felt like when I worked in PBS that, you know, I was holding in my hands, you know, the hopes and dreams of so many artists and, you know, we had this reject bin, where, you know, the announcers could return CDs that they didn't want, you know. And I'm an environmentalist, and I was really conscious of the plastics. So, my strategy was, the CDs that were rejected and sent back, I would have volunteers listen to and then re-distribute those to graveyard shows. Cause I thought if the people in the drive and breakfast daytime spots don't like it, or maybe they've already got a copy of it - cause that happens too - then at least we give these artists another chance at the airwaves, but sometimes these disks were coming back, coming back and we had a little sticker system, so we knew when they'd come back. So some of them were ended up with five, six stickers, the end at the end, I've had to take these disks to the recycling depot. There is a, a, a big bin where you can go put disks and it's just like, oh, you know, like, how do you go about, you're giving that constructive criticism, passing that on, you know, cause so many musicians, this is hopes and dreams. You don't want to crush their spirits.
[Emily]: Well, you've done it more than me because you're feeding that directly back to them. But I do it on a different scale, you know, for us. And I do it every day, for sure. Even like right now, I'm, you know, every day I'll get emails, um, with bands saying, you know, wondering if you might be interested in working our PR or taking us on, and there's just, we just can't do it because it's amateur or not good enough or not, not, not good enough, but often, often it's just that it's not right for us.
And what's not right for us is potentially right for someone else. So I'll try to be honest with them. In fact, just yesterday I sent an email and said, look, your song is strong. And then I press play on the video and they've spent on the video and the video is not - it takes away the strength of the song.
And now I don't in fact like the song anymore, but I didn't say that. Um, but you know, I have to find a way to say what I need to say. And I, for me, I think the truth hurts definitely, but I'd rather hear the truth. So I like to be constructive when I can be, rather than just saying, Oh my roster's full, sorry, try this person.
I will always try if I can, if it's not too delicate, I will try and give some constructive criticism. So I did actually say to that artist look, um, “It's a great song for these reasons, but I really feel like the video let's it down and, and a video is meant to compliment a song and we are, you know, we do what we listen with our eyes and presenting a video and a SoundCloud link people are going to press play on the video before they press play on the SoundCloud link, because if there's a video, they'll watch that instead of just listening. So if your video is not going to be strong enough to uphold the strength of the song, don't service the video”. So I actually said, “We couldn't work this video for you, but the song would be something we could entertain if we had room on our roster”. And they don't like hearing that though, because sometimes they've spent three, five grand on that video and what are they going to throw it in the bin? Because someone they don't know and don't trust is telling them it's not good enough? So it is tricky, but I still, you know, I still choose that harder route and tell them.
What I genuinely think and, you know, try and soften it by saying not meaning to offend, but, um, I would want to know if, if that was me, so. Um, sometimes they're grateful and they totally changed their tune and path and are willing to forego that money that they spent. And, you know, half the time they would say, “Oh, I was never really in love with it either, but I just needed to hear it from someone working in the industry”.
[Chelsea]: Yeah. But you know, you know your media, you know, and there's only limited amount of outlets, so it might be a great song but if you know that there's not really anywhere in the media, that this is going to go, you're wasting time, money, you know, so it's important. I've had feedback like that. I remember, you know, when I was really young, still at Uni and I really wanted to get a gig in Japan and I heard of these residency gigs going in Japan and I wanted to go to Japan. So I sent my demo, I sent my pictures to this agent in Sydney. And he was so upfront with me and just said, look great, really nice singing songs are great, but the pictures are all black and white. They're too artsy. The two artistic for Japan. They need to see smiles. They want color. It's got to look vibrant and the recording - all the songs are wrong. It's not going to work in Japan. So go back to the studio, go back at more photos done. And I did, and I, and then I got the gig. So once I had the right materials, it was only a couple of weeks. And then, you know, I ended up doing three six-month contracts singing in Japan. So, you know, um, which was amazing for me.
But in terms of that asset creation, we talk a lot in the industry about assets. You know, you need, you need the promotional assets. And I know that, you know, you can't go and deliver a PR campaign until you have those right assets, but - musicians study music, writing songs, performing. So all of a sudden to have these skills in cinematography or art direction, I mean, it's a completely different set of skills and, and of frame. So how do you suggest to artists who go about creating visual assets that really reflect their music authentically that also appeal to media? I mean, this is just such a tricky thing to be able to do.
[Emily]: It's tricky and it's expensive. And you know, when, when you know, I work my day job and I work in PR, what I do is talk for a living and I'm good at it. These musicians are good at music, and I just happened to be married to a musician. So I get to hear the plight of that musician every day. Uh, and for a musician, what they love is making the music, how are they meant to know how to market it? Publicize it. Do the artwork for it. And all retain that integrity as an artist and for the brand to retain that integrity as well.
