Episode 08: Maria Amato

Industry powerhouse and CEO of the Australian Record Labels Association, Maria Amato, shares her philosophy on leadership and describes how her mentors built her confidence and enabled her to reach her goals. 

BIO

Maria Amato is the CEO and CFO of the Australian Independent Record Labels Association (AIR). She has over 25 years experience in the not-for-profit, music and entertainment sectors specialising in finance and business management. Previously, Maria held the role of CEO/CFO at the Melbourne International Film Festival (2010-2014) and was a Board member of Music Victoria (2012-2014).

CREDITS

Produced and Edited by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT

Chelsea: Maria, welcome to the podcast!

Maria: Thank you for having me so great to chat to you.

Chelsea: We are in the depths of Melbourne's very strict stage four lockdown. How are you going with social isolation?

Maria: Well, believe it or not, I am a bit of an introvert. So being isolated is not really that hard for me to deal with. And I'm always connected with zoom calls, telephone calls, emails, and everything. But I do miss not being able to have live events, not being able to see my staff for face to face, go to the office etc. But got to count your blessings and look at opportunities in amongst all this craziness and keep positive.  That's not always easy, but we have to force ourselves to think of what we're grateful for, move forward and keep the wheels turning.

Chelsea: So excited to see the air women in music mentor program announced. Congratulations on getting that initiative off the ground. Um, can you talk a little bit about that? Have you had a mentor that mentored you earlier on in your career? Do you still have a mentor?

Maria: I’m really excited about this program. My first mentor happened to be my grade three teacher. I couldn't speak English when went to school in grade prep.  I got teased by children. I got bullied by children. I was a bit of a bright kid, but I struggled in the first year or so assimilating because my first language was Italian. But my grade three teacher, Mrs. Stoneham made me believe in myself and encouraged me to channel my energies and focus and told me I could be anything I wanted to be in life.  And I believed that! And we're still in touch now, would you believe! She's such an awesome teacher? She's on Facebook. She's always got some sort of words of encouragement. She's even friends with my own son, that's how much of a great, rare and wonderful teacher she was. I also had some teachers in high school that were really encouraging. They tried to inspire me to go for scholarships, but I'm coming from a very strict Italian background where my father, I believe that a woman's role should be in the home and not be educated and not go to university that was a little tough, but they made also made me believe in myself as well.

My first couple of employers! One gave me an opportunity at 16 to run his entire legal office. Who does that?! I'm just still surprised that he agreed when his bookkeeper left for me to say, “Let me learn. Let me be the bookkeeper”.  So he actually engaged a senior bookkeeper to come and train me. And I went to the Gordon and got my certificate in bookkeeping at the age of 16 and got to run his office and he's accountant mentored me and trained me up on things I needed to know. And then when I was 18, um, my employers there couldn't believe that I hadn't gone to university, so they wrote to Warrnambool Institute got me into university as a mature age student. And back then, I didn't actually attend the class. In fact, it was all by correspondence where I had all these books and I was able to do my undergraduate degree. So I would call them a mentor too.  And I'm still in touch with those three wonderful men. And I've had lots since then. Everyone I've worked with who's supported me, encouraged me, my friends. You can find them anywhere. I haven't had a formal one. I haven't engaged into a formal arrangement. That's why this program is so exciting because it can be a formal arrangement.

There’s always refinement and improvement that we can do. It's not just about work. It's about you as a person, its about continuous improvement and learning can be fun! It’s exhilarating and empowering and hopefully I can encourage other people to look at learning that way.

Not necessarily everything you learn at university you're going to apply in life. I mean, most times they teach you discipline and follow the rules, but to be truly entrepreneurial, sometimes you have to find new paths and think outside the box and use your initiative and creativity to put your passion into profit, or to create some sort of financial future for yourself.  I think we're heading into dangerous territory where governments are wanting to dictate what is and what isn't a successful or prudent education to undertake or a career to have, because it's not up to them. Anyone can turn anything into something that makes money, if they're really passionate about it. And you may not make the millions and millions, but when you're on your death bed at the end of the day, you can look back and go “I had fun”.

Chelsea:  I love that story that your teacher instilled that self-belief and self confidence in you that you were able to say to your boss, “Hey, I should be your bookkeeper” or I should do this.

