Xylo Aria

Produced by Chelsea Wilson

TRANSCRIPT:

CW: Hello. Hello. This is control the podcast, where we highlight incredibly inspiring creatives. Game changers and change makers in the music industry. I'm Chelsea Wilson, your host. So good to have your company. If this is your first time listening to control, welcome aboard.

I love to hear from listeners, please follow the control podcast on Instagram or Facebook. Or check out control podcast. com for transcriptions of each episode. I've got some exciting news to share. The control podcast will be recording live at The Soundbox Art Centre, Melbourne, as part of always live festival, Monday, November 27 from 11am.

I'll be joined by some incredible guests, more info to come in the following weeks. The lack of female and gender diverse producers has been a hot topic in the music industry since the release of the USC Annenberg Initiative report in 2020, which stated that only 2. 8 percent of record producers worldwide identify as female.

My guest in this episode is working to change those statistics. I'm talking to artist, producer, CEO, and entrepreneur. Xylo Aria. Creating her own company was not Xylo's original career plan, but after some disappointing studio experiences as an artist, Xylo was fired up to take control, learning production skills to self-produce her own work and maintain her creative independence.

It's an attitude she is now sharing. with a community of women around the world through her company, music production for women. In this conversation, I asked Xylo about the women in music production program and how she approaches managing a business while maintaining her own creative practice. This is Xylo Aria, in Control.

Xylo Aria, thank you so much for joining me on the Control Podcast. It's such a pleasure.

XA: Thank you for asking me, Chelsea.

CW: The last time I saw you was the Women in Music Tech Summit back in October, which was a two-day digital event. I attended on the Saturday and I met some incredible artists and producers and the vibe was fantastic. And I had full intention to join on the Sunday, but first thing in the morning, my water broke and I went with my baby Arthur, uh, who's actually here today as we're recording this. So that's why I was a no show. Um, so you might hear a little bit of him during our chat, but it was an incredible event, which I'd love to talk to you about.

But firstly, just to kick off our chat, I'm wondering if just to get really down to the bare bones on a basic level, could you describe for us what a record producer does versus a sound engineer?

XA: Yes. So the record producer, and I guess the job. It has probably changed a little bit over the years. Like I guess a little while ago, it would be more about sourcing everything that the record needed, whether it is finding the right musicians and everything that that album or single needed and putting that together and producing it in a similar way that you might think of maybe a film producer, which is kind of sourcing everything that that project needs.

Whereas now. Some producers would still do parts of that, but another form of music production is kind of like an electronic music producer that might be bringing everything that that song needs, but in a completely electronic way and creating that using a digital audio workstation. So, a sound engineer, I guess, might work in a.

In a studio and might be involved in the recording process of the song and understand the technicalities of the gear and equipment in a studio, whereas the producer will be overseeing the whole project as well. So I don't know if I've answered that really well, but hopefully that gives a bit of an idea of what what different people are doing.

CW: I think there definitely is confusion with some artists around what those roles mean and what they do because they can be so interchangeable. Most producers are sound engineers. As well. Uh, and sound engineers can specialize in live performance. So they're people that create a great sonic atmosphere at live shows. They don't do studio work a lot, do both, but producers are really involved in the creation of the song, right? So in terms of not only what it's going to sound like sonically, but. Contributing creatively. So they might also contribute as a songwriter or with the arrangement in terms of let's put some horns on this or let's put some percussion on this or all that kind of thing.

So they have bigger creative vision, but there's always a sound engineer involved in the record as well. So they usually work hand in hand. The statistics currently state worldwide that less than 2 percent of recording producers are female and around 5 percent of sound engineers identify as female. What do you think of when you hear those figures?

XA: Uh, to be honest with you, Chelsea, I feel like I've been around these stats for so long that, like, it just is what it is to me. Like, it doesn't shock me. It's not a surprise. It's just unfortunately that is how the situation is. Uh, is and, and it's, it is sad and it's very unfortunate that that's how it's played out.

But I think, um, even around all the work that we do with MPW, it's kind of unfortunately accepting the circumstance for where it is and thinking, what can we do about it from now to improve that for future generations.