And for them to, to know how to do it, uh, and to have the money to do it as well. So it's hard and it, that's why I always say to our indies, you've got to be, if you're planning to release one song, we're not the team for you because you're going to invest all of this into one song, hoping that it takes off, uh, and we'll make you enough money for the next song. It's a long game. You've gotta be in it for the long game. And yeah, it's expensive. You've got to think about everything. Photo shoots, artwork – sure you might, you know, in bands a lot of the time, you know, someone will be great with digital creator or, you know, someone's worked in film before, or someone studied this at uni, so they can sort of help each other out, or this person's sister's a journo she'll write the bio or whatever, but it is expensive, especially for solo artists to be able to fund all of it and to have them know how to do it because you're the, you're the talent. You can write the great songs you can sing and record the great songs when you can, you know, maybe you do it at home or maybe you go to a recording studio, but how are you meant to know how to get it out there to the masses?
It's your job and your skill to make the great tunes. What next? And that's where it's so hard because I, I always say to everyone, you know, just start applying for all the grants that you can, and there are private grants. There are government grants. There's so many more grants than people realize. So, um, just, you gotta be in it to win it.
So, you know, on your weekends, in your evenings, after you get home from slogging it at your day job, so that you can go and record your next song, um, you need to be applying for grant money.
[Chelsea]: What do you consider or define to be a successful PR campaign? Like when does Emily go “I smashed that one. When do you open the Chandon?”.
Do you look at sales album sales or streams, or are you looking at how many interviews you've placed? When's the like fist in the air moment?
[Emily]: It's a great question. And I - there's so many, it depends on the type of campaign that I'm working because sometimes, um, sometimes the artist will have, uh, us working in conjunction, like if it's with a label, then there's a whole marketing team behind them and a marketing spend behind them.
So even socials being boosted, posts are being boosted, they've got someone plugging their playlist as well. So, you know, someone's talking to Spotify and Apple and all those DSPs about getting their songs curated and added to playlists. So, you know, if I were to judge it by streams in that occasion, it hasn't all been us. You know, the great majority of streams is being to do with the whole, you know, there are many pieces to the puzzle to get a campaign to work as successfully as you can. So we can never get a true indication of that. But how do I determine? And when do I decide that I'm happy with a campaign?
We don't stop working a campaign until we're happy with it. With an indie campaign we do, we think that we can tie it up within a period. So we charge for that period. But if wins are still coming, you know, weeks on from that, or if I can - often, I still get emails for campaigns that I worked years ago, and haven't even spoken to the band in years. Cause it was just a one-off and you know, um, they've gone overseas, or they've changed. They just they've disbanded or whatever. I'll still always track them down. Even if their numbers changed, I'll always manage to get that media request to them so that they can, you know, action and turn that into a reality, that opportunity. So, um, we don't stop working until we know that they've gotten everything that they can from the media that we're pitching to, that we know is relevant for that band.
So every campaign, I would say, we work as a success cause we don't stop until it is a success, but yeah. That's again about the, um, managing expectations. This is what I see to be a success for you guys, because this is who you're going to be relevant for. And if we can pull off three “video of the day”s and four single reviews and you know, some news pieces and some content and maybe a couple of video content bites and some written Q and A's and some phone interviews. Then that is, that's a screaming success for this band. Whereas obviously if it's going to be, we're about to announce a really big tour, that's going to be huge and major commercial media are going to be interested, and indies are going to be interested. You know, everyone's going to be interested. So if, what do I determine as success? I need every breakfast radio in the country to have a chat on announce, you know, I need every, I need the major papers to all roll out the announce on announce day. I need breakfast TV on announce day. It's huge. So it's not a success until I get that. So we just need the lead time and we can make it happen. You know, it's and that's where my age and my experience is, is guiding me here because I know what I should be able to achieve for this amounts. And I need, then I will tell the client, I need this much lead time and you have to pay me for it to set it up.
And I've got that confidence to be able to say, I do need six weeks of lead time. If you want me to own this campaign for you. If you want this artist to be everywhere that she deserves to be, and she will be, then you've got to set it up properly and you need to have the budget to do so. So, uh, we like to think every campaign is a success, certainly some fall flat and you expect to get more for, but no matter how many times you go back to media, you can't, you just can't get extra wins.
And it, it might be because you just had it wrong. Sometimes you have it wrong. And actually, we, we had a situation like that, not that long ago where I just still love the song. But maybe it just didn't.
[Chelsea]: I think you nailed it at the start around stars aligning, you know, there's just time and place and a whole lot of other factors seem to go into, into things, you know? I mean, and you see it, those examples, if you know, Norah Jones, her first album and she wins nine Grammys and it's like, “what?”, and she hasn't had that success since, but in the, in that year, that album was just this amazing, beautiful breath of fresh air. And obviously it resonated, you know. Um, an interesting example, I think, of, of time and place or something just cutting through surprising everyone. And then, you know, she hasn't replicated that success and it doesn't mean her other albums aren't as good.
[Emily]: Yeah. And then the other end of the spectrum as well, you know, and I know Chili Peppers have come up very vocally and said, “If we hadn't signed a five-album deal, you would not know who we are because our first four albums flopped” and, you know, and that's why it's so hard. The plight of an indie musician these days is hard. Yes. They've got greater access with the internet and everything's at their fingertips, but I really think there's a lot of noise out there. And it's really hard to cut through, which is why, unfortunately it's not just about a great song.
