El Chantry

CREDITS:

Produced, edited by Chelsea Wilson in collaboration with Linda Catalano, Quiet Riot

Transcript by Chelsea Wilson

Thanks to Melbourne Recital Centre

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

venue, program, artists, festival, music, people, space, programming, Melbourne Recital Centre, shows, market, Melbourne, audience, work, present, experience, gigs

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea:
Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women working in the music and creative industries. I’m Chelsea Wilson your host and for the next four episodes I’m thrilled to be collaborating with Melbourne Recital Centre - I’ll be chatting with artist in residence Mindy Meng Wang plus award winning composer and artist Deborah Cheetham. But in this episode, we go behind the scenes at MRC to chat to the woman behind the artistic schedule - Music Program Manager El Chantry. 

Originally from Perth, El has worked in the arts for more than 15 years, across music programming, event management and arts policy. She has worked for organizations such as City of Melbourne, Creative Partnerships Australia, Gertrude Street Projection Festival and the West Australian Department of Culture and the Arts. 
In this conversation I ask El how she approaches creating the Melbourne Recital Centre program; how she navigates presenting contemporary music in a room originally designed for classical music, her time working in Norway and much more.

This is El Chantry, in Control.

Chelsea:

El Welcome to the control podcast. Great to see you.

El: Thank you Chelsea you too

 Chelsea: Really excited to chat to you about your role in programming at Melbourne recital Centre and your career. But firstly, I wanted to ask you about the recital Centre, it was architecturally designed to be a prestige home for classical music. So can you tell us a little bit about the history of contemporary music within the space?

00:26

El: Yeah, sure. It's, it's the most incredible space, and you're right, it was designed for classical music and that's what it has done really well, for a very long time. It's presented some contemporary music from the beginning, it had, you know, jazz ensembles and small-scale groups, but the PA system that was in there just wasn't quite appropriate for the venue or for getting larger contemporary, amplified music. So, you know, when you speak about contemporary, I guess what you're asking there is about amplified music, more so. So it's been a kind of a journey over a little while, and most of it comes down to a few things, one, you know, had to build an audience in that space, there's so many incredible contemporary live music venues in Victoria, as we know. And so entering that space, the venue had to kind of understand what its purpose would be, and where it would fit within that market. It also had to have a really good sound system, as we just said, the PA, so that actually took time and investment, and a lot of tweaking, and we still continue to tweak that system. But maybe only probably only about five years ago, did the system get into a place that was really good to present contemporary live music, which made it possible, of course, and yeah, and then actually just figuring out that market and who we are and where we sit in there. So it's been fairly, the venue has been around for just over, I think it's 14 years now. And, yeah, we're coming quite strong into contemporary and now we present 50% of what we present is, you know, contemporary music, I would say, it's still a really important space for classical music presentation, of course, because there's not as many venues in the market for it. But it's also incredible for contemporary, definitely for a market, you know, the sit-down concert, there's a lot of value there in the contemporary space, to have a venue like this. So it's been a really fun journey, getting it to kind of to push the limits of both rooms, the hall and the salon. And we keep kind of pushing it in trying to see what else we can do in there. But the idea of the whole venue is to be a Music Centre for you know, a whole for all kinds of music.

02:34

Chelsea: So how do you navigate that, from a programming point of view? Are there some genres or artists that you think just wouldn't suit that sound system and that room?

02:44

El:

Yeah, it's like, I'm always on two sides of the fence with this, sometimes I want to push that space. And just let's see how we go, let's put something in there completely unexpected, and see what we can do. And then on the flip side, I'm always like, well, this is a beautiful room for this. So why don't we just, you know, showcase, you know, a vocal ensemble or something and that because it's going to sound incredible. I think it's important to do both. Really, what is the purpose of bringing our artists into this venue, when you have places like the forum or the corner that are going to sound incredible, because that's what they do every night of the week. It's kind of like a different show. It has to be kind of a different experience. So you know, you can bring we've had hip hop, you know, like Baker boy, or somebody in there that you know, is a live, kind of jump up and down act. And the audience has stood up and been part of it. And it's been fabulous, but it's kind of a different presentation, right? It's also we're an all ages venues. So there's lots of kids in there that could come that couldn't go to the corner or the forum. So it brings something else to the space. You know, bringing a different type of act. I haven't quite yet had like a metal act in there. But that's maybe you know, it's on the list. I want to do something with that. But we've pushed it almost with all genres really, really loud. electronic music works really well, too. Yeah, lots of different things in there.

04:04

Chelsea:

Can you talk us through how you put a program together? And what some of the considerations might be? Is there kind of a narrative or an arc or a theme that you're working with? Do you think of it in seasons? Do you have some sort of overview strategic plan of approaching it?