CW: What do you think are the main barriers of participation for women in audio production specifically? You know, why do you think we're at where we're at?

XA: I think there are a few different contributing factors to that. And one of them is something that I didn't even realize was going on in my mind. When I first got into production as well was I just. I didn't see anyone that looked anything like me doing that job, so I think when you look out into a space and you can't find anyone that you can identify with, you immediately feel like it's not a place that's, uh, that's for you or that's, um, uh, that will welcome you.

So you might immediately dismiss it as a possibility of something you can do, and I still find this a lot with a lot of our students, for example. Uh, they, uh, something that they say is, Oh, I'll kind of get it to a demo stage and then I'll send it to a real producer. Yeah. And yeah, and, uh, and then it's kind of unpicking, why can't you be that real producer given you've already done 80 percent of the job, you know, like maybe just stick with it and, and take it all the way. It's just such a multifaceted issue.

Another one is the power dynamic in the industry has been for so many years that all the roles of control have been held by men and kind of typical sort of 50 year old white male sort of situation. And, um, in that way, I think there probably has been a little bit of gatekeeping going on, um, especially in these. production and studio spaces and, um, And because it's been that way for a long time, I guess there is the conversation around safe spaces as well. Maybe not every woman wanted or felt the desire to keep putting herself in that situation and then maybe not be taken seriously and be put down at times in these scenarios and have to fight every day to kind of just do her job.

And, uh, and I guess some people that kind of. Pioneering women in these areas have dealt with that and have, I have spoken to them about those times as well, which is not for everyone really to go through that battle all the time. So that's probably another thing and then also lack of communities where people felt that they could identify with and being the odd person out, it's kind of like a self fulfilling issue where there's already so few people and then there's few women that get into these spaces and that was something that I was finding as well, like a lot of the forums you'd go to and, and producer meetups and things, you'd often be the odd person out and then feel, yeah, feel like you don't really belong in that space and then that would kind of put me off even more. So yes, there's so many parts to that issue and where we are today.

CW: It definitely is multifaceted, and I think the response to that needs to be a multifaceted response, you know, from all areas of the industry across multiple roles is how do we work on achieving gender parity or improving the state of play? I also think, and I wonder around capital and access to wealth being a barrier to becoming producers because so often independent producers own their own gear and own their own studios. So if you're not someone with access to wealth to start building a studio and purchasing gear, it's hard to gain those skills. Also, you know, we know those statistics that many women are doing the lion's share of child care and domestic work within the home and a lot of budding producers have home studio spaces. So having your own space to even create a studio environment to teach yourself could be really challenging.  But now, and this is something that you discussed at the Women in Tech Summit is you don't need as much gear as you used to because technology has improved. What do you think are those bare minimum items that we could purchase to start producing ourselves?

XA: Yeah, and this is something that I really like talking about, because like you said, I think that thought process has carried on for a long time that you need to have a lot of technical outboard gear, which is expensive and you need space for it and all of that stuff if you don't have access to, um, a studio or regular access to a studio, but now so much is virtual and you don't need as much of that, but the absolute essentials are firstly a laptop, so something to actually produce on and secondly, some sort of Um, digital audio workstation or production software.

Um, and thirdly, something to listen back on. Um, so like headphones, like a decent pair of headphones won't set you back too much. And all of those things, you know, most people have a laptop these days. Maybe you need something a little bit more powerful than the average laptop. Um, but even the digital audio workstations, you can start with many free options that are out there as well.

So I think the funds that you have to  put down to get started is becoming less and less and I would say just start with something very small because it's a better idea to start there and build your studio rather than spending a lot of money all at once and then realizing you don't have the right thing.

CW: I've also noticed more and more that stores... like Store DJ or Manny's and places like this are doing more and more rentals, so it could even be possible to kind of, you know, rent an Apogee unit or, you know, rent a nice microphone and see if you like it first and then. Decide whether or not you want to invest in certain things and, and that is definitely an option that, you know, wasn't around, you know, 20 years ago when I did my undergrad degree and I was studying sound engineering and production alongside music, hiring gear was, was not an option like that.

