Millie Millgate
In this episode we speak to music export specialist and music industry expert Millie Millgate.
Produced by Chelsea Wilson
Transcript by Natalie Burne
TRANSCRIPT
Chelsea
Hi, and welcome to control the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women working in the music and creative industries in control of their music and in control of their careers. I'm Chelsea Wilson, your host, and in this episode, I am speaking to executive producer of Sounds Australia and board director of Support Act Millie Millgate. A graduate of Harvard Business School, Millie has over 20 year’s experience in the music sector, working across artists management, programming and export events. She has held executive positions with both music New South Wales and the Association of artists managers. And since 2009, has represented the Australian music industry internationally as executive producer of sounds Australia. In this conversation, we talk about export events during the COVID 19 pandemic. What festival directors are really looking for, her experience as a venue Booker, her time as a Eurovision judge, and much more. This is Millie Millgate in control.
TRANSCRIPT:
Chelsea:
Millie Millgate Welcome to the control podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat with me.
Millie
Thanks for having me, Chelsea. Good to see you.
Chelsea
Good to see you too. It's been a while since I saw you last in Scotland feels like a million years ago.
Millie
But what a great event that was that was best practice. I think in terms of a showcase event like it was such a really well curated and focused. I've taken a lot of cues and ideas and still hoping to try and implement some of them in Australia to be honest,
Chelsea
yes, it was a really great example of a showcase. So big shout out to showcase Scotland and the visit. But I wanted to chat to you today about a number of things but kicking off as executive director for South Australia. You've overseen the marketing showcasing and networking activity for Australian artists in over 56 cities across 20 countries since 2009, which is incredible. Can you talk us through developing the export strategy for Australia? How do you go about choosing what international markets to focus on?
Millie
Absolutely. I mean, gosh, it's weird when you say it like that, particularly given we haven't been on a plane for two years. But it's constantly evolved, I think when I was first brought into the role, and when the role was created, it was all born out of a need. And just going way back in terms of why what was happening was the Australian Council for the Arts at the time were getting artists applying to them for touring grants for international pathways. And what they were starting to see was, more often than not the opportunity that people were wanting to go to was one of these showcasing events, so predominantly South by Southwest or the grand escape in the UK. So instead of you know, I think the criteria was you had to do three shows minimum, one of them would be south by and then they tack on a couple of other shows. So it was pretty, you know, very much trying to just get to that event. So I guess there were people within council that realized, what is it about this event that people are going to? And why should we be supporting the artist to go there? And more so the woman at the time that headed up? Market Development kind of went well? Should we go and have a look at it. And so from their first kind of reconnaissance, they saw that the British had a really big presence on ground and the Canadians and the Nordics and there was it wasn't enough just to give the acts some money to help with you know, travel and accommodation expenses. It was what happens when they're there. So it was very much recognizing there is this thing that's starting to happen, which are music export officers that are providing on the ground assistance. And so they brought together a whole lot of different people within the Australian music industry. So there was some managers that it exported quite a bit with their acts. There were other trade industry organizations that was Aus trade at the time. And through that kind of working group came up with this concept of a sounds Australia and APRA AMCOS very much saw that that was something that their membership would benefit from and time more, you know, APRA riders were spending time internationally. So what could this look like and so the partnership was developed between the Australia Council and APRA and the position was housed within APRA AMCOS. So it was really about coming out and looking at what could we do to support this activity. And so if you get invited to any one of these events, you generally get an offer of one showcase a hell of a long way to go
Chelsea
for 30 minutes or 45 minutes to play.
Millie
Yeah, and the idea is, this is your, you know, it's like a wine expo or a food expo, you know, you're, you're showing your wares. And the best way for artists to do that is through live performance. So you want to be playing more than once. So the very immediate thing, something like sounds Australian could do would be just to set up an ability for an artist to be seen again. And that was us producing additional showcases. So for the last 10 years, that's been the Aussie BBQ showcase. And then we've got variations on that same. So we've, we've done Sound Gallery, we've done two for the showcase, we've done you know, I think at one stage, we had an event called Drizabone, like you know, all different ways of putting Australians front and center and giving them an extra ability to be seen. And then it was also about well, okay, yes, you might have applied, but what do you need from those events, you need to have the capacity to talk to people to get in front of people. And so we started to introduce networking. And so that could take the place of a luncheon like a quite formal sit down meal where there was no bands happening. At that time, it was very much, you know, we're going to try and sit you next to a promoter, we're going to try and set you next to someone that does music supervision, or if you're looking for a label, we might happen to have set you in front of people from a record label. So it was kind of almost like curating a wedding. You know, okay, we were putting there. And I think what worked well, was rather than an artist or an artist manager, trying to get people to come and meet with them, we could do that collectively. So we could hit up these agents and say, Hey, come and meet a whole lot of Australian managers and artists. And so I think we've been able to really create some meaningful and quality networking events that are now pretty much cemented into people's calendar, that they know that at South by on the Wednesday at 12 o'clock, you know, they're probably going to get an invite to our luncheon. And that sort of it's been repeated around the world. We do things like country connections, where all the equivalent to sounds Australia, so the Canadians, the Brits that we all bring our delegations together, and they do some, you know, five minutes speed meetings, or collectively, again, we’ll bring a whole lot of agents in to meet with it. So it's sort of about you know, just where possible, while you're at that event, what additional things can we put into place where you are going to have a very real chance of getting in front of the people you need to. So that's really been the model through throughout the years. And I think a lot of that comes down to the efficiencies in the economies of scale around showcase events. You know, there's certainly schools of thought where, you know, certain people will carve their way going, well, I don't want to get involved with the traffic, you know, everyone's going to South by so I wouldn't be the person that doesn't do that, and goes to LA and New York and has my own meetings. And that's absolutely valid. And if you've got the connections and networks, why not. But I think certainly for those, for the first time, there's a lot to be gained from just being part of a more kind of cohesive and collective kind of networking, it will get you in front of people that you on your own, wouldn't have had those networks. And then that's also built. And I think one of the things, you know, I really, truly didn't expect and it's been probably one of the most rewarding is seeing the camaraderie. But there's this real equalling of the playing field when you're exporting. It doesn't matter if you're from secret sounds, or laneway. Or you're that first time manager. You're all in it together. You know, you're these Australians that are there, you're all being given the same platform and opportunity. And there's a lot of hey, have you met this person? I'll introduce you. And I think that that generosity of spirit and that, you know, ability to kind of work together once they're outside of Australia is something that I just don't think I ever thought I'd see. So tangible. But yeah, I don't I'm just kind of weaved away there. I don't know.