04:20

El: Yeah, so on a very basic level, we get set a budget at the beginning of the year of how many shows need to present. And within that, that kind of is broken down to what type of show as simple as like, is it a classical show or contemporary show, but then the actual arc and thematics that we put into it, we really do look at seasons at the moment. This is something, MRC used to do an annual program which worked really well for, you know, the classical groups who were booked a year out in advance, but not so good for the contemporary industry that's a bit more responsive and maybe locking in a show three months from when it's actually going to go on. So now, you know, and in this market, of course, where we didn't know what was going on, we're really looking seasonally. And this has always fit into kind of the programming is what's going on within the context of the your programming as to what fits where, you know, summer is a great time for like, big exciting things to be out be excited by; perhaps, you know, going into autumn, which is a time of change, it's like perhaps there's some more challenging things that we can get to people or we can learnings or educational elements that we can bring in. We've got like our music play festival that we've presented that period of time, this idea of kind of like, yeah, transforming, you know, experience in mind. Winter, it's all cold and, you know, you want to be wrapped up in music, and what kind of experience do you want to actually leave the house for? And when you're there, how do you want to experience it? So these things all feed into my programming and where things fit or where things fall? We obviously, you know, when you're in the international market, most people are in Europe during our winter their summer. So thing you know, we look at summer, because there's, you know, people are coming out touring,  it's kind of the bigger scale, things come through there. I think it's really important to know, wait shows that you're presenting fit, where festivals fit, where everything kind of falls, because the season does go up and down. The other thing we consider, you know, we invite a lot of schools to do their presentations, that's always in September and August. So we know it's going to be, you know, a quieter time for music, fits around there. But yeah, there's a there's always a flow. And we're always considering how seasons influence, audience experience and what type of music can fit in that space.

06:39

Chelsea: So speaking of the kind of international tours and things like that, can you talk about co-shares with other festivals or spaces? How you can work MRC into a tour and how you go about negotiating those kind of shows or events? Is there kind of like a bidding war that you're going into, versus other venues to compete for certain shows?

07:00

El: Sometimes, yeah, I mean, sometimes there's a mean, sometimes you know, of the war, sometimes you don't, you're just talking straight to the agent and you're like, I've got this one, and then it falls through. And that's fine, and you find out but again, like in a festival, we always love to co-present with festivals. And again, it's the thing about, you know, you're the sum of two parts being better than just one of us. And then when you're working with a festival, it's like, what can we achieve that you alone couldn't do? Or we alone couldn't do? And what can we do together? So, you know, it comes with kind of joint investment to make something special happen. Like what we did with ‘Rising’ who helped invest in that show we had with Harvey Sutherland, where we transformed the venue into a dance hall. It's things like that, that, you know, you want to be a part of festivals and be part of things. But what could we bring that we wouldn't usually do outside our schedule as well to be part of that festival. But yes, there are always bidding wars, and you might not know about them. But you've just got to put your best foot forward and your best offer forward always for the artist, if there's somebody you really after. And some you know, a lot of the time, it's a two-way thing, you know, things will get pitched to us. But we'll also chase things down that we really like as well.

08:15

Chelsea: Has it been any absolute dream gig highlights for you at MRC, like fist pump moments where you're in the office? Like yes, I landed this artists I've got them!!

08:27

El: (laughs) I feel like that quite often.

Chelsea: That’s good!

El: And it's not always, it's not always just because it's a big name, or, or, or something. I mean, obviously, the show I referred to before with Harvey, that was incredible, because somehow managed to convince the whole organisation to let us build an entire dance floor over the seating, transform the venue into a club, which is, you know, from a conservative classical music venue to that it's quite a journey. But you know, even just getting artists like Holly Herndon, or Robert Henkey artists who are just like really innovative and exciting and doing really strange, curious things and to get them into our hall, which can be considered, you know, very rigid and proper, and to get artists in there doing something else that always gets me really excited. I'm like, yes, we're gonna have this really, no, they might not be the best-selling shows, but they're the most interesting and exciting I think.

09:24

Chelsea: So the opposite of that without naming names, unless you want to name has there been any experiences with artists or producers, you know, times where you've just thought I'm never ever working with these people again. Or dp people behave themselves because they're like, I'm at the recital centre. I better behave myself.

09:46

El: So yeah, people behave themselves and sometimes it's almost too much when they're like, if you know if there's an artist on stage, and they're like, Oh, I'm feel like I'm in high school and I'm presenting and they, you know, they say that and then the audience will feel so uncomfortable, but people tend to be behave themselves in our space, which is fabulous. Of course, of course, you know, there's always somebody who drinks maybe a little bit too much before or whatever, or perhaps Yeah, an agent. That's a bit pushy. But I think, in general, that it's evolved. I mean, you know, working on shows 10 years ago, people were way worse behaved, and now there's no room for it. Those artists or those agents, just, they don't exist in this market anymore, or they've been pushed out because nobody wants to work with them. So yeah, I think all that, you know, they're agents that we work with, and therefore the artists that they choose, you know, when they bring along, they're just better behaved. They're just kinder and considerate and happy to be there.

