Episode 11: Lilly Schwartz

CREDITS: Produced and edited by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT:

Hi and welcome to Control the podcast where we speak to game changers, change makers, artist and leaders in the music industry. I’m your host Chelsea Wilson and in this episode, I’m chatting to an incredible Program Director and friend of mine Lilly Schwartz.

A trained concert pianist, Lilly shares with us her journey from classical academia to jazz. After graduating with a Masters of Musicology and a Bachelor of Music in Piano performance she moved to the other side of the stage as Program Manager for the Kimmel Centre for the Performing Arts and then as Director of the Popular Program for the Minnesota Orchestra in Minneapolis. She then moved to the West Coast, taking on a new role as Director of Programming at SF Jazz in San Francisco. Joining our virtual podcast studio from across the pacific, I asked Lilly about her beginnings as a classical pianist, her experience working with orchestras, the SF Jazz response to the COVID 19 pandemic and so much more. This is Lilly Schwartz, in Control.

Chelsea: Hi, Lilly. Welcome to the podcast.

Lilly: Hello, Chelsea. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Chelsea: How are you going during this crazy time? What's life like in San Fran right now?

Lilly: Well, I'm going to start with the positive. It's beautiful out and you know, everybody's out jogging, biking, walking, so we're very lucky we have such beautiful weather and a temperate place to you know, survive this situation. Um, and people here are very good about wearing masks and such. So that part is great and our numbers are really low down for the rep compared to the rest of America. But it's been tough. I mean, you know, basically all culture stopped. Restaurants are closed. Um, You know, you don't get to see your people, um, and live music is virtually virtual. So it's been, um, it's challenging. I think it's challenging for everybody and maybe most particularly the artists, because they can't do what they love to do. And those of us who put them on stages, can't do what we do.

Chelsea: I really want to chat to you about how SF jazz has responded to the pandemic. But before we get to that, I'd really like to, if we can go back in your career a little bit and talk about how you came to your current role at SF Jazz. I know you have a Bachelor of Music in Piano Performance, and a master's in piano and musicology. What was that time like for you?

Lilly: So I started piano when I was about eight years old. And, um, by the time I got to high school, I was kind of serious about it and ended up going to Interlochen Arts Academy in Michigan, which is a pretty serious art school for high school kids. Um, and then by the time I graduated college, I realized I didn't want to be a pianist. Um, I started getting stage fright, which I never had had when I was younger. But I knew I had like music was my passion. So I thought, well, perhaps I should a professor, which is why I got a degree in musicology. And then I realized, I don't think I want to do that either. I want to do something, more lively and interact more with people.

I want to be more of a muse, you know? And, um, so I just developed becoming a producer and someone who worked with artists to put them on stage and manage their careers and that sort of thing. But I love, I mean, I, music is definitely it's becomes a lifestyle. As you know, it's not just a job you do. It's not like going to a bank and being a teller and then you go home it's it really is a lifestyle. It's like you invite your family and your significant others to shows, and that you share that part of your life with everybody in your life. Um, but being a pianist to me was lonely. It was six hours of practicing a day by yourself. Um, and then the stage fright thing. So the actual being on stage. Definitely not my daily wick. And that's something that I love.

Chelsea: I feel like there's so much to unpack in that, you know, when you were going through this realization that the stage fright was kind of crippling. Did, was there any support available for you to coach you through that? Did anybody try and offer you any sort of strategies of how to overcome that?

Lilly: It's so funny. You asked that because the answer is an absolute, no people were just like, get over it. Like my teacher at the time, I'll never forget my senior recital in college. I missed like a B flat in a Beethoven Sonata. And she came back at the intermission of my recital and didn't say, nice interpretation or beautiful, she's like, how did you miss that B flat. That was, that was the response. So I think now people are maybe gentler in this with the further generations down, but in my generation it was like, if you're not perfect, forget about it.

And so when you get that kind of in your head, it becomes a frightening thing to be on stage. It's no longer a joy. And the other thing was that I was. That I was very classical. I was always playing classical music and it's ironic that now I'm in jazz because I find that, you know, it's just so much more free and people aren't, the, the attitude is very different about it, about music and about playing and you're improvising and you're responding.

And my favorite part of playing piano was actually playing chamber music because I loved playing with other people. And I loved the feel of music around you. Um, and I was much less frightened doing that. Like it took the fright away. Cause you also have used it on the stand, right when you're playing chamber music, but you you're responding to people.

You're, it's an interaction much like jazz. So, but the answer is your original question. No, there really wasn't any kind of, I mean, I guess I could gone to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but it didn't occur to me, at you know, 17, 18 years old that that was something. That one could do, and nobody advised me as such.

So no, and also back then, they didn't really have drugs. Like now they have beta blockers people take, they have that, wasn't something that was offered to me.

Chelsea: Yeah, but I, I feel like the problem isn't you, your, you weren't the problem. I think the problem is the culture and the environment and the stress placed on the artist it seems like this impossible framework that you're supposed to memorize and play absolutely perfectly a piece and if you miss that one note that B flat, you feel terror and shame and fear of failure.

Lilly: Exactly. It's so funny. The word shame. Yes, you do you feel like. Oh boy, and then you can't get that B flat out of your head to, to continue your performance.