Chelsea
No, I love that it's likely the Australian Olympic team or something. You're all competitors here in Australia, but when you're overseas, you know what your team Australia and you're all supporting each other.
Millie
That's the best analogy and it's you know, you're all in different races. You know, you're a butterfly or I'm a back stroker but he's still standing on the side. It is 100% how it is and you know, short of putting them all in a uniform.
Chelsea
Maybe we should do that.
Millie
It definitely, I think having that united presence has just kind of inherently given them this, you know, this real sense of we're in it together, which has been great. And I know 100% Now it's opened even more doors than we ever could, you know, it's just that practice of really generous, being generous with your networks, being generous with the people that, you know, that could benefit other people. And, letting everyone walk through those doors, I think is something real testament to those that are practicing in the industry side, and certainly the artists become the beneficiaries of that behavior.
Chelsea
So for independent artists, or managers that maybe haven't gone to an international Showcase event before, how do you recommend they choose which one they target? Should they be looking at their Spotify plays and what their audiences are like in other territories? First, or?
Millie
Yeah, and I think it depends also, what genre like we really finding. So when winter Australia was created, it was very much, you know, it was just me, it was, you know, a pretty small operation. And we were targeting the big ones. So South by Southwest, Great Escape at the time, what I discovered pretty soon into that, you know, world was there are a lot of genre events. So we're talking Americana fest, Folk Alliance, international, jazz ahead, classical next, Amsterdam Dance Event. And all of those very much a great, great for artists operating in those settings, you don't have to go to a big event and try and find your people. These are your people, you know, there's obviously factions within it. But ultimately, I really feel like those genre events, had the other addition of having a community, you know, there's far more artists to artists connection, there's a lot more collaborative kind of, you know, from a songwriting perspective that comes out of it, that there definitely could be the right event for certain artists, they're definitely smaller in size, as a first time, if you're looking, they're probably a really good starting point, if you fall into one of those genres, I also am a big believer in what have artists done before you. So artists that you know, kind of your aspirational artists or artists that you'd love to do a support with, like, think about the acts that, you know, if they came to town, who would I love to support? And I'm talking about other Australian acts, what have they done? You know, where did Courtney Barnett showcase? How did you know the middle kids get out there and do it for the first time what was Gang of Youth’s trajectory. So I think just starting to look at, you know, and that information for us, we do have who's gone to events, on our archives, on our sites, seeing what others have done, and how that's worked for them, I think is a really good start. You know, obviously, now, it's changed, it's changed since we started. I mean, you know, when I was coming through, and going back to my, you know, management days, and, you know, booking venues before, then, you know, you would be touring Australia over and over and over again, you'd be building this audience, you'd be, you know, putting savings away from record sales. Remember, when people used to buy records, you know, you'd really have to build Australia, that's totally different, you know, you no longer build Australia as a market and then look to alternatives. And often for Australian acts, that was signed to record deals, where they were signed for the world, they then had a champion in universal in that territory that was prepared to even think about trying to work with them in that market. So it was a totally different approach to export. Now, the minute you're releasing something on Spotify, your global, you know, you can start to look at your analytics, you can look at chart metric, you can look at, you know, how many people in Patagonia or in you know, Chile or, you know, wherever, connecting with you. So, I guess in some ways, it's amazing to just get under the hood and see where your fans and listeners are coming from, which really will help you target. You know, I've been with managers where they've just found, you know, this fits for whatever reason, you know, huge audience in Germany, why? How, you know, they’ve eventually chased it back, but it's like, it actually gives you a bit of targeting then if you are about to embark on a live kind of schedule. But I think what that also means is, it's really expensive to try and manage multiple markets at the same time. You know, and you don't necessarily have the home base where you can earn the same amount to keep refueling. So I feel like as much as it's opened it up, and it's easier and, you know, access to get your music out there is become more democratized. And all of that's great if you're trying to then build international careers in every market simultaneously, that's a lot, it's a really big thing to do. So I think you do need to be really clever about it and sensible about it, and at the same time, keep replenishing your own audience. You know, and I guess if COVID has done anything, you know, you need to look at other ways, if you physically can't get to a market, you know, unfortunately, that whole live revenue just fell off a cliff. So how did I do think so I think it's going to change the whole game. You know, we, we talk amongst our team, often, in that we know, what we're doing. We know what we're trying to achieve on behalf of Australian artists and industry, we know what our objectives are. So we definitely know the what we know the why. What we no longer know is the how. And I'm really honest about that, like, we used to know how showcase conferences worked, we used to know that if you went to this event, and there were people in that room, we knew we could get people in front of you, we didn't necessarily know that they would like you, we didn't necessarily know that they would sign you, but we knew they'd be there. What we don't know right now is how the industry are going to use Global showcase conference events. You know, over the last two years, artists have still been signed, they've been discovered on Tik Tok, they might have had something viral on Twitter, you know, these things have still kept going. Will the record labels still send the same amount of people to these events? Will the same program as the folk festivals go to Folk Alliance? You know, all of those questions remain completely uncertain. And, you know, we feel like people's travel budgets people's risk and want to travel will be different, you know, people's appetite for going to you know, I think you mentioned Chelsea, you know, before you were away five trips that year, are people going to do that any longer? I mean, the whole COVID compliance, the whole testing the whole, it's exhausting. You know, it's it's, you know, fluctuations in price, inflation, like I'm trying to, I mean, I'm not wanting to paint a negative view. But
Chelsea
I know, but it's just realistic, isn't it.