10:45

Chelsea: Well, I like to think, a little bit more grateful than they used to be, just grateful to have a gig

10:50

El: they should have gigs, people should have gigs, but just to be, you know, polite and kind. And understand that, you know, we're all working in it together. So I think, I think there's been like a, you can feel that cultural shift, at least, that it's changing, and that it's not so much of a, ‘I should be here and you should be paying me this’. It's like, how exciting we can do this together.

11:12

Chelsea: contemporary music, but also, classical and jazz are known to have issues in terms of gender representation. However, the program at MRC always features a really diverse mix of artists, which is something I've always noticed and really loved about the venue. Can you tell us how the centre navigates inclusivity in terms of programming?

11:32

El: Yeah, I mean, diversity is one of our main drivers in how we program. And it's really interesting being in a venue because we get 365 days to program content. And some weeks I look at the program, and I'm like, well, this is a real dude fest this week. But I have to look at the greater picture and go, oh, next week's, like all female, how incredible or whatever, we're so lucky that we've got so much space and time to kind of program that we have to always be checking in to make sure what we're programming is diverse and of course, gender is one of those main diversity targets that we actually track and count and follow and make sure that we're hitting a good gender parity, especially with not just the performance, but also the repertoire that we perform, making sure we're representing female composers in that classical space. And then, you know, all the other kind of diversity things come into it. Something that like the team, and I always talk about is, who are we missing? Because the venue is meant to be representing Victorian music and international music? And are we actually showing the breadth of it all? are we hitting all that market? And that's, you know, that's what keeps us going. And when we get proposals through to us, we're always looking like, what is the mix of what we're selecting? And yeah, who are we missing? Have we got, are we representing this group, the best we should be other people we should be talking to in certain communities, you could bring different artists to us. You know, I can't represent a diverse program, I'm one person, you know, it's trying to find the right people to partner with to make sure that diversity is there, and so working with organisations that can bring us other cultural groups or, you know, festivals that can bring us different things, is kind of the best way to do it to collab with people.

13:22

Chelsea: A space like MRC, it's really high profile in the public eye and the music community. Have you received a lot of commentary around programming decisions? And how have you dealt with any negative feedback?

13:35

El: It's interesting, yeah, where we're a government owned building. So we're basically government and with that comes responsibility, but a bit of an anonymity like, because we kind of trying to program for audiences, we're not as bias as say, like, I'm an artistic director who's got a full vision, and it's just what I'm wanting and what I'm putting out. So there's not so much personal, it's not as personal. It's kind of a shared value system through the organisation of what we want to achieve. And it's shared through all of us what we're trying to get to. And so the any kind of negative press that would come back for our organisation is kind of really taken on board. We're quite lucky. We ask a lot of so we do a lot of surveys. We do a lot of trying to capture information from audiences and industry. And we're really lucky that we're in this kind of space, that's, I guess that's the other thing, we’re small, we might be a pretty, you know, special little space, but we're not the art centre, who have got so many eyes on them from tourism, so much pressure on them to present such a diverse kind of arts offering. We're really lucky that we're just focused on music. We're only 1000 seater, we're never going to get bigger artists than can fit that space, so we can really be quite focused,

Chelsea: and more niche

El: and more niche and so we don't come at under much scrutiny in that sense, because it's kind of like we were just functioning as best we can in this little tiny world. Some people get annoyed that their programs are not in being presented. And we do give a lot of feedback to artists who we don't accept their proposals, we explain why we think that there shouldn't be in and some are happy about it, some aren't. But we like to actually explain our choices as well, we're pretty transparent. We have reasons why we don't select shows, because they're maybe not ready for it here yet. Or that diversity mix. We've just got too much of something at the moment. And it doesn't fit, which is fine. But it's good to be able to provide feedback. So yeah, transparency is really important in our choices.

15:43

Chelsea: When do you think an artist is ready to do a show in a venue like Melbourne Recital Centre?