It's about a budget to put a team around you and to, you know, boost your posts and to employ someone to pitch for unique playlisting and curation and playlists. And I would never for all of our Indies, I would never underestimate how important it is if they can afford to get a playlist plugger that can be the difference of 100,000 spins on their song and radio taking note.
[Chelsea]: I wanted to ask you about women in PR and women in marketing. It seems to be a really female dominated area of the industry. Why do you think that is?
[Emily]: I have been asked this before actually, and I don't have a good answer. I don't have a good answer and I don't want to speak out of line either, but I really do feel like women are great communicators.
People are going to be hating on me for saying that, but I feel like we can maybe communicate more effectively and efficiently. Uh, and therefore a lot of what PR and marketing is, is, uh, relationships based and are all about communication and being organized. And, you know, my partner is the first to say that, you know, I can multitask until the cows come home.
He is useless, you know, I'll say, Oh, did you do that? When I asked you to do that? And, and, uh, I sound like a real boss. I'm not actually that bossy, but – In one ear out the other, “I was too busy doing this one thing that I was doing”. And, um, you know, a lot of my male friends would say the same. And I do think that women are wonderful multitaskers and great communicators.
And I don’t know, maybe that's got something to do with why it's so female skewed in that industry, but then it's funny because everyone that we're dealing with, then, you know, the media that we're dealing with, they’re mostly men
[Chelsea]: And just my last question for you, what changes would you like to see in the industry post COVID? Do you think there will be any changes?
[Emily]: I think there are going to be so many changes and COVID has been awful and just rotten for the whole world. You know, it's a global pandemic. People have died, it's given it, you know, it's the, COVID normal that everyone speaks about the new normal, um, whether that's face masks or whatever. But I think that the new normal for our industry and a lot of other industries and what people will take away from it is that we can trust our employees to work from home and do the work.
And I feel like the big guys, the big businesses, uh, the culprits that have never allowed it. And certainly in my experience, working from home was very not for my own business, I'm all about it, but over the years, working from home was not a thing. And you could ask to work from home, but “Why do you need to work from home? You can work from the office”. So, um, certainly I think moving forward that is going to be, people will have a voice and they can say it it's they’ve been trusted, and they've gotten the job done and probably better. Cause there's no wanky meetings taking up their time all day. There's no, um, you know, chatting in the kitchen. And, and certainly it's important to, I think it's so important to have face to face time and going into the office is important and there still will be meetings. And, you know, but there should hopefully be more flex moving out of COVID with people being able to work from home, you know, two days a week, if they want to, or whatever that, you know, whatever works for them. And they should be trusted to do so because we are - not everyone, some people will take it and run with it obviously - but I think in general, most big wigs and bosses and companies will have found that the work is still being done. They can trust their team around them to still get the job done.
So let's give a little leeway moving forward. If we were talking about work-life balance and, um, satisfaction within the workplace - I think working from home is going to be a game changer for every company across the board. If, if the workplace has that ability to work from home, I think they will find that most people will be a better worker for being able to have more flexibility within that.
And also, the other thing that I found through COVID times is I've personally seen the, the real human side of people that I wouldn't have previously. Like I had usually, you know, in many instances when I've met with the director of international marketing or whatever, from a major label, it's me flying to Sydney and we sit in this sterile boardroom and we talk shop and I pretend I know what I'm doing and you know yep. Yep. Yep. And now actually I had a great conversation with exactly this person and, um, they had their little four-year-old in the background, “Sad, dad”, and I was like, “Wow, you're not as scary boardroom type in a suit, you're actually a human like me and you have a home life and a personal life and a kid that needs you to wipe his bum”, you know?
Um, yeah, it's really brought a new – sorry, I’ve got miss four coming to visit us [Emily’s child enters the room] - um, it's yeah, it's, it's brought a new appreciation of - it's taken in my relationships with people, have taken a new life on because it makes me realize that we're all the same and it strips you back to, I can't get away from isolation.
I can't get away from my squawky kids and they're going to interrupt my important calls - case in point. Um, and it's the same for you at the other end and every other person at their end. And it breaks down the walls and moving forward, I'll never forget that. And it's going to change my relationships with everyone that I've encountered through COVID times because of that. And I love that. I think that's really special, a beautiful thing to take away.
[Chelsea]: I love that - that's such a positive, um, way to look at what's been such a hard time. I have loved talking with you today as always, always love our chats, but it's been so nice to not talk about a release and just kind of talk about your career and excited to keep an eye on what happens with, On The Map PR. Thanks so much, Emily.
[Emily]: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been so great to chat.
[Chelsea]: That was Emily Cheung in Control. Please check out the show notes for further info and please subscribe, rate and review Control for future episodes.
You’re been listening to Control. This episode was produced by Chelsea Wilson, and edited by Amy Chapman and Chelsea Wilson, with support from the City of Melbourne’s Quick Response COVID recovery grants.
This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Kulin nation with respects to elders past, present and emerging. Until next time, Chelsea Wilson signing off.