The only way I could access a recording facility was by booking a studio. You know, this, that kind of gear didn't exist. So I think that democratization is definitely helping see more and more gender diverse people take a role. However, confidence is something that seems to be a theme that comes up alongside women's roles in the music industry more broadly, as well as in music production. And it's something that's come up quite a lot on this podcast. And I, I think just even using the term producer takes a certain level of confidence. And a lot of female artists that I work with. I would consider them to be producers, but they would never call themselves a producer because they're not sound engineers. So even though they're really directing how they want their songs to sound and how they want things to be shaped and they're leading the band and they've written the charts, the male sound engineer is getting the producer credit on the album because they sort of feel, well, he was the one turning the knobs. So therefore he's the producer. What role do you think confidence plays in the way that women are represented in audio production and in the music industry?

CW: Yeah, that's a really good, uh, good point there. Chelsea. And, and I do see this a lot of, uh, just calling, uh, yourself a producer. Women seem very scared to take that step and, and feel like it's not a label that they can attach to themselves and it takes a long time to, to break through that.

I guess this is wider than the music industry as well, like the stats that go around how many of the job requirements a woman will need to tick before she applies for a job as opposed to a male. Uh, so I think that's a wider thing that unfortunately we're in a space where we're already underrepresented.

It doesn't help the situation at all. So, um, it is something that even with our program that we run as well, something that we try and address, which is looking at the mental state and trying to get to the root of why you feel like you can't do that role or why you... May not feel like you identify with these titles and things and just trying to hopefully get at the end of that to a stage where people can feel like, actually there's no reason why you can't do that job and, and call yourself a producer as well.

So it, it is definitely, definitely an issue. And, um, I, I don't know what the solution is other than just. Just trying to put yourself in more uncomfortable situations and building that confidence for yourself unfortunately. A lot of people have also had not ideal situations with their own producers and that is a common theme for sure and that is one of the reasons I started MPW as well.

Um, and, and that shows itself in a variety of different ways whether it's. Power dynamic issues or, you know, just common themes around that or someone taking their vision and turning it into something totally different or, um, just essentially that artist losing control of their art. That is something that comes up a lot.

CW: I think one of the things that music production for women and, and some other advocates in the scene like yourself are doing though, is just by saying to other people, you are a producer, you're doing this. And until someone says that to you, maybe you don't feel like you can call yourself that. But when other people do you go, oh, maybe they're right. You know? And when we spoke to Anna Laverty on the podcast, she said the same thing that she was a sound engineer for many years until someone went, I'm not hiring you as a sound engineer anymore. You should just be the producer and you know, her manager just said to her, it's time for you to just call yourself a producer, you know, and even for someone like Anna that was something to overcome and I think sharing those stories and supporting each other and saying you can do this and and that's really what you're doing with the organization, which is incredible, but that takes a lot of confidence for you to not only stand up as a producer but start an organization that is leading in this way. How do you think you got your confidence?

XA: Um, To be honest, I'm not, uh, I don't think I really realized what it was exactly going to become with MPW and I just knew that there was this issue that I faced and I was wishing something like this existed for me when I started. The more I was thinking about that, I was thinking, you know, if it was something that could have helped me, then there probably are other people in the field that.

If it existed, it could benefit as well. So it just started with that. We talk a lot as well about understanding why you do something. And I think for me, it was, it was very clear on why I created this platform and what I wanted it to do and everything else. It's sort of, I worked out as it came to me. So at that time, I wasn't thinking about doing presentations to big rooms or, uh, or having to speak on different podcasts or, or anything like that.

So that, that's all just kind of come to me as it went. And one of the main reasons I actually took the plunge to get started. Was, um, a really close friend of mine passed away very suddenly. Sorry. Yeah, and, and those kind of things really jolt you to, to kind of do the thing that you really want to do.

And this idea was sort of on my mind for a while. And then after this happened, I was just thinking. I can't put this off anymore because if it's something that I want to do and I'll do it later in a few years time, like you, you really don't know. Like, do you have that time or not? So about two months after that happened, I quit my job and Friday was my last day. And Monday morning I sat down and I was like, well, I'm starting MPW. So, um, that's kind of where it started. Around the building confidence, at some stage I did start becoming, um, a bit more active in, in building that for myself and for me, just putting myself in certain positions once in a while that would push me a little bit out of my comfort zone was how I started to build that, whether it was Reaching out to someone that I was really scared to reach out to, or, uh, going to networking events and forcing myself to talk to people that maybe I wasn't so comfortable doing.