Maria:  He laughed at me and I wasn't laughing.  He goes, “how can I do that? You're 16, you know nothing. You've just come from year 10. That's all you've got.” And I'm like, “Yeah, but I can learn and I will work hard and I'll do whatever it takes”. And that's what happened!  So I’m very, very grateful, he could have easily said no, but it is something that I really, really wanted.  I'm not sure it's because I was told that my future was “be a wife, not work, not have career”. That brought out the rebel in me that said “No, I can do that and be me and have the career. It's not a gender thing.  Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I can't”. And maybe if I was allowed to go to Uni from the outset I wonder if I would've had this hunger, this thirst, this drive to go for it. You know, sky's the limit. Why not! Have a go at whatever it is that I'd like to do! And funnily enough, I'm still an accountant after all those years, because I really enjoyed it. I found that bookkeeping and accounting is not just about tax returns or anything, it helps you make decisions and record everything.

Chelsea: So where did the music come into it?

Maria: Well, after I finished at Ultimate Computer (when I was 21) then I worked on Orica for a while.  Then I went overseas and had the big holidays you do when you're in your early twenties, and when I came back, I having that holiday made me take another courageous step, and that was to start my own business. So I did that and one of my very first clients was in the music industry.  A lady called Michele Tayler gave me the opportunity to work for the Victorian Rock Foundation, and at the time we were producing the Melbourne international music festival. That was so much fun, a lot of work, but I learnt so much. Then from there other people that I met along the way became my clients and I started a bookkeeping business.  I had an office in St. Kilda road and some staff and, and it just evolved from there. And then I was asked to run the Melbourne International Film Festival about 10, 11 years ago, so I did that for about five years. While I was doing that I was the CFO for AIR, so when the previous CEO left, the board of AIR asked me if I'd like to do some juggling and do that as well. So that's what I'm doing and I'm having a great time!  I still bring that accounting element in and AIR’s built on the smell of an oily rag, but I'm really pleased to have been able to secure some partnerships with South Australian government, with the federal government, with key sponsors that have helped us deliver events.  Otherwise without that we probably wouldn't be able to do any of these things.  We’re always trying to deliver win-win outcomes, cause you don't just get money for nothing, you've got to deliver.  I really enjoy that part of it. I've got a great team. Kelly and Monica are fabulous, sponsors have been great, the board’s wonderful and hopefully the members are enjoying being part of AIR!

I love music, I love film, I love arts, like any kind of creativity, but more importantly, it doesn't really matter to me what my clients are doing, I just wanted them to love it.  If they were only interested in being in business to make money, we would find a reason not to take them on as clients because that doesn't really connect with me. I need to see someone solving a problem or creating something that they love. That gives me joy to be part of it. Leadership was a journey that I started in my first job at 16.  I was managing two people, I had no idea what I was doing, I was probably the world's worst boss, but it was fun and I learnt lots. In the second job they made sure that I got some training, they sent me on courses, so I'm very blessed and lucky to have done that. And then of course, when you run your own business, you're having to learn to do that. I also went back to university in 2010 and I did a Forensic Accounting Degree and that changed my direction from having a bookkeeping firm, to consulting my services on a senior level. I’d go into businesses and help them streamline, help them improve their efficiency. Then I got on boards and did the Company Directors course. I’ve always been interested in leadership whether or not people view me as a great one is not the point. The point is that what leaders should be doing is empowering others to believe themselves, to be capable of doing whatever they want to do and together solve problems. Because every day when we wake up we're solving problems, we’re creating new things and just got to enjoy it. Otherwise it would be a bit dull, I think.

Chelsea: So how do you go about trying to motivate and get the most out of your team? Especially in this time, it's very difficult working from home.

Maria: Well, you’ve got to lead by example.  So if I look like the world's crashed on my shoulders, I can't expect them to be excited about the day. So no matter what, it's like have a “can do” attitude. We will find a way around the mountain. Yes. This is a hurdle. Yes. This is a hiccup. Yes. This is a challenge. But what are the opportunities?  How do we solve them? I'm not a slacker, I've put in the hard yards too. So if they see that maybe that instead, they feel like I'm doing exactly what I'm asking them to do as well.

Chelsea:  The recording industry has had so many challenges over the last few decades with moving to streaming, with CD sales pretty much diminishing. Does anyone buy them? What's your advice now for independent labels and artists? Is this a good time to still be releasing music or should people wait until the pandemic's over?