15:48

Yeah, well, you know, as we said, we've got those two spaces, we've got the hall 1000 seats and the salon 140. And both spaces, whilst we're like pro kind of grassroots artists, getting people up building audiences, we still think that an artist should have had, you know, a fair bit of experience before coming to us, just because of the presentation style that that you're under once you perform here. It's a unique experience, you know, it's a seated venue, audiences are here to do nothing, but listen to your concert, there's no bar, there's no other kind of background stuff going on. It's full 100% focus on what you're doing. So we have, you know, teenagers through development programs and stuff perform with us, though. So we kind of look at all career paths, you know, moments can come through, but we like to think you know, that the artists that we're presenting are at a kind of level, where they're, you know, in the salon, it's local artists who are building their market. In the hall, obviously it's a bit more challenging, there's 1000 seats to sell, so you'd want some market behind you some experience to prove that you can sell good numbers. We also looking at that for career paths. So teens through development programs performed with us, artists in their 90s have performed with us, you know, so it's a huge breadth of where we're trying to get into people. But we and we like to support the artists that we come in through the salon program, especially, it's kind of like a artist development program as well. So once you're selected in we kind of work with you on things like marketing and helping you with grants and letters of support and all that sort of thing. So we're, you know, we're taking on half the work with you to make sure it's developed.

17:33

Chelsea: So it's a real partnership approach.

El: Yeah.

Chelsea: So in terms of putting together a proposal for a show within MRC, is it fair to say something that is creating a unique experience that's different from other shows that you might be doing elsewhere would be an advantage? What are some other things that people could consider when developing a show? That's kind of a bespoke offering for MRC?

18:00

El: Yeah, I mean, we assess across a few criteria, one of them is, yeah, what is the experience? And is it unique? Does it fit within the venue, which we mentioned earlier, like, perhaps don't propose a 20 piece brass band to perform in the salon? It just wouldn’t  work. It's just too loud. You know, like, think of the actual venue. Think of the venue and what can work best in that venue. The salon is fantastic when things are stripped down, and the less is more really in that space. And yeah, what is what is your program concept? Like? What is your thematics? What are you thinking? What do you want to achieve with the, you know, the proposed repertoire you want to play? Or, you know, is this part of a little mini tour that you're promoting an album with? Like, what is going to be the special thing about it being in Melbourne and being in that venue? And it doesn't always have to be ‘Oh, great. I'm gonna add some lights and projection’, although it might be but it's probably more about how, who am I going to work with? Who am I? How am I going to talk to audiences about this experience? What are people going to expect when they get here? And really thinking of like, yeah, that audience experience once they're here?

19:09

Chelsea: The last few years have been incredibly difficult for the live sector. Can you tell us how MRC navigated this time?

El: Yes. (laughs)

Chelsea: I mean, it's, you know, the most difficult time really in the life performance scene for at least 100 years.

19:24

El: Yeah, it's been incredible, hasn't it? I mean, we we're not alone in all of that, obviously, everybody was going through it. And we were, you know, grateful to maintain our jobs, which was really lucky as our full timers, our casual staff, obviously, that was a lot harder for them. But when you're working in programming, and your entire purpose is to plan and to dream and to think in the future and to lock in things that are going to happen, and to, you know, design experiences and that's all gone you - you're pretty much left with nothing, except for rescheduling, and rescheduling, and cancelling, and cancelling and cancelling. And that takes. I mean, obviously, it takes a financial toll, yeah, artists, it takes a huge emotional toll on the team, when everything you're doing is cancelling, it's the complete opposite to what you are there to do. And it was two years of paper shuffling. Really, oh, let's postpone your show to next six months when maybe we'll be back. It's not that, okay, we're postponing it again for another six months. And here's some more paperwork. Yeah, it was really, really hard. And, and it was really hard, you know, everyday talking to artists who are losing their gigs. So we're hearing it 300 times over, you know, for, you know, 600 concerts we had, we're hearing that experience. So that was really hard. Our development team were incredible though, during that period of time, our marketing development team set up a local artist appeal fund to support our local artists. So everyone who had a concert in the salon, were paid their guaranteed fee if their show was cancelled, which was fantastic. So that was a huge fundraising campaign that brought in quite a lot of cash from our incredible donors to support that. So they were busy doing that, obviously, operations were in a really hard place when their job is to put on the show on the show doesn't exist, that's even harder. There's not much else you can do. So yeah, it was really, really difficult. The return was really hard as well. The return was like a horrible whiplash. I think when you know, suddenly, we're open and go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go go. It was almost harder than just the quiet time because.

21:40

Chelsea: I think it was, too. Yeah, it was stop start.

21:44

El: It was stop start, it was like, during that time, there was huge staff turnover, internally and externally. So you whip lash back into it. And then there's all these new people working going, how do we do our job? How do we put on shows again, how do I or whoever you're talking to is like, oh, what's this clause in that contract mean? Or how does this work? And everything that you want to do was taking three times longer than it would in the normal thing, but you're having to go go, go, fill up the calendar, bam, bam, bam, everybody wants to show so that was really hard. And I'd say only in the last two to three weeks has that stopped. I feel like now people are in their roles, they know their jobs. People have remembered how to put on shows things are slowly coming back. And it's only starting to feel like okay, we're back to planning things and people know what they're doing. And we’re back, but yeah, that was really hard that, that flashback back into it.