You know what I mean? So you're you for the rest of that piece? You're like, oh my God, I missed that B flat, even though you continue playing and you know, but it's true. And there is a shame with it. I think that's a really good word for it.

Chelsea: I think it's just a really sad, you know, reality and reason to stop playing, which obviously is you're talented at piano and had that love for it and spent those hours and then this system around the genre is so oppressive that it, it can break people. I hope that there's been some development in that genre. And I hope that you can rediscover your love for piano at some point, and maybe yeah playing some jazz and playing in a band might be more your genre.

Lilly: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's true. Yeah. I mean, in college I played in some Latin bands and I played in some rock and roll bands and it was just much more fun and free. And. I didn't feel that stifling feeling, but then the other thing about, you know, when you do get to a certain level of being a musician or an athlete, unless you've practiced those six hours, you're never going to be there anymore right?   So like, for me, like I could probably sit down and play a Mozart Sonata still, but it wouldn't sound like it did, you know? And so then you kind of judge yourself still.

Chelsea: It's interesting because I don't think that Mozart or Beethoven or any of those cats really intended for the culture around their compositions to be like that. Cause they were improvisers, didn't they used to push out Mozart's piano out in the street when he was nine and he used to just improvise and play. If that was now, he'd be a YouTube star. He'd be like Jacob Collier or someone, and someone would come along and give them a record deal. But back then there wasn't a recording so instead they said, Hey, Mozart, that's some pretty cool stuff. Why don't you write it down? And now we're all obsessed with playing it exactly. As the sheet music says. I just question, if that was the intention of the music originally, I think they wanted to break barriers and they were quite jazz in that mindset.

Lilly: I think that's a very, an excellent point. And you know, the classical world is one of perfection, you know, and you hear my story is not unusual at all. I'll be honest with you. I mean, so many people like people that have studied violin, their whole careers and dah, dah, dah, and then they try to audition for an orchestra. You know, they miss a couple of notes and that's it. Your audition is over, you know, and do they have the will to continue auditioning and continue? You know, it's, it's, I guess it's a lot like actors too. Like you, you have to be okay with rejection and failure. And the one thing I will say about that, that I appreciate about the experience of doing what I did, which was learning piano and, you know, having that discipline is I have that discipline in my life and that's never left me. And I also take criticism pretty well because, you just kind of learned from such a young age that you have to divorce the criticism from emotion. Um, most, you know, if it's, if it's constructive if it's truly constructive criticism.

So there are things that I learned from it and that have literally kind of guided me through my life. So I don't feel like the time I played piano or, you know, spend all those hours. And did that was a waste at all because. So many good things came from it. And my career ultimately came from it because I have an ear. I have a passion and that never left.

Chelsea: Do you think being a musician makes for better program directors and arts administrators? What do you think those skills are? That musicians have that, that make us excel?  

Lilly:  Yeah, no, it's true. I actually do, because I think that, um, we have that compassion and that understanding of what it is to be an artist.

I'll give you an example from last week, we just started doing live streams from SF jazz. And the rule in San Francisco is when there could only be one person in the hall unmasked, and we want these live streams to be unmasked, right? So we had a pianist and he was really nervous. I think there, there was the added nerve of having to be in the hall by himself.

Nobody can be in there, not a production person. Nobody can be in there and he hadn't played in eight months and he's going to be there and he's talking to the camera and he's, he's going to hold the 60 minutes. But, you know, I knew how to handle him and I knew how to calm him down. And because I understand that anxiety. So in that regard, I think, yes, being a musician and working with musicians, you have that, you know, you feel what they're feeling, you understand what they need, you know, you understand, Oh, you need that coffee right before you walk on. Or I remember I had Maya Angelo when she was still living and, um, she had to have, like, it was like a little shot of Brandy before she walked on stage. And that was, it was not a question and people didn't understand that. Like why that's her thing? That's just her thing. And I think as a musician, you get that, that people have their quirks and their rituals and it's okay. And you, and you have to, you know, give that to them. And then also knowing, you know, being a musician and being a programming director, you know how to arc a season, you know how to bring in different genres of music that makes sense and how to pair artists and how to suggest things to people that wouldn't, they wouldn't necessarily have thought of, like, you know, to Chucho Valdez with Diane Reeves. Well, now they've had so much fun doing it they've started touring together, but you know, that was just a suggestion. Um, that we came up with, I talked to Roseanne cash one day and I was like, why don't you ever do the music of your father? And she said, Oh no, I'll never, never do that. And three months later, she's back playing concerts. And she goes, well, you never going to believe this. I want to do the music of my dad and I want to do it with Ry Cooder. And I was like, okay, let's make it happen. You know? So I think it's, there's that just empathy and that understanding of. What they need and how to program, you know, that makes sense. And also what brings in different audiences, how do you bring in the youth? How do you bring in diversity? You know, all of that I think is helpful coming from a place of music. And also, and also the last one I'd say is that, you know how to find new talent because you hear someone and you're like, oh my god, that person's amazing. And you know, you could say, I'd love to have you do a concert and help them build their career, which is one of the most rewarding parts of our job, you know.

Chelsea: Can you tell us about your time at the Kimmel center as Program Manager? So you were part of the opening of the center, is that right? What was your vision for the space and how did you, how did you achieve it?