And I would consider myself very much an introvert, so those things didn't come that naturally to me, but I feel like I've put myself in enough of these situations that, that has sort of developed, uh, into feeling much more natural than it did at first.

CW: Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey to get to this point - so you're also a vocalist and a songwriter and a musician. And so when you first started recording and working with other producers, what was that experience like for you that made you go, you know what, I actually want to take the reins here myself?

XA: A lot of these situations, it just had this common theme of, it would sort of start out all good, and then eventually, slowly, slowly. It would get to a point where it was just a really toxic situation and I got to a point where I felt trapped in this, you know, producer artist relationship that I couldn't get out of and this person was just not treating me with the respect that I felt I deserved. And the worst part of it was feeling that you have to keep this person happy, even though they are not treating you well.

CW: Even though you're paying them.

XA: Exactly. So it's like... Who's working for you? Yeah, because there's this feeling that if this person leaves, that's the end of my project. And I really want to keep making music, so... I'm just going to allow myself to be treated like crap because, uh, you know, I need this person to do their job.

And I hated getting in those situations multiple times. And it got to a stage where I had almost an album worth of songs done with a particular producer and, um, and it was really heartbreaking to make that decision to eventually leave that, that kind of. Um, produce a relationship and then, um, to start all over again, but I, I, I remember the day that, that straw that kind of broke the camel's back and was like, I'm done. Like, I don't care if it's a year worth of work down the drain, but I need to take control of this because I don't want to be in this position again. It's really challenging.

CW: I've had a few unfortunate encounters as well. The thing that's most unfortunate is, you know, the financial side of it. As well as the, the time you've spent, but it's so expensive to hire producers and you go into it thinking this person's going to be amazing to work with.

And they're going to get my songs and take it to the next level. And that's why you've decided not to do it yourself because you think they're going to capture a better sound. They're going to. Really helped me expand this vision and create something amazing. And hey, maybe I'm going to make some money from this record, or it's going to help me get a tour.

It's going to help me go somewhere. And in the studio environment, as an artist, and you're trying to express yourself, you're quite vulnerable because you have to dig deep into some emotions to try and make an album that's going to resonate with listeners. So you're already kind of. Peeling off some layers in that moment and then to have a producer that's creating a situation.

That's uncomfortable or they're criticizing you and then you're paying them. It's a very complicated and very intimate relationship to especially if it's just working one on one. A lot of the time being comfortable is so important. Uh, I had a producer tell me once that just a running commentary on my lyrics and just saying, you're a bitch on this song. You just sound like an absolute bitch.

XA: Oh my gosh.

CW: And it's kind of like, well, it's a breakup song. And then I just. I'm sort of explaining myself. It's like, hang on. This is my song. Like I'm entitled to say whatever lyrics I want to, you know, how is that meant to be helping me get a good performance, you know, or then there's other producers who take forever, you know, they say they're going to do a mix and then six, eight months later, they still haven't delivered it. And then your project is just on this massive time delay. So you know, for artists who love the idea of producing their own work, but they're just not at that stage yet and they still want to work with other producers. Do you have any advice for them on how they can structure things like timelines and how best to go about choosing the right producer to work with?

XA: Yeah, well, I can give some thoughts. Obviously, I'm not an expert because I didn't that didn't work for me, which is why I went down the route of producing for myself, but I think finding someone through maybe word of mouth or someone through a recommendation maybe is better than going completely crazy cold off a Google search of some random person and maybe having a pretty upfront conversation of what you expect from the project rather than, you know, jumping straight into it and, and then realizing that the two expectations don't really align. Maybe that's good as well and, and sometimes I think.

Where things get complicated as well is if it's maybe just a friend and they've decided that they want to help you out and then there's kind of this, maybe not a contracted or more professional situation that you can rely on to say, hey, we need to get this done by certain point, um, where, where there may be just a friend.