Millie
There's going to be a lot of changes, I think, you know, people are going to look at their carbon footprint in terms of sustainability around their exporting. So there's a whole lot of things that we're about to embark on, that I think we'll need to as a team are going to be sort of going well, what what does it all look like? And in doing so we want to head back out to these events this year in 2022. And we, you know, they're going ahead, and now the borders are down, we can go. But we're going very much with a, does this make sense anymore? And, you know, we used to go to an event and we'd look at who's here, who were the kind of delegates that were getting people in front of what other countries are doing? Is it cost effective, you know, we have to invest in an event to present the things we do, you know, you can't just rock up and put a showcase on like there's, you know, a contract exchange to do that, on behalf of the Australian artists, we need to know that the decisions we're making, in terms of the right events still work for our artists. So yeah, there's a lot of unknown, there's a lot of uncertainty. But you know, it's also exciting, there could be other things that work even better. You know, I think some of the things we needed to do during this time, in terms of putting on virtual events, and online presence, you know, I feel like there's tools that we've, you know, really been able to hone into in that world that could be used before an event. So we can put on some virtual, you know, let's get to know a lot of people before you turn up to a market. You know, that could be another sort of thing that strengthens that engagement. You know, I'm really mindful that there's certain artists that will never be able to tour, you know, whether that's accessibility, whether it's cost prohibitive, but still, equally should be and could be exporting. So we might be able to do more virtual things for those artists or regional artists. So it's all a little bit, there's a huge question mark, as to where all of this will land. And maybe it'll never land. Maybe it's just constantly reassessing and re evaluating. But I think that's what we believe we're in for just to see what, what and how people use these events. And will it be like they used to?
Chelsea
I think ultimately, humans still love music. And it's such a huge part of the human experience. And so we will get through this time. But even during this time, you can see people still bought records, people still participated in live music by streaming gigs. So there's still audiences all around the world that are interested in music and interested in Australian music.
Millie
Oh, no question. Yeah. Yeah,
Chelsea
It's about how do we find those pathways to reach those audiences in this kind of new environment. I definitely agree with you on before heading to an international showcase to do research, I attended Jazz Ahead a couple of years ago now. And it was huge. And it's kind of overwhelming being in this massive exhibition space speaking English, and you're just walking from stand to stand effectively cold calling people. And it seems like everybody there seems to already know each other. So it's, it's also a long term investment, right? You might go every single year, and then you start seeing the same people every year and, and that relationship builds. But how can we try and build those kinds of relationships? Now? What was your thoughts on some of the digital iterations of showcase events over the last couple of years?
Millie
Yeah, and I will say, I mean, you going to Jazz Ahead, I mean, we do have a little bit of a mantra of go before you show. And I feel like there's a lot in that, you know, whether it's as an industry professional, or even a self managed artist, before you bring your four piece band, you just go, you know, go and have a look, get amongst it so that when you do go to showcase, you know, oh, well, that's the right venue, I should try and be playing or I know that these other people are putting on additional showcase parties that I want to get in on. So it's really good that you did that. And I think there's a lot to be to be achieved by going first. So in terms of digital, I feel like there was certainly music conferences that did that really well. Others, it was just a last minute thing that they had to do, because their virtual event got shut down, you know, within five weeks of the show. But I think what we found was, you know, nothing's ever going to replace that in life experience. You know, I feel like what we started to see was, you know, you just had no idea who was there, at least in real life, you could see delegates with their badges, you knew where they were from, you know, this was like, you know, and the conference is gonna tell you, there were 1000s of people there. It's like, were there, you know, and if there were there, were they even at your Showcase, you know, there were certain events we were involved with, when there were a number of virtual showcases up against each other. And then even if they were in your room, were they actually watching, or were they feeding the dog or watering some plants. So all of that became quite true. I've got to say, again, coming back to those genre events, they were the most potent, and I think it was that sense of community. And if you can start to get people in the chat, and get our artists in the chat, that's where the connections were starting to happen. But I guess we use that experience to create what's called inside sounds, which is a portal, we've developed at the backend of our website, so that we've now been hosting events within this portal. So the Australian artists, the Australian industry, the international industry, all get a profile, and they can connect in there. We’ve held, We have a conference for the Australian Country Music Association and the Canadian Country Music Association. We were, you know, getting a whole lot of panel sessions that happened at international events, and showing them in our time zone. And people could do it in there. And we invited those speakers that had spoken in an event somewhere overseas, to join the chat and stay around for a bit of an after, you know, conversation. So I guess there's definitely been virtual activity that has worked. I think you might know that we used to do one on one meetings at Big Sound. And at WAM, for all the internationals that came in, we did both of those virtually, and some really great connections happened. And in fact, there were a couple of speakers, some of the international speakers said, this was actually better than big sound, because I wasn't distracted, you know, I got put into the breakout room, and you don't want to chat like we are, rather than all the people behind coming to try and drag you away. So you know, there was some benefits there.