22:45

Chelsea: And how did you cope? Because it is a really horrible thing to be cancelling on people and the uncertainty of the whole thing. I mean, did you have moments where you thought I love the live sector, but maybe it's time to go back into policy or something else?

23:05

El: (laughs) Um, well, I was like, you Chels I was pretty busy, luckily, with a child. So personally, I could, you know, sign off at the end of the day and be like, Well, okay, now I'm gonna play with my newborn and have fun with a baby. And maybe I don't really need work, and maybe I'll just be a stay at home mum, maybe that would work for me (laughs). But, you know, it was hard. And it's, I think, I mean, I've always wanted to work where I'm working. So I'm really happy to be there. And I wanted to get through it and see what was gonna happen on the other side. But, you know, lots of colleagues left and tried new things and kind of made sideways moves as well, just to learn something new, like to learn new faces or new processes or, or something new, and it wasn't that they had any problems with the job that they were in. It's just they hadn't learned anything for two years. And they were just stagnant.

24:01

Chelsea: Yeah, I had a mate that got a job at a festival in, you know, late 2019. And worked for the festival for two years, but there was never a festival.

24:13

El: what, oh my god

Chelsea: It was cancelled every year, yeah. So she's like, oh, yeah, I worked for this festival but never actually delivered a festival and now I’m working somewhere else.

24:23

El: (laughs) oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, we've had stuff that, you know, until we open had never done a show with us and have been there for two years as well, like, it's, it's wild, isn't it? Oh, I've never seen a show at MRC. But I've been working here for two years.

24:36

Chelsea: It's crazy. I'd really like if we can, to go back in time in your career. Can you tell us about your time in Norway?

24:46

El: Yeah, sure. Norway. I moved to Norway just on a whim because Norwegians. I'd met a couple of Norwegians and they seemed really nice and friendly and it kept winning like the most livable country. The most livable city, Oslo and I knew nothing about it, and thought, well, let's go live there. And check it out. So just moved there. And it was incredible. It was such a wonderful, I mean, I was in my early 20s. And was everybody there was so wonderful and so kind and friendly. And we moved to Oslo and I started working at just like a, this great live music venue, they're actually called Revolver, it's like a pub bit like the Corner in the city and worked at the bar. And then through that met some great people who were running a music festival called Hover festival, which is kind of like a Big Day Out vibe festival that they have, in these incredible fjords. I mean, it's not big out, like, visually, it's not Big day out musically, it was a bit Big Day Out-ish. So managed to work on that festival and marketing and it was fabulous. It's such a good time. And it was just, you know, when you live somewhere else, and you can kind of be whoever you want to be when you overseas in your 20s and are so fortunate to just kind of fall into a really great creative group of friends who are all doing fabulous things and would just bring me along for the ride. So I had such a wonderful time there and I think it was, it was probably the first time that I worked, yeah, on reflection was the first time I worked in music in the music industry, really, I'd always worked in arts or arts policy or marketing and I always thought I'd work in theatre or something like that. And music just seemed too great to an option. Like as if I'd ever worked in music. That's too cool. Too fun. But yeah, gave me the experiences that ended up leading me into continuing to work in music.

26:48

Chelsea: And how do you think that time influenced your work style today?

26:52

El: Um, this, it's a really good thing. I think you just have to be a bit courageous, don't you? And I think when you're young, and you, you know, you just put your whole heart into something and get involved and try new things and it always works out quite well. Like you can learn new things. And I think that's probably it as well, always trying to challenge yourself trying to expand you know, don't get comfortable. Think about what else you could be doing. You know who else you could be meeting living somewhere where you know, that their English is absolutely incredible. Of course, it's almost like their first language, but it was their second language. And so you live somewhere where you've got to get over communication. So you're just kind of meeting people and, you know, getting to know people not through language immediately. So I think all those skills come in handy. Yeah, just putting yourself out there.

27:52

Chelsea: So you said you thought you'd work in arts and theatre, not music, and you sort of accidentally got this gig doing media liaison and marketing for a festival in Norway? I mean, that sounds insane. (laughs)

El: Yeah. (laughs) very lucky.

Chelsea: Where does your music knowledge come from? You know, how does someone who grows up in Perth and works in policy, end up at a festival in Norway and then programming manager of the recital Centre in Melbourne? You know, where does you music knowledge come from? Are you from a musical family?