And I do see this a little bit in, Artist-producer relationships as well and artists, you know, a female artist might say, Oh, it's just a friend that's going to help me out. But then, yeah, your project will always be the lowest priority. So maybe sometimes it's just better to establish that more professional relationship.

So yeah, maybe a few things that can help.

CW: Yeah, that's really useful. Yeah, I recommend avoiding mates rates as tempting as it might be. Also, just kind of think, if they're your mates, I prefer to pay them their full rate because I want to support my friends. So I prefer to pay them their full rate because they're my mate and for them to actually deliver whatever work it is that I'm engaging them to do at the same time with the same courtesy than they would a random stranger.

To me, it seems very strange that, Oh, it's mates, right? So therefore I don't pay you what you deserve. And the other flip side is because you're my mate, I can just. Stuff you around and not deliver your project within normal timeframes. I mean, how are you supposed to still be mates with that going on? You know, it's a very strange concept that happens a lot in our industry, which is not regulated, of course.

So, you know, the rates that producers can offer, and I think as well for women who maybe want to start offering services as producers or engineers might also not really know what those pay rates might be. And that that's a concern as well. How do you suggest that independent producers go about charging for services and how they should set those kind of rates?

XA: Maybe it's helpful to talk to people who are in the industry as well and and just seeing What is reasonable and what what are some other people charging to get a little bit of a benchmark for yourself? but also realizing really that the time that you put into a project It's not just the time that an artist is coming in to record and there's all the time around that that you need to think about as well Um, and not undercutting yourself, so it can be tricky because you also when you're starting out you want to just get your foot in the door and you're happy to do it at a really low rate and maybe that's it is okay to start with I guess maybe it's a competitive field and that kind of thing but to get to a point where if it is something that you want to live off maybe creating a budget and think if you do This number of sessions at this rate for the year, can you sustain off that?

And is that going to work for you to live off? I do love a good budget.

CW: In terms of music production for women and joining the programs, How do you feel that it complements with existing music production courses run by institutions such as SAE or COLLARTS, for example? Do you recommend that participants do this program in conjunction with a tertiary program or something they can do before tertiary or after tertiary?

XA: I feel like we've had people do things in multiple different ways that have joined us. And the reason working with us is structured the way it is, is for me, This was the kind of structure that would have worked for me as a student. So I was working full time when I was looking to learn to produce music as well.

So it didn't make sense for me to then stop my work and then join like either a part time or full time program that wasn't really in my capacity, but I would have loved to have something that would have worked alongside my work. That I could, um, join, you know, a weekly class, something like that, that can, um, help me to get the skills that I need.

And it's not, um, so maybe a more, uh, producer and engineering, um, related course that is a tertiary course that has a lot more, um, dedicated time that you need for it as well. Perhaps could also lead into a. role in a studio or something like that, but that's quite a different thing to what we offer as well.

So it seems like the main kind of people that come to us are artists that are looking to learn to produce their, their own music. A lot of it is in the box. So we're just using a DAW and it's not something that's very intensive that, uh, that can't be done around what they've already got going on in their life. So some people then have been more interested in the tertiary course and path after that because they've realized that, oh, this is something that I can do and it's really fun and I, and I love it and I want to learn more.

So that's great. Um, and some people have done tertiary kind of education, but it's been either, quite technical, or it's been, um, more around different parts of the music industry and they've just focused very little on production as well, um, that they're kind of looking to learn a bit differently from what we teach as well. So there are different ways that people have come to what we do.

CW: What have some of the biggest learnings been to date for you with setting up the Was there anything that came up that You were not expecting?

XA: Um, everything was, came up that I wasn't expecting. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I set this up.

Um, and yeah, everything has been new challenges that I wasn't, uh, wasn't aware of, like even setting up a online learning platform. Like I built the website, the members portal, all of that stuff because I didn't have a budget and, um, so I had no idea how to do any of those things and like kind of your domain and the DNS routing and, you know, all of the emails being set up, like all of that stuff.

I had no idea what was involved. Um, so it was working all that out. Um, And then even, I've learnt so much around marketing. How do you actually create a business, but then how do you find your customers? Without the customers, you don't exist as a business. So that is a very, very important thing to, to know and learn.