Lilly: So I was brought in when, it was literally a hole in the ground, um, which is really interesting and I'll never forget my interview there one of the head lawyers interviewed me and she goes, well, how do you feel about taking a position that has no definition? And we can't really tell you exactly what you'll be doing. And I said, I call that opportunity because you get to build something. Right? So my very first job there was actually rental manager. I was supposed to rent the space that had not been built. And I was like, that's really fun, you know, and all I had were like drawings.

So I went to different artists than I got permission to use their photos and whatnot. And I just made up this whole thing of what the space would, how it would be used and what you could use it for as a renter. and then of course I want it to be, I want it to be doing programming, so that's what I morphed into.

But you know, the Kimmel centers of gorgeous, gorgeous building, and it's huge. And the there's a 2,500 seat hall that shaped like a cello. And then there's a 600 seat hall. That's very malleable. It can be the standing room. It can be seated. Unfortunately it hasn't done well.  I think it's just not been supported well and not been directed well, but, um, it was really fun to be a part of something that was opening. And I'd never done that before to open a building, which is it's kind of exhausting, but it was really cool. And so we had big openings. We had Elton John to do one of the openings, which was like incredible to see Elton John in this 2,500 seat hall. And he's such a sweet man. He's like a truly sweet person, you know, and he was supposed to play his, his, um, song list. And he was having so much fun. We flew his piano over. I mean, somebody sponsored all this, of course, but they flew his piano over and he gave us a song list. And then you just totally started doing whatever you wanted started playing Philadelphia Freedom when it wasn't supposed to be played. And it was hilarious.

And I was like, oh my God, what do we do? What do we do? Um, but it all worked out great. And then we had two weeks of festival of like all these different kinds of genres. And the fun thing about the Kimmel center was we did everything, you know, we did classical and world music and jazz and comedians and, you know, acting stuff that, you know, like theatrical that really, not really shows that theatrical productions, um, like Cirque Du Soleil type stuff. So it had the ability to really do anything in there. Um, it was a great experience that I actually call that my graduate degree because I got a graduate degree, but that was really my graduate degree because I really learned how to program. How to work with artists, how to program for different spaces and understand what your audiences, you know, as a programming director, you know, you have to know who your audience is. You have to be able to book shows that will be fiscally responsible, as well as, you know, something that makes sense. Something that's deeper, something that, you know, resonates with people. Um, and so that was, that's where I learned how to do that actually.

Chelsea: You then moved to a role as director of popular programs for the Minneapolis orchestra

Lilly: Minnesota

Chelsea: Sorry.

Lilly: It is in Minneapolis. So people get confused.

Chelsea: Okay. So that's the confusion. So it's popular programs for the Minnesota orchestra based in Minneapolis, right? Um, can we talk about elitist in the classical music world?

Lilly: Oh boy

Chelsea: I know a lot of classical diehards kind of detest the pops program yet often the pops program is what brings income in that sustains orchestras. Did you experience a lot of resistance in the community around the program that you were working with?

Lilly: I did not experience resistance in the community. I experienced resistance from the musicians. And, uh, and, and in a very ugly way, um, there were 90 musicians in the Minnesota orchestra, and I will say that I was there seven and a half years, and none of them were my friends. And the only way I could do my job was to be professionally friendly with them, but not friends with them because they, they were very opposed, they just wanted to play Prokovief and Tchaikovsky and whatever. And they really did not have open minds to doing anything else. If we brought Ben Folds in or Rosanne cash, they would, they were angrier or Chris Botti, or, um, I worked with the, this wonderful conductor there, Sarah Hicks and we started creating shows, you know, based on like Parisian music or Italian music or so we did a space show, we did lots of different shows and an 80’s show, all of eighties music. And they just, you know, were resentful of all of it. And the good thing was that when I came there, they were doing three nights of the same show, and it was a 2,500 seat hall as well. And they were selling a thousand, 1500 seats a night.

And I said, well, let's change how we program it and do like Friday night is, you know, kinda more hip, Saturday nights were date night and Sundays you keep your older audience and make it make the matinees, you know, older and family. And we started selling everything out and, you know started making a ton of money.

So why the community wasn't opposed to it was because it started really funding the orchestra, the orchestra somehow never really cottoned onto that. I don't know. It's just a sense of entitlement, I think with musicians sometimes. But it started flourishing and the community loved it because they knew Friday night was like the hip date night, you know, bring your girlfriend or your wife and it's going to be like a Pink Martini, it's going to be really fun Saturday night, you know, it's going to be something completely different and Sunday's going to be maybe a Cirque du Soleil show you know something more accessible too younger audience or children and older audiences. Um, so yeah, it was, it was challenging though. I will say it was very challenging and they also didn't want to ever do anything different. So I started jazz program there, for example, and people were just very, very resistant to it. We started a commissioning thing with jazz artists and again, they were very resistant.