No shouldn't wait, you should release, but you need to build your customer base or your fanbase, but an engaged one. You can't just have people tick a box and they like you. You need to really use this time perhaps to connect with them on a deeper level. So that. If you've got a following perhaps you let them know that you've got an upcoming record coming out and see if there is anyone that wants a special limited-edition preorder so that you're not out of pocket yourself. Other kinds of engagement that you can think of that let them know that you haven't gone to sleep, that you're still there, you're still producing it and give them snippets, engage on social media. You've probably seen some of the artists doing that. They're not actually talking about music, but they're just connecting with their fanbase, having a chat, building a relationship, a closer relationship with their fans.

The main focus I suppose, at the moment is as a songwriter, I would imagine that you must write for you.  It's something you do for your soul, as well as your livelihood. So I'm imagining that some great work can come out of this period because there's new challenges that everyone's been facing there's dark days and they would make good songs, and spoken straight from the heart too. So keep creating a library of stuff and then every artist will know when it's right for them to release it.

Chelsea:  It has also been interesting, the increase in vinyl over the last few years. I heard recently that Spotify has had a dip in spins during the pandemic, but vinyl seems to be still on the rise. I don't know what's going on with more music for consumers.

Maria: Well, that's interesting because we're online 24/7. Wouldn't it be nice to just sit at home and put the record player on, throw a disc on while you're cooking, cleaning the house, whatever it is, having a drink. And just having that in the background, physically in the background, it's kind of like being hugged, rather than the digital.  Because we're all in digital now. We have no separation from digital and work’s digital conversations with people. I like looking at the cover, reading the liner notes, looking at the artwork. It's another opportunity and it'd be shame if that's lost, but I think vinyl is expensive. So before you go lashing into releasing music on vinyl, you really need to know that your fans are going to buy it or are interested in it.  So if you've got that direct relationship with your fans, you can ask them, “Hey who would love the best of, or the new album on vinyl”. We can do a limited edition or something like that. If you're self-releasing that's the advice I'd recommend.  

From past AIR awards and INDIE CON you ask someone why they like being independent as opposed to being signed and given a huge advance. Sometimes that's a double-edged sword being given a huge advance for label because you don't have complete freedom. You are dictated to, you have a timeframe to deliver within, they might have a promo tour they schedule, they may not agree with you. They may dictate a lot of things about you and your performance and your delivery that you may not like. Whereas as an independent, that's that creative control is all yours and that might be worth more to you than the fame and perceived success. There might be greater success for you. Your definition of success may not be defined just by fame and money. It might be defined by “I’m successful it I can do what I want when I want, how I want with who I want and have no one telling me what that is”. That to me is my definition of success, but it's also might be what the independent sector views as success. Partnering with who you choose to partner with collaborating with who you choose to collaborate with.  We've even found that Kylie, for all her years of being signed to big things released her last album as an independent. So that's that tells you something, doesn't it.  And look, the discovery of A&R is like, you can push your music up, but I think there's nothing more exciting than if a label discovers you

Chelsea:  Can you tell me what are some of the best and worst parts are of your role?

Maria: Well, quite frankly, I didn’t really want to have all these challenges this year, but I actually love them. I actually do like the challenge. I'm a bit hyperventilating cause I've got an event in four weeks and I'm hoping it all goes well. But then when I have those moments, I tell myself, “I can only do my best, I've got my to do list, I can hit it off, I can put in 10 hours a day and chop, chop, chop, and I can only do my best”. I have a contingency plan if something screws up and keep going, and as long as I know I've done my best, I can't beat myself up, move on to the next thing. And if things don't always go a hundred percent to plan, you learn from them and you improve next time. So that's how I choose to look at because, what are you gonna do? Dig a hole and throw yourself in there? No, you can only do your best, but sitting around isn't the answer either. You need to be actually working towards having a plan and going for it.

Chelsea: And what do you think the best parts are of your role? What do you enjoy the most?