So, learnt a lot about that, about social media presence. I had no idea, you know, how to build that for a brand. Um, so everything. That we're doing now is not really a skill that I had before and and the only skills I had previously was around production, but also Accounting because that's what I studied in my degree so the business and the accounting side of things I I had down but every other skill that you need to run a business I learned along the way.

CW: That's brilliant. I feel like what you're offering with MPW is more than just Production that it's quite holistic. So even the tech summit that I attended there was information there about business and marketing and those other kind of aspects. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of that in terms of creating a career for yourself in production?

XA: Our program is about production. But again, it's sort of aimed at the artist that's looking to self-produce rather than, uh, a career solely in production. And if you are a self-producing DIY artist, you are running a business and you do need to know all of those skills that other businesses need, like marketing, like how to do your own PR and, and especially with the products that you have, which is your music. How do you actually come up with a release plan? How do you, how do you reach your audience? All of that is so important in developing yourself as an independent artist. So it's something that I feel like we, in a way, had to include in our program, if that's who we are, or if that's the audience that we're working with.

CW: What's the response been like since you set up NPW from the industry?

XA: I would say for the most part, quite supportive. And, uh, we've worked with a lot of different brands in different capacities now, and we've had a really good experience with, with most of them, I would say. And there are certain times where you'll meet the kind of traditional gearhead that's working at some, Organizations that you might be talking to one that I was kind of just really shocked by, um, how I was spoken to at a particular conference, but those things happen less and less.

And I think a lot of people in the industry, hopefully, especially around production and music technology can see from their own customer base that there significant disparity between women and men as well. And there do seem to be initiatives popping up in different, uh, different organizations that want to help and we have been reached out by a few of them as well to see how they can support what we do as well.

So, I'd say pretty positive. The only, in fact, really negative, um, messages that we've received have been from, unfortunately, Fellow female artists, um, that have found our page back in the day, it doesn't happen much anymore, but, um, people would find our page and I don't know why I get really offended by it and think, Oh, why is it for women?

Like we can think as well, you know. Just as well as men, and totally missed the point of what we were trying to do, but that doesn't really happen anymore. That's good. It used to get to me a lot back then, but now, like, honestly, I don't care. Like, if it's not useful for you, then don't engage with it.

CW: That's it. The fact is, is that there are a lot of women and gender diverse people who don't feel safe in studios or music industry environments. And we know that from statistics, from UK music, from Support Act. And so we know that. Those behaviours do exist in the industry and we know that that is a barrier for some women and gender diverse people from participating in production.

So maybe some women don't experience this and they don't feel intimidated, but for some other women, they thrive in an environment where they feel safe and would love to learn production in an all female environment. And so if that's the path that they want to take, I think that's completely legitimate, you know.

XA: Oh, yeah. I used to, like, write back these long responses explaining why we exist, but now, like, I just yeah, it doesn't bother me and there's no point wasting my time.

CW: So recently, Support Act released their guide to sexual misconduct, bullying and discrimination. What have you observed in the industry? Do you think we're getting somewhere with gender equity in a more even playing field?

XA: I think it is getting better. It's just, it's such a hard thing to really monitor. Like I speak to a lot of our students one on one and I feel like. Pretty much everyone seems to have some sort of story that they haven't told everyone or widely shared with someone else. So, it's a little bit hard to know, like, uh, I think we, we are moving in the right direction and, and things.

I feel more comfortable, I don't know if it's like my confidence growing as well, um, at the same time. But, I would not stand for any. treatment that I, I don't feel comfortable in, but I used to be in that stage and there are a lot of people that are experiencing these things quite regularly. Um, but when I speak to producers, female producers that have been in the field for a long, long time and I hear about what they went through, then I think it does show that we are moving in the right way.

And some of those things that happened quite often, I think. are a little bit less, thankfully, prevalent in the industry, but we still have a long way to go.

CW: I've got a couple of questions for you regarding your thoughts from a musician's perspective. I often hear musicians say that they don't want to work in the industry side of things or more behind the scenes roles because they're concerned about how their love of music or their songwriting will be affected.