I think out of everything that we did virtually the most rewarding has been creating a project called global music match. And that was very much recognizing, okay, these acts aren't gonna tour. But how could we still connect to people. And so we've worked, we worked with 16 different countries. And there were, you know, I think the first session, there were 120 Odd acts. And the next one we did a little bit. And each of the acts were put into teams of five, and there was, you know, an Australian act with five others. And then over the course of the coming weeks, each artist got a feature week in which everyone else introduced them to their fan bases. So it was kind of using a little bit of the principle of you know, you've got a main act and you've got the support and the main acts introducing that support to their audience, and was sort of similar in a way here. So, you know, one week it'd be the Taiwanese Act would get introduced to five new markets at the same time. And how they got introduced could be you know, it could be a conversation it could be a collaboration, we had artists covering each other's songs, we had artists, creating new songs together. And through the whole process, they were learning how to video edit, they were learning what whitelisting meant, they were learning, you know how to make sure that their copyrights were flat. So there was a lot of the educational side of using your social media and all your available ways of connecting with your audience, but doing it with other acts. And so the things that came out of that were just this idea that every artist, no matter where they were in the world, was going through this same thing, like, you know, the pandemic left no country untouched. And so for these artists to be able to share their experiences with people all around the world, but then have this global connector of music and write songs together and share information and learn together. Again, like there was that camaraderie and that you know, that they're all now still talking, you know, this Glenn Glenny, who I work with, is literally on maybe 35 Different WhatsApp groups from all these teams, after the two years, and they're still talking, and they're still, you know, now they're at the stage where well, now we're touring, can I come and stay on your couch? During it, there was there was a global music match, crash for the working mothers, the artists, mothers that could get together and share their experience. So, you know, things like that have been amazing to be part of and to really, you know, see that it music is so universal. But yeah, just just even from, you know, for us, and in terms of what does that mean for new audiences, they still found some new audiences, they've certainly now got a network that they can that can connect with when they go.
Chelsea
That's incredible. And what a wonderful initiative and congratulations, I'd love to see more of that. And you know, it'd be incredible for the next kind of post COVID incarnation of international showcases to have those kinds of songwriter hubs on ground because those conference environments are such an exchange of ideas and networking, and meet and greets and opportunities to book existing work. But it would be incredible to see also as happening in conjunction to that to get all the artists together to keep writing together. Because as international collaborations are so unique for touring, as well. And I think a lot of international programmers are looking for unique projects like that. So speaking of international festivals, a lot of artists and managers and booking agents will head over to those international conferences, because they're hoping to book international festival dates for their artists. What do you think festival programmers are looking for in terms of Australian artists? And how do we go about trying to get those kinds of things?
Millie
And I guess, you know, right now, we're sort of trying to work out where the booking schedule might self correct to how it was. So you used to know that there were certain times where the Booker's were looking, you know, they've done their headliners. They've done most of their main kind of billing. But there were always going to be those emerging artists spots. And so the timing of certain festivals worked really well, with the summer that northern hemisphere summer. So right now, though, you've got programmers that are trying to deal with two years worth of backlog. All these acts that they had booked for 2020 shows are they automatically going to get on that stage in 2022, maybe, maybe not. And there's different festivals are taking different approaches, some of them and this is both commercial festivals and the showcase conference model. Some of them are going you know what, we're just starting from scratch, we still want the emerging acts. So that could be an act that didn't even exist, you know, two years ago, you've got others that are very loyal to that initial programming and trying to still find them a stage. You've also now got this situation where so many heritage and iconic and seminal acts are coming out of the woodwork. And if you look at the consumption and the streaming numbers, and the sales, it's all catalog. It's all this back catalogue. It's really hard in terms of new artists coming through, because you've now got all these older acts that have decided, well, hang on, we just had a bit of a win and people are listening to our records again. Now we might go out. So the I just think the traffic in terms of who's playing is everyone's trying to go out and mobilize at the same time. So I feel like in terms of what those festival programmers are doing, the world's almost their oyster in terms of choice. You know, there's not a lack of choice. You know, you've got every artist in the world hasn't toured live for two years, and all the artists that thought they were done They are coming out again. And that's who they get to choose from. So I feel like, yes, there's the choice, a lot of it's going to come down to probably working with festivals or working with each other in a way they haven't needed to before. Like, we're hearing horrendous stories of supply chains, and production issues and hiring of stadiums, and why would you keep loading and unloading out, if these venues are being used one after the other, maybe the production goes in and stays there, you know, you've got most companies, the staffing losses, staffing that, you know, people that have left the industry that may never come back, are causing horrific price increases, you know, just, this is probably more in a festival situation. But you know, security companies, your luggers, your techs, your highly trained guitar and lighting like, so many of them have left. So again, whilst you might have this desire and need for all these artists to come out, the sheer reality of delivering those shows, there's, there's a disconnect there, you know, when you've got an act like Adele, that pulls out of a Vegas residency, because their production and COVID like that, that to me, it's like, you know, all the money in the world could have been, could be thrown at fixing that problem. There's clearly some major sort of things that are going to take a little bit of time to correct. So in terms of Australian artists looking, I think there's a couple of things in play. One of the things we did, very, very early on in the pandemic was recognize that Australian artists were going to need help in a way we'd probably never done before. And we also knew that, you know, it didn't make sense for us to rush out and spend our existing budgets doing virtual everything. You