28:25

El: I mean, my, my parents have always loved music. And I've got, you know, behind me is half the record collection. But I think I'm just a huge fan and have always been a huge fan of music and live music in particular, like, you know, it's going to gigs and everything. And as I said, it always felt too close to me to be a career path. Just my love for music felt to like, that's just who I am part of me as if that's something that you'd work on. It's just who you are. Not a player of music. And in fact, I probably did everything I possibly could to avoid my music lessons. Growing up, I did not like my music teacher. And I tried my hardest to avoid that. But it was a huge regret now, but yeah, so I've always just, like, been immersed in music, like forever, and I've loved it so much. And so yeah, getting the opportunity to work in and I was like, Oh, wow, this is cool. This is somewhere that I actually maybe I could work in music. And after Norway went back to the Department of culture and the arts, working in policy, and again, was very lucky on holiday in Melbourne got offered to work on what on Melbourne Music Week, and, of course, jumped at that opportunity as well. So kind of falling into the industry. Both times. It's very lucky, but I always feel a bit like a fraud thinking that I work in music, still. Like I still think you know, I'm working in programming, and it's music or you know, I've still got this, I don't know, perhaps it's because I'm not a player that I feel that I like a fraud.

30:01

Chelsea: It just sounds like imposter syndrome

El: and yeah

Chelsea: musicians feel that as well. Trust me.

El: Great.

Chelsea: Musicians at Melbourne recital centre are thinking, ‘Why am I at Melbourne recital Centre, any minute Els going to say ‘I made a mistake’

30:18

El: laughs

Chelsea: speaking of Melbourne Music Week, you were part of the team for over five years, what were some of your biggest learnings do you think from working on that program which was a celebratory festival of everything Melbourne?

30:32

El: It couldn't have been a better festival to work on for Perth girll honestly coming to Melbourne

30:38

Chelsea: and was interesting, a French woman and a chick from Perth

30:42

El: (laughs) yes, and we came up against quite a lot at the beginning for sure we came up against that we weren't Victorians but I feel so lucky to have been able to get to know the industry. So well through that event, like all the venue's promoters, everyone, it didn't just focus on one area, and it tried its best to represent all of Melbourne. So, everyone, yeah, the people I met through Music Week, it's, you know, it's incredible gave me a huge respect for the industry here and how hard working it is, and how many people are involved and how many incredible people are behind the scenes doing stuff. I love that event. And it's, you know, speaking in my heart, and actually, I'm embarrassed as opposed to it behind me of warehouse. I just realised, I am so grateful to have worked on that event is really, really incredible festival.

31:30

Chelsea: And what do you think the biggest learnings were from that?

31:33

El: Oh, yes, biggest learnings. I mean, it's probably just, just about the people, I think how collaborative work can, you know actually achieve some really great things. There's always somebody amazing in Melbourne, you can work with to do something incredible, in wherever, whichever area you want to look into, you know, there's an expert on everything. And if you can work with them, then you're going to achieve some really incredible things. And I think that event also helped be, in a programming sense, understand, like what our role is as a programmer. And it's to deliver that unique experience to give people a really interesting experience both artists and audience. Because again, that festival took a long time to like, really, we really had to be strong on why it existed. And that was, we really had to argue for it at the beginning. Because there's so many venues, there's so many industry already doing fabulous things. So why would a festival come in? To do it?

Chelsea: Yeah, especially a council initiative.

El: Yeah, a council festival. Exactly. Like what? Yeah, what purpose does the council festival have, when there's already so much happening? And I think you nailed it when you said it's a celebration, but it's like a time to focus on things, but it's also a time to take the resources of a local council and do something that somebody couldn't do otherwise,

33:01

Chelsea: which makes sense. Yeah. When you, you know, when you phrase it like that. Yeah, I think there's definitely some, you know, differing opinions on how you can celebrate music within the city of Melbourne when Melbourne is considered the live music capital of Australia and a key Music City globally. So there is music happening every week. And then all of a sudden, it's all this is Melbourne Music Week. And then it's like well isn't every week Melbourne Music Week. I think one of the really interesting parts of Melbourne Music Week was always ‘The Hub’ and where the hub was going to be, and using different spaces to put on these unique experiences, which then of course, is going to have this criticism of, well, now you've just invested all this money in setting up this pop up venue that's not supporting a venue that's doing the hard yards, the other 51 weeks of the year, but it was always this really unique thing like come to St Paul's Cathedral or whatever the venue space was the State Library and use these other spaces. So I feel like a lot of your career has been programming in these spaces that people who visit Melbourne or live in Melbourne feel very connected to.

34:09

El: Yeah, I've been so blessed to be in some of these spaces and put on shows where I've put on shows it's wild to think about

34:16

Chelsea: How do you think space affects music?