How do you balance the duality of working as an artist as well as being a business owner? Does it affect your creative process? Do you find it hard to switch between the two?

XA: Yeah, that's a really good question, Chelsea. And to be honest, three and a half, almost four years into running NPW, I feel like I'm only slowly starting to work that out for myself.

Uh, it did, it did take a hit to my own creativity, uh, quite a lot because. Yeah, you, you, you're talking about music in a, in a different way, kind of day in day out. And like in your spare time, you don't really want to be looking at music again in a different way. And, and especially I think starting a business as well, it was very mentally draining and I felt like I was working really long hours and didn't allow myself to have.

And whenever I had a break, I needed to just like literally do nothing, not actually kind of sit down to, to be creative or anything like that. So all of that has become better and better as the time has gone on. And now this year, in fact, 2023, I've finally put two slots in a week in my calendar. For creating music and oh, and that's been really exciting.

And I've been, uh, I have kind of finished a couple of things that have been projects that have been half finished for such a long time. And, uh, and I feel lucky to be in that position now because I have a team who are great at what they do as well. And I have been able to delegate a few things that I was doing myself.

So. I'm not going to say that it's, it's easy and there's an easy way to juggle everything. And I, it took me a long time to work it out and um, and I'm only starting to do that now, but I'm, I'm excited about it and I'm excited about getting back into being creative.

CW: I really enjoy reading the weekly emails that you've been sending out because I feel like with your approach to how you communicate with the MPW community, there's a sort of holistic approach and also mindfulness and kind of tips on time management or your musings on certain things. And to me, that's a real point of difference with what you're developing, as opposed to a more standard, here's just an email about gear and some gear you can purchase. It's let's talk about being accountable. And that's the one I wanted to ask you about specifically. Can you talk to us a little bit about that - you wrote this piece on holding yourself accountable for those. goals. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that?

XA: Yeah, sure. Like all of these things are things that I think have improved my life significantly. And, uh, even though not all of them are perfectly, uh, tied in with music, I wish I knew some of these things earlier and the accountability definitely is such a. Um, driver for you to get things done and, and actually having someone, um, uh, to, to, to keep you accountable. And I've implemented that in, in different ways. And this year, for example, every month there are two friends that I have to keep me accountable with different parts of my life. One is more business and one is more, um, music.

And, um, and having those goals that we come up with at the start of every month and at the end of the month kind of checking in with this person and it being a two way street and keeping each other accountable has been really great

CW: and something that I think really increases your drive to get things done as well because, um, you are speaking to someone external and when we leave it to ourselves, um, we can often procrastinate

XA: Thank you. Yeah. Kind of talk ourselves out of it and think, Oh, it's been a busy week and I deserve a break or something like that, which may be true, but, um, it definitely helps having that external person to, um, to check in with.

CW: Accountability buddy.

XA: You could call it that.

CW: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I think for me, you know, my to do list just seems to get longer and longer that I have it divided into, you know, there's subheadings.

I mean, it's ridiculous, but I have, you know, this to do list that's a Google Docs and no matter what device I'm on, I can look at it because I used to have multiple bits of paper around. So now it's just the centralized Google Doc to do list. And you know, there's the section on things to do for the podcast, things to do for Women of Soul, things to do for my upcoming gigs, and then a home family section of, you know, life admin stuff I've got to do. Where does songwriting come on that list? You know, it's, it's not even on the list and it's. It's so easy for that to be the absolute last thing on the list that never gets done. And I think that putting in designated calendar time like you've done and having that accountability buddy is so effective.

Um, and another thing that you can do, you know, like the accountability buddy is to have a mentor. How do you think someone could go about finding a mentor or somebody that's also an artist that is producing to work with? Do you recommend people try and reach out to do internships or to shadow other producers?

XA: There's different ways you can go about it, I guess. And, um, for me, the mentors that I've sort of found in my life have some of them been People in the industry that I just really admire and I've just reached out to just really genuinely being like, I think what you do is incredible and I'm so inspired by you.