So I did not enjoy working there from the sense of working with those particular musicians because of their uptightness in, they were union right? So they have these rights. So I could never even, yeah. And I was not union so they, they could get away with very bad behavior. Um, and I could not. So I always had to be very gracious, but for example, I had artists storm off the stage during rehearsal when you know that you're trying to balance the sound. And they're to them. It's too loud. They were, I called them delicate flowers, cause everything was too much for them. They couldn't handle it. I swear to God and they would, they were allowed to bow out of their services if they felt something was amiss. And so it was just frustrating, you know? And when we started doing, producing our own shows, if we went into overtime again, they're allowed to leave the stage and half the orchestra would leave the stage before we'd finished the rehearsal. That was the attitude and that attitude was allowed. And it just infuriated me.

So I was almost a little PTSD when I left there. I was like, I will never work in another orchestra again ever, because it was just not a good experience. But the community embraced it, the community loved it. They loved the jazz part. They liked the diverse programming. Um, I mean, if you had an artist that could sell three nights sure, book it for three nights, but you want to be able to be sure that you're at least going to sell 2000 of the 2,500 seats. That's what again, talking about balancing the fiscal with, you know, the product. Um, so yeah, it was, that was another really interesting experience, but, um, I would never to this day work for a union orchestra because it just was not a good experience and, you know, I've been told that they, those musicians are not happy because they're told when to be where at a certain time, what to wear, what they're going to play. They don't have a lot of say. But they also work, you know, not 45, 50 hour weeks. They've worked 20 hours typically and they'd get to do chamber music on the side and they get to teach and they get to do, you know, control that part of everything they're doing.

Chelsea: And they're on a salary which is not the norm for musicians.

Lilly: They’re on a very nice salary and it’s a privilege. Yeah, I think, I think so.

Chelsea: Did you try and have kind of group conversations or consultations to try and break down those barriers and include them?

Lilly: Absolutely all the time, I formed an artistic committee and I would listen to what they wanted to do and, you know, tried really hard to work with them, but it was very, it was very challenging to work and I love musicians. So for me to say something at all negative about musicians, that means it really wasn't bad because I mean, I admired all of them as players.

They were, they are one of the top 10 orchestras in this country. They're really, really good. Their level is amazing. Um, their music director, Osmo Vänskä is terrific. Their pops, conductors, Sarah Hicks. Terrific. Like everything about them, the level is amazing but it's the attitude that was not amazing.

Chelsea: So currently you're the director of programming at SF jazz, which is premier home of jazz in San Francisco. Can you tell us how you approach putting the program together?

Lilly: Yeah, so Minnesota actually went on strike and they were, they stayed on, well, it was a lockout for about a year and a half, and I was there for probably nine months of that time, trying to find another job.

And at the time I started dating a guy in San Francisco and it didn't work out with the guy, but I did fall in love with San Francisco and I decided, oh my God, I have to be in San Francisco. So I started looking really specifically for jobs out here.  There was this great job at Stanford, um, that I was a finalist for.

And it turns out the woman at SF Jazz got that job. And so before SF Jazz, even advertised or knew she was leaving. I had sent my resume and said, I'd love to help in the programming, blah, blah, blah. And the person who was recruiting at the time said, you're way over qualified for what we need right now but you know, your, your resume is terrific. And then like three days later, she calls you back. You're not going to believe it. This job opened. I was like, really? I of course knew I had the insights, right? Anyway. So what attracted me to SF jazz specifically is the way that Randall Klein, the, the, um, founder and executive director had been programming and we still do, which is he curates, we curate every week we do. So, whereas like in Minnesota, I was more of a patchwork quilt, you know, I would curate to the week of what my themes were whatever, but I wouldn't curate. Um, in such a like intellectual way. So we have, uh, three product lines basically for SF jazz. We do 450 shows now, when I started there, we were doing 150, so I really grew it a lot. Um, and that was not just me. That was also because we have a building now. They had opened their building in January of 2013 and I came, uh, that December and. Again, how they with the programming, like Pulse is, is Thursday through Sunday in Miner um, three weeks out of a month. And every single one of those weeks is curated. So it could be that it's all, you know, piano, trios, or it could be that it's Latin and Cuban. It's the music of Cuba. Or again, it can be one artist. If the artist is an artist that could sell that week, like a Pink martini or Chris Botti or a Chucho Valdez. Um, but it's all very thoughtful.

And so that's kind of how it was programmed anyway, which was, you know, thinking about who your audiences are, who do you want to bring into the building? How do you want to represent the organization? Like what kinds of music do you want out there? And what I loved about SF Jazz also is that the definition of jazz is anything that has been inspired by jazz or inspires jazz. So like a Kendrick Lamar could play there. You know, Kamasi Washington, that type of thing that is a little more, maybe esoteric are out there, Roseanne cash she's Americana, but that's influenced, you know, that's a singer song writer. That's old. Well, like soul music, you know, um, Taj Mahal, those types of people, all so that, that your pallet of who you can bring is huge.

And so that makes it really fun. So our season is September through may like a school year, and then we do a 10 day festival in June. And then, um, six weeks of programming in what we call summer sessions. And the only time that it's more patchwork-quilty is in the festival, which I also love programming cause it's really fun. It's like, Oh my God, we need a dance party this night and we need this. And you know, and you just mix it up like, like a real festival that you'd go to anywhere in the world. Stonnington, you know, New Orleans jazz festival, all they're all like that. They're like the ideas that you're bringing everybody in, you know, and you're really just like throwing confetti in the air and making it a really fun time.