know, we definitely wanted to try and we wanted to keep Australians still present. But it was very much where could we save and hold a surplus, a budget surplus, that could then be redirected. And so the government partners for Sounds Australia, so the federal government in Australia, Council for the Arts, along with APRA AMCOS, Aria and the PPCA. All agreed. And it's really terrific that they did this, that we could redirect our 2020 and 2021 surplus into a funding program. So we were able to do that the minister topped it up a little bit. So we've been able to, we were in the midst of judging round two. But that was about trying to get artists immediately back out on stages and trying to help with some of the additional costs COVID had brought to the forefront. So at the time for round one, it was quarantine, you know, hotel quarantine, it was the cost of additional flight costs, you know, there were flights to LA for $16,000. Like it was absurdity, it was about, you know, increased insurance premiums. Now, now, there's no quarantine, but visa costs are insane, trying to get your visas expedited is crazy, you know, COVID, consumables, you know, there's a story and this, this just blows our mind. Like, there's an Australian artist looking at getting into a writing room with a really big writer in the US. And part of the conditions of that happening are that it's the Australian writers expense to pay $400 A day US for a nurse to come in and administer rapid antigen tests, what to everyone in that room. So there's this whole kind of category that we're now referring to COVID consumables, like your PCR tests aren't free everywhere, you know, if you're going state to state you've got like, so all these additional costs because of the environment. So the whole idea was to create this grant, that those with established careers, those that already had the teams that just needed to get back out there, we could help get them away. What has become really apparent, though, is in addition to those acts, there's a whole lot of Australian acts, like you said that haven't had a chance to break through yet, for the last two years would have been the ones going to these events and getting their kickstart have got ridiculous streaming numbers, but have never left the country. So we would love to see a dedicated export grants program exist. That was for all levels, you know, that showed if you've got an invite to a conference there, you can have a little bit of you, you know, got a jazz ahead show but then it's that it's that middle area of return to market. You know, if you've already had a little bit of success and you need to go back, how do you get back in a timely manner. You know, if you've had to max out your credit cards, you know, call on your parents and save and save and save to do that first event. And you've had success and everything you wanted came true. You've got the producer that wants to work with you. You've got the gun agent. You've got an act that wants you on support, how do you do that? You know, it's not often that the first trips usually the easiest, it's the second and the third and the, you know, so I guess they're the sorts of things we're advocating for is more support in those areas. So when you come back to your question of, you know, when should people be going, they've just got to be really, really sure that they can afford it, that they can afford the risk if something happens to them, that they absolutely know what they're going into. And I feel like these next couple of years, unless you've really got some strong support and teams around you, it's gonna be hard. You know, it is that that's the reality of it. I feel like if you can develop audiences more locally, you know, looking at Australia and regional remote audiences, trying to do as much as you can online, and just build up before you're ready to go because it is going to be tough, like, International was hard already. It's going to be so much harder. So it's definitely not a no, because I think the audiences are there. The appetite for Australians to be overseas is huge. Like we're in demand. There's definitely people that want Australian talent, the Talent is not a problem. Talents never been a problem in this country. You know, it's one of the easiest things we get to do. We know that, you know, when we put a group of Australians on stage, they'll knock it out. You know, it's just it's all the behind the scenes getting there. That's the hard part.
Chelsea
Can we go back in time a little and chat about your early career starting off in programming, booking artists for shows at Macquarie Uni Hopetoun hotel, the Annandale hotel? What do you think your biggest learnings were during your time as band Booker?
Millie
Wow, that's really taken me back. I thought we were just going back post COVID for pre COVID. But we're really going back. Look, I feel like some of the biggest learnings, okay, I feel like, people like to talk in the industry, you know, like, I've never used that guy, I'll never use her. She's X, Y, and Z. And it's like, that might be the case. But I need to know that for myself. So I think if I'd listened to every person that said, never work with Bob, or never work with Janet, I would have limited some really great relationships and opportunities, because I think every every thing, and particularly if you're booking venues, you're dealing with all kinds of acts, you know, all kinds of levels all kinds of genres. You just can't, you can't treat everyone like someone else might have been treated, if that makes sense. So I've found that not listening to that advice was really great. Because it's also how, you know, there might have been other reasons why that person, it didn't work out, you know, so have your own experience. Don't necessarily, you know, be mindful if someone says, Be careful of them, and you trust that person. Sure. But I genuinely think people are wanting to do the right thing. And I feel like that was a pretty early lesson for me was just create your own relationships and see where that goes. Because I think that if I'd listened to everything, and everyone said, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have done things the way I did. So yeah, I feel like that was one. Asking, you know, there was there were certain acts that, you know, you'd never think that they'd play the size room that I had, like, I was only working with pretty small rooms, you know, 250 300 at the Hoey, and then up to five at the Annondale. But you know, you start getting creative, like getting bigger acts in over three nights, you know, so even things like that. I think if you if you're in those position, like you can only ask, you know, people are happy if you ask the question.
Chelsea
I found that too. As a booker, when I first started because I'm a musician that then started festival programming. I felt really, I had to sort of overcome feeling uncomfortable or embarrassed about what I thought was not a huge sum of money I was offering. Yeah, yeah. And I thought, Ah, I feel awkward. I think they should get paid more. But this is the only budget that I have. And a friend of mine, who's a fellow Booker said to me, Chelsea, you have to just go and ask the question. They won't be offended. They're still flattered. You've asked them for a gig. And he said to me, how do you feel if somebody gives you an offer to perform, and it's not a huge budget. And I just said, Well, I just say thanks for the offer. I can't do my full band for that fee, but I could do a duo gig perhaps and you just go back and forth. And he said, Well, exactly. So you just go out there with the offer and see how you go.