34:20

El: Yeah, it's, it's so important. It's not just a gimmick. Like, it's not just like, hey, let's bring music into the library and ‘ta-da, how cute is that?’ It's like this space, like you said, is really connected to people. People have got really strong feelings about you know, they love the library, for example, or, and to bring music into it and to bring that space alive in a different way is so wonderful, like music can transform any space. It's not the space that's transforming the music. It's the opposite way, it's the music is bringing life to these spaces that haven't, you know, you haven't had the opportunity to kind of look at that space in that way. And so yeah, like putting on loud music in a library, how incredible. And seeing how the library responds to that and how audiences respond to that is really amazing. Bringing music to a train station. Like, how incredible when we had Flagstaff, we had a party in Flagstaff station, like, just some of these spaces are so amazing and it's yeah, it's two way. It's like, let's bring artists in, who can really bring life into this space, and to really, like, showcase his space in a different way. And then, of course, how great for an artist to play in such a wild space. And to try and make it sound good, too. That was always a challenge.

Chelsea Yeah and do something different

35:39

Chelsea: you also worked on the Gertrude street projection festival for a few years, which is a beautiful event throughout winter where you can walk down the street and see these some very quirky and some very beautiful projections along the street. I mean, how different was that for you to work with projection artists versus musicians?

36:02

El: Well, yeah. (laughs) Well, I was actually lucky. So I, when I worked with them, I mean, I did some marketing, to start with which was all projection artists. And then, for a couple of years actually put on a music program to align with the, with the festival, which was really great, so obviously, that brought in projection artists and combined production artists with musicians. That event is so beautiful. It's so lovely. And projection. artists, artists use projection. You know, that's it. There's another huge kind of area in Melbourne as well, another wonderful group of people doing incredible stuff. And it just brings again, it just brings people together. When that street is occupied, it's just buzzing, there's so many people out in the middle of winter, it's raining, it's freezing cold, and everyone's there just to explore this kind of, and that's the great thing about that festival was everything was kind of like as you said, quirky or unique or like hidden or, you know, you had to seek it out, or you found these little experiences. And I just loved that. I love that kind of exploring art that you can find. I really loved working on that event and yeah, projection artists. Gorgeous, just lovely. But different challenges. Finding projectors is like,

so expensive.

Chelsea: Yeah, completely different from hiring backline. And that sort of thing.

El: Yes. Absolutely.

Chelsea: Changing direction completely here. But given the podcast, you know, we do talk a little bit about gender. I'm wondering if there's been any times in your career, particularly working in the music space where you thought you've been treated differently because you're female?

37:44

El: Oh, for sure. positively and negatively. You know, I've always been the young, blonde girl, and I'm not so young now but I used to be. But you know, the young girl in the room that doesn't know what she's talking about vibe. And that was really challenging. That's always been challenging. I've had big promoters yell at me on the phone about not accepting some of their shows, and that I don't know anything and all that sort of thing. Which you just know, would not happen if a gentleman was holding the phone. In the room, I think I've always been lucky to be surrounded by incredible female colleagues, as well, who just taken it on the chest, and, you know, being next to us through all of that, you know, sometimes it works in your favour, because you can, you know, you've got a creative way of thinking you can juggle lots of things, you've got a great group, you can, you know, get close to your colleagues. You don't have to fight things out as much or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, gender always plays into what you're where you are. I think there's still an element of ‘she's a young girl, and she doesn't know what she's talking about’. That's present.

38:57

Chelsea: And how do you deal with a cranky entitled promoter? Why don't you just book my show El?

39:05

El: (laughs) Why don't you just book my show? Yeah, that's it's amazing. The entitlement that comes with being an old white man. Those kind of conversations leave you shaky and stuff. But I've been doing this long enough that I know why I've make decisions. And why. And I'm confident in being able to say, look, I only get to book 30 shows in the Hall per year. I don't have to book everyone that you tell me or anybody that you tell me. And I'm not going to book this person because this, this and this, and then you just hang up the phone. But, you know, you've I think you just talk those things out with friends and stuff, and you get through it. And then, you know, that particular promoter pretty much sucks up to me now as well. I think after standing my ground after such a horrible conversation, and so, I mean, that's not the way to earn respect, like to be abused. But you know, as long as you can know why you're doing something and have confidence in yourself, those conversations aren't as hard as they could be.

40:10

Chelsea: So it's interesting, you mentioned confidence, because that's something, you know that that does come up quite a bit in the conversations we have on the Control podcast. Where do you think you get your confidence from?