So that's the only time we don't program in the sense of this curation. Even our summer sessions, we look at it as the “Great America’s” songbook, which means South America, central America, you know, all of the Americas. Um, and we booked within that, those genres for those six weeks. So it's just, it's very thoughtful. And this is Randall. This is not me, but I loved I jumped into to it because it, it. Like suits my temperament to be thoughtful about how you program and you know, and it makes it fun. And we also have resident artistic directors every year. So we have four to five of them and they get to curate their own weeks and work with us. And we commission them if we can, we apply for grants. We do, you know, we go out above and beyond and I consider them like the ambassadors for SF Jazz. Like they're the face of SF Jazz.

Chelsea: How do you know when an artist is ready for a show at SF Jazz?

Lilly: That's a good question. Um, so you know, a big part of our mission is also working with a lot of local artists. And so you, sometimes you take a chance. I mean, a lot of times you take a chance on artists that whether they're not from here or from here and you try them, the nice thing about SF Jazz is we have a small room and we have a room that holds 120. So, and they do two shows in the night. So basically they're selling, you know, the ability to sell 240 tickets. But I don't think, you know, until they've proven themselves in the market. So either you make, you decide, well, they need to play a different venue or a few different venues and see how they do in those and then we'll take a chance on them or you just say, heck with it, I love this person, I really want to give them an opportunity and you do it, you know? And I think that's with everything, you can't have a break, unless you give someone a break, right. So I think sometimes, and it's hit or miss sometimes like sometimes you think someone's going to do, if they're gonna do okay and they like kill it. Um, but the fun thing at SF Jazz is because we have this small room, we can grow them so we can put them in there for a night. And then if they do really well, you put them in there for two nights. And then, you know, once they've sold two or three nights out in there, you put them in a big room and you give them a night in the big room.  And we've done that with a lot of artists. Like Veronica Swift is one of them. Started her out. You know, she was very young. She was really not known and she's her as her career's grown. She's also blossomed at SF jazz. So that's fun. It's fun to watch that.

Chelsea: That's a beautiful way to champion and support artists in their development. I've been really impressed to see how SF jazz has responded to the COVID pandemic, moving to the digital space. What's that experience been like for you? Because it's completely different environment, from working, you know, producing live shows.

Lilly: Yeah, it's crazy. So, um, one of the last days we were in the office, I said to Randall my boss, I was like, you know, if we ended up staying home for a long time, I think we should start a happy hour. I called it a happy hour. You know, me, Chelsea I'm a little wild child. Um, I called it a happy hour series and I was like, we should do it Fridays at five. When people are going to be sick of working and they're going to want a break, but it'll keep people connected to us. They didn't take my happy RNA, but they called it. They named it Fridays at five, which is actually a better name. Um, but we have, you know, like 700 shows in our archives because we basically, if an artist allows us to, we do archival recordings and we have like eight cameras in the hall. So they're very professionally done and we do, you know, multi-track audio recordings of them for most of them. And so it was very easy to migrate that. And that's how, that's how we started pretty much like within two weeks of having shelter in place happen and we just started programming them and I kind of viewed it the same way, like let's pick some of the best ones and we have 700 of these archive shows.

So we've got such a big choice, but the interesting part was selling it to the artists because they didn't quite understand. And we don't just take a show and put it on. We it's one hour it's 60 minutes. So you take that two hour show or whatever it was. And we work with them to say, we send them the show and say, what are your favorite tracks? Send us the set list you want. And then our engineers work on it. So they bring it to a really good level. Um, and then there's a chat, a live chat that the artists get into so the artists are talking to the people that are watching it, and there's a tip jar and it's been so crazily successful. We've one week we made $40,000 in the tip jar.

Our typical is about $10k to $20k, but what it means is the artist gets real money. So we split the money 50/50 with the artists. Um, it's a real payday for them. Sometimes it's more than they made in the original gig, which is kinda crazy.

Chelsea: that's incredible

Lilly: but so that's how we, that was our first response to it. And now we, this month actually, um, have started. Putting up, uh, doing paid, like what they call pay-per-view kind of thing. It's $10 a show and they're full shows. Um, and we've started doing the live stream that we started that actually last Wednesday with the great pianist named Benny Green. we're going to do one live stream a month.

The next month is Zakir Hussain the following month is, uh, some, a local couple that's. So the other thing, the other caveat to our SF um, only having one person in the hall unmasked is if you're partners, you can be in the hall. So there's this wonderful singer and Lovie Smith and her husband is the pianist and also a B3 player, Chris Siebert.

And they're going to do holiday show for us, um, because they can be in the same room. So, you know, so we're, we're trying, you know, and it's a challenge. We just did an opera this week, champion that we have produced with opera parallel. Um, and it didn't do great and only had like 150 viewers. Most of our Fridays at five, we have anywhere from two to 3000 people watching and actually from all over the world, Chelsea, which is so interesting you know, the time thing is, is a problem. Like, cause it's what would it be for you guys? 5:00 PM. Seven hours earlier.

Chelsea: 11 in the morning

 Lilly: Yeah. So, I guess if you brunch for you guys yeah.

Chelsea: Jazz brunch! So you think you'll keep the digital side of things going when we start, you know, re-emerging into live spaces.