Millie
I think being as honest as you can. I mean, I think it's also it's also looking for other things like there's certain venues that build a reputation for having a sort of music, you know, it's all rock. If there's the flexibility starting to broaden the programming is always useful because the reality of those venues is that it's also a license publican, and someone who owns the space. And as much as they probably are very, you know, happy if it's the right kind of act in there, they just want bar sales, they literally just want people in there to drink so that they can pay the rent. And so it's trying to get a very delicate balance of what's going to do that for your publican, versus what's going to work for the industry that you love, and the artists that you want to have performed there. So I think it was always a matter of, you know, there were certain acts like I remember doing, you know, Two Litre Dolby, Elmo per jersey, like that kind of, you know, Shoegaze, really, you know that a lot of people were going to sit on the floor and drink water. But they were the great artists, they should have been in the room. And so it was a matter of convincing the Publican that I was going to do this, but then I was going to bring in, you know, just a four on the floor belting rock, you know, dad's in the afternoon, they will drink till they can't stand for them the next week. So, you know, I don't know if this is your answer. But I think it was always just sort of you there for a commercial reason. It's someone's business, if you've been engaged as a booker, you have to keep people coming in the door, or they're not going to be able to keep that venue open. But then you definitely want to be able to, you know, create a feeling that the people that come to the room, it means something to them. I definitely found over those years, you had to trust your networks, like there was no way I could listen to every single cassette, this is going to age me, you know, that was sent in or then CD, like, you know, there were walls, and walls. And if all I did was listen to the music presented as a book and I'm sure most Booker's would say that you'd never do anything else, you actually couldn't have the time to book the room. So you needed to have really key tastemakers and people, you know, whether they were other artists, whether they were just other colleagues or you know, trusting the agents, you know, that that would come to you and rely on that you couldn't do it all yourself, like no booker is doing all of that they've got go to people that they're calling on, and finding out, you know, who's the Who's the next act? Who should we be looking at you just constantly asking those questions. I feel like there's, you know, the booking thing, you know, really gave you a good, you know, understanding of the mechanics of the industry. You know, you'd come across the agents, you deal with the managers you deal with, you know, labels would do showcases so just starting to put the pieces together, of what the ecology looked like, I think you're really at the heart and soul being in those rooms. No, they were pretty special times.
Chelsea
It's really interesting. Your point around the drinking, versus the amount of people in the room and the genre. I always assumed things like, Oh, blues audiences, you know, they drink quite a lot because the music refers to alcohol, like one bourbon, one Scotch one beer, yeah, that sort of thing. But then the reality is a lot of blues audiences are older, and they might drive to the gig and they have one beer. And so what I didn't realize as a as a booker and with programming that I thought it was a successful night because the room is full. But the Publican is like actually we didn’t sell any drinks.
Millie
I can only I mean, look, I was doing it. I was booking up until 2003. So you know, the difference now, even in the culture of consumption, and alcohol will be so different. And it's interesting, because one of the things internationally, now people are talking about a drop sales. So you're seeing a percentage of shows that have sold, but a certain percentage are just not going to turn up on the day. And that's obviously affecting our sales, it's affecting merch sales. And it could mean in a lot of cases for the acts, they're not playing to a full room, you know, but that very much is the type of act, you know, so different genres. Anyone that's, you know, got an older audience that skews older. That's where the drop sales are happening. Any of the dance stuff where it's young kids, they're going, they're going out, no one's no one's not turning up there. So it's quite fascinating that that type of Act has always had a an impact on the actual back end of those shows. Yeah.
Chelsea
So you went from booking you've had executive positions with the Australian Association of artists, managers, music New South Wales. But what led you to specializing in export? Did you travel a lot before you started with Sounds Australia?
Millie
No, I left Macquarie Uni and went and started working in the Annandale and the Hopetoun, but in doing so had kind of come across this new association called Music New South Wales, I'd actually gone for the job initially of the first job, I didn't get it. It went to a really terrific guy called Matthew Elliott, who happened to book the Annandale. And so he knew I went for the Music New South Wales job because we crossed each other in the interview area. And he called and said, Hey, I figure you're looking, do you want to book the Annandale? That's a long way of saying, that's where I learned about this thing called a Music Industry Association. So I very much was aware of it was brought in as a board member pretty early on. So I feel like just kind of having a scope of being around an association like that, that was pretty all encompassing for a state, gave you again, a really good look at where the levels of need were for the industry. And I started to in my role, at first as a board member of music, New South Wales, and then as a, as the creative director, export was absolutely a really key step. So I guess I started kind of looking at opportunities and strategies there, even though I wasn't personally out on the road doing it. It was recognizing it was happening slowly, slowly at that time, but then kind of going well, what do we need to as an association start to look at to help. So I was very much involved from a new music, New South Wales, and then later aiming, so the Australian music industry network that umbrellas all of the state and territory industry associations, in terms of their role in the export conversation. So I guess I sort of started there. And then it was just sort of, you know, in many ways, I feel like every single thing I'd done up until the point where I started with sounds Australia led me to that job. So I had represented AIM at South by that stage. And I had done some stuff with Music New South Wales as well. And I'd also simultaneously when I was at the Hopetoun, I was approached by the Canadian cultural general in Sydney, to go to Canada, and speak at a conference. And I didn't even know about music conferences at this stage, I think Big Sound might have only just been in its first year, I think I went to their first year as a holy Booker, which is kind of wild now. But I'm going over to Canada, talking about opportunities for Canadian acts into Australia as a programmer, was my first expose there. And then the consulate then approached me and said, We want to write a Touring guide of how to tour Australia, for Canadian artists. So it was the reverse of what I do. But it was very much thinking, Okay, if I was a Canadian act, and I'm coming here, what do I need to know? So I guess a lot of that kind of, you know, deeper engagement as to what a country is looking for, was almost as soon as I got into that Sounds Australia was thinking about it in reverse, what do our artists need? And I really think, and probably to this day, most of the strategy and decisions our team are making is very much from a manager's perspective, you know, what if a manager was going to come and get involved, either with their artist or without what would work for them internationally. So I think I feel like that's kind of how it's all built.
Chelsea
You've served as a board director for FBI arts training New South Wales, you're currently on the board of Support Act, most of these board roles are unpaid, there are a huge amount of work. So it's an incredible service, that you contribute to the music industry. What do you think you've learned from being a board director? And do you recommend that other people follow suit?