40:23

El: Oh well, you know, I say, I have confidence in what I'm doing, maybe not confidence in myself (laughs), but I think, I don't know, I think I've always just been surrounded by really great people who have, you know, family, friends who have said, you do a good thing, and that's built my confidence. Getting, making wins, you know, it's always great. When shows go well, and people like their experience or ticket sell, you know, that, that all helps with your confidence. Or they can't take it personally, as we were saying before, it's, sometimes it's a bit hard to know what's gonna sell. But I think, just with experience comes confidence, doesn't it? The more you do, the better you feel in a role.

41:04

Chelsea: So do you celebrate the wins, because it's just, you know, this constant cycle, in a role that you have, where it's just, every day, every week, it's rinse repeat, you know, book show, deliver show,  do the reconciliation for the show, do the report next show like, and you're in all of those phases all the time. Like, you're always, you're always doing programming and event delivery.

El: yep, yep

Chelsea: If you're doing a festival, you've got a programming period, and then a delivery period. And you know, you're just in all of those stages continuously. So how do you ever feel like, you know, triumphant? Yes, I nailed this! time for a wine!

41:42

El: (laughs) Yes, it's so true. It's such a different world to go from festival timings to a nonstop venue, we’re so guilty of not celebrating as much as we should. And also not taking enough time to reflect on things. That's something that I'm conscious of as well, because we can, you know, definitely want to take time to celebrate, but also take time to figure out what went well, and what didn't. But there's not much time you have to just move on.

Chelsea: Yeah, how do you do that?

El: It's hard, you have to really carve it out, you have to carve that time out. I mean, there's key moments in the year that you can reflect. Financial year, for example, end the financial year, end of budgeting

42:23

Chelsea: oh yeah there’s heaps of time for that when you are like surrounded in receipts and stuff and you can reflect, what?

El: you know, like you can actually see the numbers, you can take a moment to see the whole year of what you've done, rather than just like what happened this week.

42:34

Chelsea: yeah but isn’t that depressing? Yeah. Because, you know, you don't want to look at your program nd it's all just numbers, because no, no, I really hate that about. To be honest, one thing I really don't like about programming roles is the financial aspect of it, which I know is part of the game. But when you're just looking at numbers of how many people saw this show, and how many tickets sold, and you've got a board of directors, or whoever, just looking at a spreadsheet, whereas if they didn't experience all of those shows, and some of them were really profound and amazing, and some weren't amazing shows, but they sold a lot. It's like, you can't just judge it all by numbers.

43:08

El: No, I completely agree with you. And it's true that that's quite often the only way it is judged, which is, you know, a bit rough. I mean, seeing shows, that's always a time to celebrate, in a way, like in a role like this. You know, you're planning you're like seeing and shows, you know, you have to carve out time to even see the shows half the time.

43:27

El: Yeah. How do you have time for that? You know, like, how do you kind of make sure that you take care of yourself and you don't have burnout? You know, you've got a young family, a job with a lot of responsibility, there are shows every night of the week. I mean, how do you ensure that you're still healthy and on top of your game?

43:46

El:  Yeah. I mean, you're always prioritizing and carving time out and figuring out what's achievable. I mean, we don't I don't get to see every show that I program, sadly. And I read the reports afterwards and ask everyone I know who went to shows to see how they went to understand. But yeah, you have to just, you know, see one or two shows a week. Make sure you like filling out that time flexing time were very flexible, like I've made a good flexible working arrangements. I still get time with my son and things. So it's just about yeah, it's a big juggle, though. It's such a juggle, and celebrating wins is yeah, we try and, you know, incorporate that into like little meetings. What's been good, what's worked and stuff but

44:32

Chelsea: bring out the croissants. (laughs)

44:35

El: (laughs) The croissants, the Tim Tams, have a wine on Friday. If anyone's in the office, you know, we don't do it as much as we should. But you're always just looking forward anyway. I'm always looking forward. It's I have to be in the headset. Were you thinking it the next thing?

44:53

Chelsea: I loved how you describe the role as it's a place for planning, but it's also a place for dreaming.

El: Yeah

Chelsea: I love that as a description of, of programming. It's, it's really true. I have one more question for you, which was just if you have any advice to share for someone who might be interested in a future career in programming or event delivery.

45:16

El: put on put anything on do put something on a party in your backyard or you know, the amount of rubbish events that I would put on doing random little things or booking a night at the Tote with my friends bands or trying to make up a magazine or something, you know, just do some things, trial and error but like, think about what you're trying to create. But I think you've just got to start small and do lots of little bits and pieces all over jump in. Take opportunities, say yes to random offers to work at strange places.

Chelsea: Go to Norway.

El: Go to Norway. It's so beautiful.

Chelsea: I really want to go

El: Yeah, it's so far away that I haven't been back to be honest, and it's just so far away. But I'll be back I’ll definitely do it.

46:11

El: So thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat with me on the control podcast.

46:16

Thank you, Chelsea It's been lovely