Lilly: Yeah. We've been talking about that a lot. So, you know, my feeling is that, look, we went from a $19 million company to an $11 million company in a month because 70% of our income is ticket sales. So how business is going to happen, I think is going to be very different. And I've been talking with agents and managers about this a lot. Like it's not going to be a guaranteed fee. Or if it is, it's going to be a smaller fee and it's going to be a split.

Um, and maybe part of that is, we've also talked about how even how we do live concerts differently. Particularly as in the first year of coming out of this, if we're not allowed to have that say a hundred percent of the audience there, doing two shorter shows in Miner  you know, and having time to clean the hall and do all of that in between and then live streaming one of the shows. So that there's that audience that could also watch the show. So we're thinking about all kinds of things, but yes, the digital stuff that we're doing now was actually in process of being developed, which is why we could kind of so easily move to it.

Chelsea: really clever forward thinking.

Lilly: Yeah. And, but that was, that was my boss and, and some other folks that have really been focusing on, well, he called Diana the “digital initiatives of the center”. Um, and the idea was to get members from all over the world. You know, so that our, what we're doing in San Francisco could be viewed by people all over the world.

So I definitely believe that it will continue. You know, I don't know how yet we're, we're literally, we're calling it beta testing this month, of these different things we're putting up to see if people buy them, how they respond to them. Do they enjoy them? Um, so I think the next few months will be very much a beta test.

Chelsea: In terms of the jazz, it does have a reputation for being very male dominated. I know when we met last year at New York Jazz Congress, there was a few panels about intersectionality and women in jazz. Do you think anything's changed since then? And what do you think venues can do to kind of support a more balanced jazz genre?

Lilly: That's a great question. Um, I think it's a huge challenge and I think it continues to be a huge challenge. You see it in like at our high school, all stars band, we really try to recruit women specifically. I think it's getting a little bit better. I think with people like Terry Lynn, Carrington, I don't know if you're, do you know who she is?

Drummer? Yes. Terrific. She's getting the NDA jazz masters award this year and she's super young to get it. Like, I don't even think she's 60. Um, but she's really amazing. And so she has really been like an advocate for recruiting women, teaching young musicians, you know, get and getting young women to play jazz.

But I do think it remains a challenge because it historically it has been very male dominated and women typically were singers, you know, not saxophone players or pianists or so I think it might be slowly moving, but I'd say it's probably going to be another generation before that really shifts. I mean, there's people like Tia Fuller who plays saxophone who is out there. You know, there are people out there, but it still feels rather male dominated. It's funny when I'm programming now, the Fridays at five concerts, I try each month to at least have a female, at least one female a month. Because it's like, let's showcase them, you know, maybe two months sometimes, you know, but it is a challenge because we don't have of the 750 shows, there's many more that are male, you know, dominated shows.  So, um, how are you guys doing that in Australia?

Chelsea: Personally. I think that, you know, we need to sort of multi-pronged. Attack, you know, and, and the education sector definitely has a lot of work to do in that space, but it's also about changing the mindset of musicians because ultimately musicians hire the other musicians. So as programmers, yes we can try and be proactive in hiring a balance. But if there's only, you know, if there's a hundred jazz acts to choose from, and only five of them have women in them, well, we don't really have a lot of options so it means that our programming can't be 50/50 because there just isn't 50/50. So that kind of quota, it's sort of impossible for us to reach. And there's a lot of, you know, a lot of criticism to festival programmers and venue programmers as well for not having a lot of, you know, female artists. But if there isn't female artists choose from, it makes it extremely difficult.

So from a cultural perspective, I kind of ask, well, why aren't band leaders, hiring women in their bands. So that's something that, that needs to be addressed as well. A lot of women, uh, I think don't get the same opportunities, they might not necessarily be as gig fit if you're not playing all the time, as you said before, you don't have that muscle memory. So when you finally do get an opportunity, you might not be as great of an artist, but you need those opportunities to keep on getting better. We don't get better if we don't get the opportunities. So it takes people to see in you that you have potential and then continue booking you and that's what men do for younger men. They go, that kid there he's got potential and so he might be 16, 17, and they keep booking him. But we need that sort of similar approach to female artists. Even if they're a lot older, you can't kind of go 30-year old woman. She should be this level already. She might not have had the same kind of opportunities or support along the way. So I think, yeah, it's a responsibility of the musicians, also the education sector and also the industry. Um, it's gotta be a collective kind of push.

Lilly: I agree with that completely. And I think it really does start young. I mean, it's encouraging young women, young girls to pick up a flute, pick up a saxophone, play the drums, you know, sing, whatever appeals to you, but to move in that direction, like if you love jazz, don't be afraid to do it. Because you're a woman, you know

Chelsea: Yeah. Or there's a whole bunch of surveys that have come out. And one in particular that Music Victoria did a few years ago that highlighted that women have lack of confidence and that confidence is a main barrier to women participating in the music industry and particularly in the jazz world, because it's so heavily focused on improvisation. Some women are saying that's a hard thing to kind of improvise you’re quite vulnerable, whereas in the classical music world, and you have the sheet music in front of you, that's not as intimidating or, you know, there's these kinds of theories.  What are your thoughts on confidence and how did you get your confidence?