Maria: I actually love the days when I sit and do the books.  It connects me to my very first days on the job because I am the CFO for AIR as well. I love that. I love negotiating the sponsors. I love working on events. Working on policies. Absolutely everything about my job, I can't fault it. And in fact, in my entire life, there was only ever one job that I didn't enjoy.  I can't even say I hated it. I just didn't enjoy it because I was the first female accountant and the other five ladies in the department were secretaries or admin staff, and on my very first day there, I said, “Okay, where are we going for lunch?” and they said “Us men have lunch in the cafeteria. You ladies have a little room upstairs in the ladies room”. And I said “I'm sorry. I’ve never eaten in the toilet in my entire life. I'm not about to start today”. And I went and joined the men in the cafeteria and I swear, they looked at me like I had three heads and five ankles or something.  It was just a very uncomfortable situation, but I was just like, “Wow. Is this still happening?” It was like a scene from Madmen. But I still enjoyed the job,  because I was a cost accountant and I was given and I was an assistant account. I was still studying at the time and they given me this opportunity, but I just didn't like that part of it.  I didn't like the part that I was white color and I couldn't talk to blue collar. But I still enjoyed the job, it was just a bit rigid. Like I had to have my breaks at 10. I'd never had a break. I just keep going and stop to eat. I had the pencil removed “You have to have your compulsory 10 minute break” and it's like, “Oh my God”. I don't think I was bred for large corporate conglomerates. I'm more suited to small, to medium sized businesses, but that's just person preference.

Chelsea:  And what do you think the biggest successes of your career, like the big wins? And did you celebrate the wins or was it like “that's done, onto the next thing”?

Maria:  Yes. Well, you work so hard to achieve a goal, and then it might sound strange. There's an anticlimax after you've hit that high, and you sort of regroup and you go away, and you go “Now what? What's next?”

Because I'm a forensic account, one of my main successes is turning businesses around that are in trouble. MIFF was one when I started, AIR was one. That to me is personal, extra joy, because it would be a shame to see these wonderful entities or ideas get lost. And not that one person does it alone, but sometimes if the numbers are infected, it's due to other things other than good money management, you know, culture, leadership, all sorts of things. So I love that, I've loved this, I loved having it loved my business, all the clients that I had.  Fond, fond memories of my first jobs.  Really lucky, really blessed to have great men believing in me and giving me opportunities.

Chelsea: But you worked very hard to get those.

Maria: I did, but still there are people that work hard their whole life, and they don't have leaders who recognise effort and reward it and encourage it.  I was getting promoted every six months at Ultimate. I was being moved into another area of the accounting division and they send me to university. I mean, that's a debt I'll never pay. If it wasn’t for them, I probably would never have gone. I would have stuck to the upbringing and thought “where’s the next husband [laughing] and just stay home and expect him to bring him the bacon.  I just, I can't believe that that's the mindset! But that's what it was back then.

Chelsea: Has that been a real inspiration for you to set up the mentoring program and those kinds of initiatives?

Maria: Yeah, I can't take the credit for coming up with the ideas. Other people have done mentoring in Australia and great jobs at it. Bonnie from the VMDO was the brainchild of the Fast Track Fellowship. I’m honored to be part of it, together with the AAM.  Hopefully we can do that again when travel opportunities resume. But even connecting labels to opportunities that our global partners bring discounted tickets to trade fairs in the days when we could travel. It really does feel like another lifetime ago, but it was only last year. This year is a completely different ball game. I'm hoping that after a vaccine is discovered that the world can return to what we used to call normal, you know, in the next year or so.

Chelsea:  Are there any changes that you hope to see in the music industry?

Maria: I strive to continuously improve. You can only build on an already great thing.  I'm really proud of the independent sector. I love it. I think that they should really be proud of themselves, doing it tough with limited resources and look at the success that they've achieved! We'll be celebrating that at the AIR awards! Everyone, no matter what industry you're in, in your life, working towards continuously improving as a person, as an entity can only bring rewards.

Chelsea: So many people say they struggle with time, time to do their creative projects, time with family, time to look after their health, so many things. You have such a massive role and a dual role. How do you find time to do all the things you do?