Millie
Yeah, I mean, it's just, I guess, I really believed in all those organizations, like I believed, you know, FBI was slightly different, because it was, my involvement was before they got the license, it was for about five or six years campaigning for their very existence. So there was absolutely a need, still the need today, but a very different role that the board had. And every, every organization, the board plays, different levels of engagement, and some aboard a highly active and others just take a more passive role. And you just sort of told things at the end of, you know, meeting, but yeah, I feel like it's allowed me to, to meet some really different people that I might not otherwise have come in touch with. I think, you know, the ability to kind of see the part of the world that you are operating in and working with, if there's any way that that can kind of build, you know, decision making in terms of the board or the organization, you're helping. I think there's a lot of crossover, you know, you keep coming back to this ecosystem and ecology and there's no escaping it. You know, we are the sum of many, many, many parts. And I feel like at each time I've had the privilege to be on one of these boards. You’re taking everything that you've learned from all the different people that have come to that organization, and then you take that with you, it's almost like a Lego, you know, you just keep adding on. So I feel like that's been really important. And there's always, you know, and more so I think people have looked at diversity across the board structures, but there's always different voices, there's always people, as I said, that I probably wouldn't have come in touch with just through my role, but have had a really incredible opportunity to share discourse and conversation and debate and strategy with at that level, you're really lucky to be involved with those opportunities as well, like those organizations, most of them are running on the smell of an oily rag. So it is going to take volunteer staff at all levels, and to be able to have an opportunity. And if you can do anything, at any stage to be part of it, I do highly recommend it. I think I've taken a lot of learnings from the people that have been the CEOs of the boards into how I've then run sounds Australia. So I think you get a chance to kind of look under the hood a little bit, you know, there's certain, you know, often those boards will have planning days and facilitate strategic, you know, workshops, all of those learnings are really great and encouraging for what we do as well,
Chelsea
It's a different part of your brain, right? Because you get to sit around a table where you're just looking at governance, you're just looking at strategy, as opposed to maybe your other role where you're delivering projects, and you're more in that operational mode. So it's a brilliant opportunity to sort of develop your chops in that other area. Can we talk a little bit about Support Act an organization that you're on the board of, it's been such an incredibly tough time for artists and industry, over the last few years and Support Act have played an incredible role in advocating for artists and supporting artists at that grassroots level. What do you think the next steps are for the Australian music industry in terms of supporting the healing and recovery from the mental health crisis, that the pandemic has resulted?
Millie
It's a lot, like it is a lot. And, you know, we're, we're so far from where we need to be, I think, you know, I think support was already on the right path in terms of focusing on prevention rather than crisis. And so even well, before COVID, there’d been conversations and already, you know, they've started to move into, you know, a lot of their, their suite of services now from, you know, mental health clinics, the, you know, all the different online, you know, activities that they're running, everything got, you know, you put the foot to the pedal, when COVID happened, they, they had the ability to do it because of the government funding, that that's where the focus needs to be at. And, you know, whether it's drug and alcohol conversations, whether it's around, you know, the financial management, for others, it's all the sessions and workshops, and, you know, everything in terms of education and knowledge sharing, that you can do before someone gets into crisis. So I think a lot of the focus will be really targeting those, those different programs. And then I guess, it's also looking at the counseling services that are ongoing. So there's already the main helpline, there's a First Nations helpline, there's the sexual harassment area, that Support Act are taking a big role in terms of helping manage that project for the for now, in terms of how that investigation is going to roll out. So I think there's, there's so much that an organization like Support Act can do and is I think, really shown over the last few years, what it's capable of, I think it'll just be a matter of really looking at those distinct areas of need. And we're not out of the woods, we're not even close to being out of the woods, you know, the lag for the music industry, even though you know, restrictions are coming down, you know, capacities are increasing, which is amazing and fantastic and it's about bloody time, it's still going to be a very long time before you know, people were earning the same level, you know, all of those things are going to take time. So there's absolutely a need for more funding for Support Act. The New South Wales governments just come on board with 5 million which they've never contributed before, which is fantastic. But, you know, every cent of that money that came in from the federal government has all gone like it is so near and we're not talking big amounts, the 2000 increment amounts going to people, there's just that many people needing it. So yeah, I think there's a lot you know, just even structurally, I think the depth of what support can offer could be huge. It just needs to be done in a way that's sustainable, because you've got this situation where money's coming into the organization because of a crisis. And they've obviously got all of it out the door. But it's also allowed programs to be instigated, it's how do we keep those programs going, when that same level of funding isn't coming in? So it's sort of about just trying to how do you meet that that balance?
Chelsea
Why I think it'd just be brilliant if across the commercial sector and the nonprofit sector where possible, and major funding organizations like creative Victoria to make programs like mental first aid training, mental health programs, unconscious bias, all of those kinds of programs to be delivered in those commercial sectors so that we're getting to people within roles. And at the university tertiary level, as well. That is the responsibility taken from the whole industry to work on that. So it's not just all this pressure on one organization to be the champion, that it's something that is delivered cohesively throughout.
Millie
A hundred percent agree. I think what it has, you know, it's definitely shown that this small organization has the ability to scale if it's got the funding to do it. So I think that's a really great proof of concept in terms of our conversations and advocacy now with various state governments. And as you said, like, it's almost having, you know, the map’s there, the models are there, the programs are there, you know, is the tertiary sector gonna come and they then license it, or, you know, there's a whole how many ways can you skin a project kind of thing? So yeah, I think it's all, you know, right now for Support Act to being heads up, you know, getting the money out the door. And I think once there's a bit of breathing room, we'll be able to kind of look at that a little, you know, a little further. Certainly one area that's really blossomed and grown is everything Carter has been doing with First Nations and First Nations, you know, accessing Support Act and understanding that it's there for them and, you know, different kinds of workshops and conversations, that yarning good session, like, it's been great to see what she's been able to do in such a small amount of time. But there's so much more work that can be done there as well. So, yeah, I feel like it's got the right leadership, the staff are phenomenal. You know, the team’s all there. It's just, it's just working through it. Now.