Lilly: It's a really good question too, you've got a good questions, Ms. Chelsea, that it's, I think it's a really valid question. Um, you know, I I'll start just with myself, which is, I sometimes still don't have confidence, you know, because I think that I never really had a mentor. I, I got into where I am, in the position I'm in, literally by crawling up and you know, having to prove yourself and prove yourself and prove yourself. And there were lots of guys that got promotions over me. I quit a job actually, because of that once. And I think you, you have to have chutzpah you have to have, you just have to have that, that gut, that feeling in your gut that maybe I don't feel a confidence, but it's like a fake it till you make it right?

We are totally equal to men. And there's no reason we shouldn't have the confidence, but it's not societally necessarily built into us. And I think you're right, that men often mentor men more than, you know, maybe women mentor women or men would mentor a woman or something like that. But, um, it's taken me a long time to have confidence and now it's like, I know what I'm doing. I'm good at it. I know I'm good at it. I love it. It's a passion. It's not just a thing I do. It's not something that, you know, I eat, breathe and sleep, sleep it, you know, it's like, it's, it's part of who I am. And it's, like I said earlier, it's something I bring my friends to, I bring my family to, I bring my partner to, you know, that kind of thing. It's, it's really, uh, intrinsically part of my life. But it takes a long time to get that confidence. And I hope now, like I try to mentor people in my position because I want other women and men you know, I don't say I only mentor women but I try and do both, but to feel that this is something they want to do and they can do and it's like carrying on the tradition and I see it in music. Like I see someone like Terry Lynn Carrington who mentors everybody, she touches, she's mentoring them. She's teaching them how to be strong, how to be confident. So I think it's starting to happen more. But I do think that again, it's because it's been such a male-dominated field, that to have confidence as a woman, you really have to have confidence like an Esperanza Spalding, you know, that she just knew I think, and I'm not speaking for her, this is not coming from her. This is just my observation, but she just had it, you know, she just had it like, she just got up and did it, and I don't know if she cared, what people thought. And so I think there's, there has to be some of that. It's like the fake it till you make it the, just do it, a attitude, the Nike just do it you know, you got to create your own confidence and it's not an easy thing to do. I'm not saying it's easy at all, but I think you just have to do it and you have to believe in yourself. And you have to have the passion. If you don't have the passion, don't do it because it's not easy. You know, it's not easy as a musician in particular. And even in our, or my part of it when you're both, you're a musician and a programmer, but like it's, it's not easy. And you, I, you know, you do fight the, even if I'm a woman I'm equal battle, you know,

Chelsea: SF Jazz is a signee of the, “we have voice “collective code of conduct. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Lilly: That came about from the hashtag #me too. You know, wanting to make sure that again, okay. Old school, jazz musicians, typically male weren't always the most respectful to women. Um, and, and I'm saying this in a very general way. So again, you know, again please take it as such. But they didn't, they just didn't necessarily curtail how they spoke or what they said, or, you know, sexual innuendos and this and that. And we had some staff members at SF Jazz who were very sensitive to that. And rightly so, you know, they don't need to be put in that position where it happens around them.

So we decided to come up with something and I believe we got that from another organization who had done it, um, and just kind of mutated it to be, to fit SF jazz. But it really, it came, literally came out of the hashtag #me too situation in the world. So that was what, three or four years ago. That it really came to light that we also need to react and we need to be responsible about this and make sure that we're protecting all the women that work there and actually anybody that works there, you know, that, that they aren't put in positions that are uncomfortable and audiences as well.

Chelsea: Absolutely. I mean, do you, do you think the code of conduct and the #me too movement has made a difference in the music industry more broadly?

Lilly: I don't know the answer to that. Honestly, I don't know that there's been enough time passed to know that, you know. I've, I've been lucky in my career. I feel like I mean, everybody has some of it everybody's been hit on everybody has some of that experience, but, um, I feel like most of the musicians I've worked with have been very respectful. And if you say, no, they respect that. Or if you say, you know, please don't speak that way. They might go in their dressing room and talk bad about you or make fun of you, but they will actually stop.

Um, and I think, you know, I'm not in the rock and roll business. I think the rock and roll business is probably harsher. Like the agents are harsher and you know, the world is like, it's just a bigger world and hundreds of thousands of people are attending and all that. And maybe that's, it hasn't changed as much there, maybe it's changed more radically there because of, you know, the fact that might've been worse before, um, I haven't really seen a huge difference in our industry, in our part of it. Um, but we also haven't been at work in eight months, so, you know, it's like that happened and it really, I don't know if there was a long enough time to see a transition.

Chelsea: In terms of the COVID pandemic and arts advocacy, what's the kind of us government support been like for musicians and venues.

Lilly: Okay. That's a good one too. So we, when it very first started in March, um, they have what they call the PPP plan was the payroll protection plan and you had to apply for it.