Maria: Well, I don't have a magic formula. I might to-do list is quite long. Haven't crossed everything off it. You just have to be vigilant with the schedule. I get up early, start my day early, and by 6pm, after I've done 10 hours, I get on with dinner and other aspects of work life balance. But I'm lucky. I suppose my son's 18. He's no longer a toddler, because I was juggling the single mum thing since he's four and a half. So that was a bit tougher for me in those days. And then having to drive in, be the CEO of MIFF attend all these nighttime things, worry about a babysitter, make sure I get to the childcare on time to pick him up before they close! Can't tell you the number of times I was late and they looked at me like I was the worst mother in the world because it was 6:05pm or 6:15pm and you are late again. And then taking the time, like when he was younger to make sure we have the annual holiday to connect with him, make sure he's good. Dinner time is our time talk, maybe not so much now because he’s an adult, but you know, trying to fit that in and just making sure that 80% of my day, I got to do everything I set out to do that day.  There's some days that didn't even happen at all, but the trick is “don't beat yourself up”. You can only do your best.  And sometimes you just need to have a cry and go “I'm overwhelmed and this is hard” and stuff, but even then I've given myself limits, like, unless there was really major life events that you take, you need help to get over it.  If it's just something like being overwhelmed, you give yourself the day to feel shit about it. And then the next day force yourself to go, “Right! Today's a new day. What are we doing different?” And move on to the next thing because otherwise you will just carry it over and you should sweat about the big things, not the small ones.  Like you didn't make your bed. My floor is not swept today. Big deal. Right? Who cares? I'll do it on the weekends when I've got a minute. Like, it doesn't matter in the broad scheme of things. What matters is that I'm fed, clothed, I have work, I feel positive, I've done something good for me today, whatever that is, even if it's just washing and styling, whatever it is for you, and don't sweat the small stuff. I think someone wrote a book about that once.

Chelsea:  There's also a book that I read last year, which I think is called ‘Drop the Ball’, about, it doesn't really matter that the dishes aren't done or you know, you can “drop a few balls”, it's about picking which ones to drop.

Maria: Yes! What are the important ones to hang on to? And the other ones don't matter. If that's going to stress you, if you're the type of person that seeing the floor all dirty is gonna stress you out and take five minutes, sweep it and come back to what you're going to do.  I know for myself, if I've got dishes on the sink that are not washed, that does my head in, so I have to wash them. I know I've got bigger fish to fry, but if I see those dishes on the sink, Oh!

Chelsea: I’m not so worried about the dishes, but I like a made the bed. I like to get up, make the bed. I feel like I've achieved something. You know that's the thing. My grandma said, “whenever you move house, the first thing you should unpack and set up is the bed”. So if you get tired with everything else, you can always go to bed and rest.  Everything can be crazy, but I can go in my bedroom and it's the beds made and it looks relaxing.

Maria: Whatever it is that centers you. Because sometimes thinking about a problem, can actually chew up more energy than solving it. Just sort it out and then you don't have to think about it anymore. Well, that's, that's what I reckon anyway.

Chelsea: So what advice do you have for, um, younger women that might want to follow in your footsteps into a senior leadership role?

Maria:  Do the hard yards. Have a “can do” enthusiastic attitude. Use your initiative. Let people know that that's your aspiration. Cause if they don't know they can't help you.

Ask them for help. Ask if they’ll mentor you. Ask “What do I need to learn and improve on? Be honest, tell me frankly, I won't get offended. What parts of my personality or performance do I need to improve on to get closer towards my goal?”  And people will be happy to tell you if you put the disclaimer up that you're not going to get offended because some people, sometimes even I, am a bit worried about telling people what I think if they ask, cause it's awkward. But if they say “I'm not going to get offended, just tell me how you think you think I could improve”.  I did that to my bosses all the time when I was younger, cause I was constantly wanting to know that I was on the right path, that I was going to get there, that they were happy with my work. “Do you want it done this way? How else would you like it presented?  Can I present it to you in any other way? What sort of information do you need” And then go away and think of a solution and then come back and then they know that you've thought about it, and then you've used some sort of initiative to streamline something, or to save something, or to improve something, you know?

But fundamentally you've got to do what you love. That's my life motto. You’ll always have enough money to pay the bills. So pay the bills doing something you love, if you can. And if you need, have the backup plan.  Just to go back, (to make it look like it wasn't a complete fairy tale) when I started my business, I had three jobs.  I got up at 5am, worked for two hours in a chicken factory doing the accounting. Then I did a day job. Then I worked at night from seven to midnight. I did that for a whole year. To get myself up and underway.  So they're the sacrifices. There was no one who just waved a magic wand and when “bingo. Here you go. You're now this!”  It was a journey, a long one, a good 35-year journey. Cause that's how long it's been. And I’m not done yet!