Could I grab a half an hour coffee or like chat with you just to pick your brain a little bit? And I think if you're nice enough about that email and you're just genuinely interested in what someone has achieved in their career. Um, sometimes this person might have the ability to have a chat and I think often people that have been in the industry for a long time realize that some people have helped them along the way as well and are, and some of them have told me as well, are keen to give back in a way but they don't really know how to do that and then someone's reached out to them and they're like, oh yeah, you know, I'll Um, so. You could just create those situations for yourself. Uh, of course there are lots of great, um, mentoring programs out there as well. And I'm involved in one this year, women in music mentoring program in Australia, and that's such a great initiative. I think this year for it this year, but, um, it's been really, really fun working with a few mentees through that.

And just understanding, uh, what they need and doing my best to try and help them and create what they want in the career as well. And, um, so there are these formalized programs as well, which are, which are great if you can get onto them. Sometimes, obviously, they can be a bit competitive with a lot of people applying.

And I think trying to find mentors in your, in your life as well for different aspects of your life can be really useful as well. Like, for example, there's one mentor I have that's. It's very much around business, who I'm learning from a kind of course that I enrolled in, um, that has taught me about that and another mentor that I have around accounting specifically and another around, you know, few in the music space that I really admire as well.

So realizing what certain people's strengths are and maybe having specific mentors for different areas can be helpful as well.

CW: I think as well, not being scared to ask because people can only say no, but I think if you've got good intentions and good manners and a respectful of people's time, a lot of people feel very complimented when you ask them for advice because you're basically saying, I think what you do is fabulous or I think you're fabulous and I think you have a lot to offer and I'd love to chat to you and people find that quite complimentary.

You know, I've definitely reached out to people over the years and you can always offer to pay people as well for, you know, I just say, can I, can I pay you for a consult to sit with you for an hour and ask you some questions? And, you know, some people say, sure. And other people say, look, I'm happy to have a coffee and I'm not going to charge you, you know, cause I think it's quite cyclic, as you're saying, you know, you mentor people, people mentor you, and I definitely recommend that no matter what stage you're at in your career, that there's things you would have learned along the way that you can reach out and help somebody who might be more emerging. And it's not about age because you could be 55 and it's not about age it's about what experiences you can share with other people. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

XA: And you mentioned a really good point there as well of like Not taking it personally if someone doesn't get back to you. I think immediately people think like oh, no, you've made a fool of yourself or something like that, but So many times it's not about you at all like maybe this person is just really busy and that's okay and just Um, realize that maybe if you send 10 emails, you might get one response or two responses or something like that, but don't feel discouraged by that and, and just keep going and, and someone will eventually want to help you.

CW: And just go to events and say hi to people as scary as that might seem. Um, you know, or go to an MPW event that's, you know, digital and be in those chat rooms and say hi because everybody's kind of in the same position. You know, and I always think even if you go by yourself, but you never really alone when you're at one of these events because you're with all the other people who are also looking for like-minded people to connect with, and especially where we're at now in this kind of, you know, I hate the term post pandemic because there's still a pandemic and there's still plenty of people, um, feeling unwell, but we're sort of in this, you know, different time than we were a few years ago. So a lot of people were a little bit out of practice, um, some of us with being social again in that way.

And if networking was a tricky thing for you three years ago, it might be even trickier now, but, you know, we're all. Feeling that as well. So I think a little bit of just fake it till you make it and be brave, be bold and say hi. And then, you know, see what happens. I've got one more question for you. And I'm just really curious to know what you've been listening to and in terms of artists or producers or, you know, records over the last year or so that you have been cranking up.

Um, I think Sia’s new album has been really incredible and there are some tracks off that I just, there's so much going on, like nuance with like different vocal sections and ad libs and harmonies that have been really inspiring. Like I'm keen to.

I don't know, maybe take some inspiration from that and use it in my own creativity in these two slots that I have in the week. Um, but yeah, so I think that that's been a big one. Xylo, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me on the Control podcast.

XA: It's been such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

That was Xylo Aria, In Control. Please check the show notes for links to MPW and more information. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could leave a review on your favourite podcast platform. It helps others to find the podcast. This episode was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people, and I extend my deep respects to all First Nations people.

Both: Yay.

CW: And the little guy just crashed out after about five minutes.

XA: Oh, wow. Oh, he was incredible.