And it was specifically to be used for payroll and it had to be used within 60 or 90 days. I think it was, um, March April, may, June. I think it was six. It was, I can't remember if it was 60 or 90 days, but it really saved SF jazz because at this point now, of course, we've laid people off and had to furlough and everybody's taken pay cuts. Who do you need? Um, but it kept us whole, when things started, you know, we had our rainy-day fund that probably kept us well for the first month. And then we got the PPP plan that kept us full until July actually. Um, which a lot of places started laying people off almost immediately. So that was very, very helpful specifically to SF jazz.

and there's been some other government funding, um, specifically like grants that we've been given. They've said, you know, it was supposed to be used for doing a commission or doing this or that and they've said, no, you could use it for general funding. You can use it for your payroll, you can use it for keeping your building alive. You know, so that's been really helpful from these are more private foundations, like the Hewlett foundation, Mellon foundation. Um, but the government, they, you know, they keep talking about doing another payroll protection plan. It has not happened yet. Um, and I know that they did two rounds of them, but the second round you couldn't apply if you'd done the first round, I think this third round you'll probably be able to apply again. Um, but there hasn't been a ton of government support which is why a lot of restaurants are closing. It's not just us. It's, you know, small venues and small businesses. And that particular thing was for all of those small businesses venues, there've been a lot of groups that have come together, t here's a venue coalition that we're part of in San Francisco specifically. And they're, um, you know, working with government officials, um, and, you know, Or our state governor, Governor Newsom is talking about trying to do more, to help these places as well. But, you know, the reality is I think smaller venues will probably close or may close if they can't live through it, Um, they may emerge as something else. Um, but everybody's trying like every single organization is trying. I think governments are trying to, you know, I feel like everybody's trying, it's just i's a long process.

Chelsea: And how do you think the artists are going? Is there support available in the States in terms of mental health or financial support?

Lilly: Hey, that's a rough one too, because, uh, in terms of mental support, it's talked about, um, you know, there's suicide hotlines and things like that. But, um, I don't know if there's. Really there there's things online about how you get through it. Coping mechanisms. Um, you know, I have a friend, his psychiatrist, who's like, I hope it's terrible, but I'm more worried about the mental strain on the country and on people.

I think, you know, artists are kind of going one of two ways that mentally, like this is about the mental part of it is, um, they're either getting super creative and writing a lot of music and doing a lot of virtual things, um, or they're probably just, ah, withering and like, oh my god, what do I do? You know, kind of freezing because it's, it's, it's exhausting to not be able to do what you love, you know, for so long.

Um, financially people are getting unemployment, you know, SF Jazz  that one of our big missions has been to try and get money to artists, so we had to cancel the rest of our season and the summer, which we had already had on sale. So we asked her our ticket buyers to donate their tickets, and we got enough money that we could pay all the artists that we canceled 10% of their fee.

So we've been trying to do things in the tip jar and, you know, different things to support them. But, um, I think it's rough. I think people are trying virtual things with, you know, small price tags on them or doing things with Venmo accounts or, you know, tip jar kind of things. But there's not a lot, I'd say there's, there's granting companies and small government things you can get, but it's not a lot.

Chelsea: Yeah. It's tough. I really hope things. Things improve. I've only got one more question for you. I just wanted to ask things you've worked with so many incredibly high-profile artists. Have you had any moments where you've been genuinely star struck?

Lilly: Oh, yeah, a couple of times. Um, so meeting Yo-Yo Ma was star struck very much so, and he had just forgotten his cello and it is a famous story he forgot his cello in a cab in New York city. And then the cab driver have returned it to him. This is a multi-million dollar cello. It's a true story. So I thought I was really clever and I was like, ‘don't forget your cello’ and he gave me the dirtiest, look it. I was like, Oh my God, that was just like the dumbest moment, dumbest you know, you could do. And then I have one more funny one, which is, um, Elvis Costello was coming to perform with the Minnesota orchestra. And I have always been a fan of his really loved his music and his lyrics and everything. And I was super excited to meet him and he was bringing his own conductor. So our conductor, Sarah Hicks was not going to be, you know, conducting, but I was like, let's go have lunch, then we'll go you can come meet him with me. And I was super excited to meet him. Well, something hadn't come like one of the instruments he wanted or something hadn't arrived and he was kind of sick and tired and he was in a, he was really not in a good mood. And I was like, Mr. Costello welcome and the guy starts just going off on me like he was angry and there were all these musicians around. And I literally, my knees started shaking it. I was like, I gotta keep my cool, I gotta keep my cool, Oh and a piece of music hadn't come or something. So I was like, okay. And he goes, I should just leave. He was really angry. Like, I don't know why I'm going to play and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, how about you just start the rehearsal and I'll sort it out. And he goes, you think you're going to sort that out in five minutes, I go, ‘I'm a do my best I swear to God. Anyway, he goes on stage and he realizes, Oh my God, this orchestra is so good, literally so good. I, meanwhile go back to my desk. Like these are shaking. I'm like calling our library, like what happened? Get the paperwork we gotta, I gotta prove to them. It's not our fault. And then, you know, calling the personnel, like what happened with the instruments? She's like it wasn't on the list. I'm like, show me the paperwork. So it's proven it's not our fault. And um, so I go back at intermission of the rehearsal and I'm like Mr. Castello. And he goes, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And he walks around me like a full circle and he comes and he goes, I'd like to start again.

Hello. My name is Elvis Costello and I'm very pleased to be here. This orchestra is amazing. So it was cute in the end he was very sweet. We ended up taking him to sushi every night, but like, oh. And I was excited to meet him. And then, you know, so it happens. Occasionally everybody gets starstruck.

Yeah. Lilly, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It's so appreciated. Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun. It's great to see you.