Chelsea
One more thing I wanted to talk to you about and that's Eurovision. You are a judge for the Australian entrance. Is that something you ever imagined doing?
Millie
No. And it's pretty funny because you know, there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that I would be you know, quite proud of and quite, Yeah, that's something I'd love to be remembered for. That I remember when they announced the judges and I've done it twice now for Eurovision actually. Everyone from school like people I'd never heard from in years came out of the woodwork and it's like you've made it! Like, I'm judging a glorified Band comp. But you know, sure that it was fun. It was super fun. It's I still find it pretty wild that Australia's even in there. And believe me, I've tried to use our inclusion of Eurovision as a way to try and get Australia included in Eurosonic. Because Eurosonic is one of the best showcase conference festivals that happens in Groningen in January, and I have had endless conversations as to why can't we be involved? And the minute we were included in Eurovision, I thought that would work for us, but apparently it hasn't. It's not enough.
Chelsea
We can keep trying. Do you think Australia is truly accepted as a genuine entrant in the competition?
Millie
Um, I think it depends on what social media Facebook group you want to have a look at. It's getting there. I mean, look, it's all a bit of fun, right? Like, I don't I don't know how many people are taking it too seriously. And look, we got in because of the sheer numbers of people that were watching Eurovision in Australia through SBS. Like, it's fantastic entertainment. You know, and look, I think you can kind of go back and forth on your idols and yeah, you know, you're the voice and all these songs, you know, they're No, it's not real music. It's like, you know what, anything that makes people listen to music, and cherish it is alright, by me. Like, I think anything. Absolutely. I don't have an issue that it might not be seen as cool that uh, it doesn't matter. Like, all these things that have a, you know, a broad and incredibly mass reach, still puts music at the forefront of a conversation. And I still feel like that's a really good thing. Regardless.
Chelsea
What I love about it is you know, it's a song competition. So it's all about the song, you know, which is great.
Millie
A funny thing did happen in one of them because you have to, it's all very serious like when you're nominated. You have to go through a review process they have do all these checks on you, which is just crazy. And then you can get approved to judge but then, you know, there's all these things in terms of, you know, you're not supposed to know anyone, you got to declare conflict of interest. And I remember, this was the first job I think we'd done the first heat and it was the second heat. And at the end of the song, you can the writers, the songwriters come up. And it turned out, it was actually the Swedish entrant had an Australian an APRA member writer. And I'm like, Oh, my God, and I wouldn't I didn't know that going in. So I didn't know to declare that they had to, you know, I had to tell the they've got an official notary there. We had to go through, you know, and I said look, there's no reason that I would be waving this any differently. But yeah, they had to go through all the official, you know, connections that had they have joined the dots. It was pretty well, it's serious. They take it very seriously.
Chelsea
So who would be? This is my last question. But who would be your dream Australian act to perform at Eurovision?
Millie
Oh, I’m not going to. This is like Sophie's Choice. I love the same Chelsea I just don't think I could. I don't think I could do it. I honestly don't think I can. I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass on that one. Any Australian artist is fine by me. You’re not gonna get me to admit that one.
Chelsea
I'm a huge Kylie fan. So I'd love to see Kylie at Eurovision.
Millie
That would be cool. That would be very cool.
Chelsea
But I would also feel quite joyed if Jimmy Barnes was there. I feel like that would be peak Australia right there.
Millie
So Australia. I mean, you could do so much. I mean, look, you look at Confidence Man. You look at Client Liaison you look at you know, some of the, you know, that kind of, you know, I reckon they can totally do it. Yeah, I'm happy with them all, all of them. I'll tell you what has been interesting is when it changed from just putting an act forward to Australia decides what has been great is the interest in that event internationally, has really kind of picked up and provided momentum for a number of the artists that they didn't make it to Eurovision but even then Australia decides audience allowed them to release to the you know, the traction they were getting on their socials had they been allowed to tour was was, you know, I know, there was a record company working with one of the groups that was able to use their appearance of Australia lives as part of their strategy internationally. And I think that's been that's been really good. And all of those acts are you know, that they err on the side of pop, but they’re original songwriters there. You know, that's been fantastic. So that exposure, huge, huge.
Chelsea
Yeah, it's an incredible opportunity. And I really hope that it means for some Australian artists that they can build really great European audiences.
Millie
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I really feel for Montaigne, you know, that was really hard that she didn't get to do it in person and, you know, needed to do the virtual year. But you know, for Kate and yeah, it's, it's, it's awesome. It is awesome in that regard. I'll give you that.
Chelsea
It's a great. Oh, Millie, thank you so much for taking the time with me on the Control podcast.
Millie
Good on you for getting this underway as well. I think it's really important. And I think, you know, it's so good to see people like you doing this. Jen Cloher has run it. You know, I managed my music. Clare Bowditch has created opportunities Andrea Kerwin up in the you know, Sunny Coast. I just feel like there's, you know, amazing entrepreneurial young women that are out there, you know, creating these initiatives that yes, there's certain ways that people can find them through organizations. But when individuals are doing it for each other, it's really important. So congratulations.
Chelsea
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that.
That was Millie Millgate in control. For more information, please check the links in the show notes to sound Australia and Support Act. Please subscribe to Control on your preferred podcast platform. And if you have a moment please rate and leave a review. It helps other people find the podcast. This episode was recorded on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung land and I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and all First Nations peoples. Until next time, stay kind.
