Lynne Small

Produced by Chelsea Wilson.

TRANSCRIPT:

Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring creatives, game changers and change makers in the music industries. Chelsea Wilson here, your host and in this episode we are chatting with COO of ARIA and  PPCA, Board Director of The Copyright Council and Support Act, Lynne Small.

With a strong background in finance, Lynne’s career started at Mushroom Festival Records. But for the past few decades she has worked across both ARIA - the Asuatralian Recording Industry association and PPCA  the phonographic performance company of Australia respectively. In this conversation I ask Lynne how Australian artists can achieve chart positions in the ARIA, how albums and singles get nominations for the ARIA Awards and how streams and downloads are counted towards the charts. We also talk about the Radio Fair Play campaign, the current record industry lobbying to change the government mandated caps on fees radio pays to recording copyright owners and the importance of being a PPCA member. This is Lynne Small in Control. 

CW: Lynne Small, welcome to the Control podcast.

LS: Thank you. Good to be with you.

CW: So great to see you. I haven't seen you since Indie Con last year, which does feel like a million years ago. How have you been?

LS: Pretty good. It's been another very busy year. They seem to get faster and faster. Um, I think the pace for everyone is incredible these days. So well done. All of us are keeping up, I think, or trying to at least.

CW: So Lynne, you are the Chief Operating Officer of both Recorded Music Bodies, PPCA and ARIA. Can you please chat us through the relationship between those two? Really, the relationship is about some common, I suppose, directors, uh, and that has often been the case.

I mean, just to go back a step, ARIA is at its essence just an industry association. So it's an association of basically record labels or people who own and control rights in recordings or distribute them. ARIA is really all about membership and ARIA does things like, you know, the charts. These are the things that it's known for, doing the charts and putting on the ARIA awards every year, staging that event.

Uh, but ARIA also does a lot of work in terms of advocacy, um, and trying to promote the interests of the recording industry. So that's sort of ARIA's area of business. PPCA is quite a different organisation. It is in fact a collecting society, which is a particular type of beast. Uh, so PPCA is a not for profit that's involved in representing the rights, once again, of sound recordings and licensing them and returning the money that we collect to labels and also Australian recording artists.

So, the equivalent, I suppose, of, uh, PPCA would be APRA. You know, we play in the same space. Um... The equivalent of ARIA in that case would be Ampel, which is the Publishers Association. So they have quite different, um, you know, both very concerned with the success of sound recordings, but both completely different angles on that.

And the relationship between the two is really about being co-located. I think originally, uh, it was the major labels back in the late 1960s who established PPCA. Um, it's grown enormously since then. I mean, back at that stage we talked about the majors and I think there were six, uh, plus festival records locally who established PPCA.

Um, but now PPCA has something like four and a half thousand, um, label licensers. Wow. So, um, it's quite, quite different to the early days, but that's where it started. And I think, um, you know, they were making the investment initially to be able to get PPCA, um, up and running. So we're co located and that's really about efficiencies.

We share a CEO, we share a COO in myself, we share IT support and some legal support, but then both organisations also have people who work only for them. For example, the ARIA chart team works only for ARIA, only has access to ARIA records and ARIA information and that section of, for example, the computer, databases, et cetera. And PPCA has people who only work for PPCA. For example, the PPCA distribution team, um, who are involved in, um, allocating and distributing all the money at the end of each year. So it's really about efficiencies and trying to save money because our, our member organization, you know, we, we get all of our money from members.

Um, and we want to do as much as we can with the money we're able to get. And the same for PPCA. Every dollar PPCA saves is another dollar that we can distribute back to the artists and labels. And so trying to be as efficient as you can and spend as little on admin is really a big priority. And those shared resources help do that.

CW: Is it around the same ratio as APRA in terms of operating costs being at around that 13 15 percent ratio?

LS: Look, it is, it has fluctuated over the years, uh, as PPCA, uh, you know, PPCA is tiny compared to APRA. Yeah. And there are a number of reasons for that, which I'm happy to take it to, but, um, you know, as you have more income, it is easier to manage your, um, you know, there's a certain amount of money you have to spend just to turn the lights on.

That's right. Yeah. So, so as you have more revenue, you can, you know, work to improve your ratios. As I've sat quite close to APRAs for the last few years, which I'm, you know, I'm pretty proud of, to be honest, PPCA has, I think, around, you know, perhaps 35 staff, uh, full time equivalents, something like that. I think APRA probably has around 300.

So there's, there's quite a, a big disparity and there's a lot of similar work to be done.

CW: So I think there's a lot of confusion perhaps with songwriters and musician members who are APRA members, but they're not PPCA members for independent artists that are listening. And there are a lot of other resources, and I'm going to put some other chats with Lynne in the show notes. But can you explain why an independent artist who does make their own recordings should become a PPCA member?

LS: PPCA does what we call blanket licensing. So we're selling licenses to things like radio networks, television networks, um, online services. Unless you are in a position to do your own licensing to do that, and even in terms of public performance, if you don't want to personally go out and license individual cafes, restaurants, hairdressers, dentists, doctors, museums, you name it, wherever you're hearing music, you know, that is often not possible. The best use of time of a creative person or even a record label. It is much easier for the people who need to buy the blanket licenses to use the music. It is much, much easier for them to have access to a single point to get what they need. Um, and it is much more efficient for artists and labels to have someone else doing that work for them.

So, as a, as an independent artist or an independent record label. There is no charge to join PPCA or to become a licensor and in effect what those rights owners do is give us a non exclusive sub license of their rights for particular purposes, just so that we can sell those blanket licenses. Um, it doesn't mean that they can't continue to sell licenses themselves if they have particular relationships or places that they want to license directly.

They're completely able to do that if that's, you know, if that's their choice. But, you know, I don't think anyone could reasonably expect that they're going to be able to, um, do that work themselves. And, you know, I, I would question why they would think it's a good idea to even try. So, I say no cost, get amongst it and, and be part of, um, getting a share of the pie that we're able to make.

CW: Absolutely. If you own your own recordings and you're not a member of PPCA and your recordings are being used in radio or any other public use and you're not a member, you're missing out on income that you should be receiving. So, um, please. Go to the PPCA website and check that out. So as Chief Operating Officer of both PPCA and ARIA, how is your role and your time divided looking after the association as well as PPCA?

LS: Your time tends to be very elastic, I'd say that's how it works, but really what we try and do is as part of the budget process each year for the separate organisations, we are trying to look at the projects that we've got on, what we expect to be happening. And to do a bit of an estimation of what our time allocation will be.

So for example, I think, um, I think in the current year, I, I allocate 40 percent of my time to REL and 60 percent of my time to PPCA. And that's how I'm charged to those two organisations. And really it's about thinking about what projects are coming up for each organisation in each year as you go into it.

To try and, um, you know, we review that every year to sort of reassess and make sure we haven't got out of kilter. And it's as close to actual as it can be, uh, without doing the lawyer thing of charging six million credits.

CW: It's a lot, Lynne. And somehow you find time to be on the Copyright Council as a director and a board director on Support Act.

Yeah, well, there's actually, I work with some really terrific people. There is a great team here and a lot of people who I've worked with for a long time. And there are definitely some efficiencies in everybody. perhaps knowing what you're going to do even before you do it. So it is, um, it's not the sort of thing you could do without a terrific team around you, but we're very, very lucky.

Lots of people who, um, really value music and really value what we're trying to do. So, yes. Makes a big difference.

CW: Yeah, but that's also to your credit, as well as being able to train and then retain staff and create a work culture that people wanna keep coming back to. That's not easy to do. How do you build that rapport with the team so they want to stay on?

LS: I really think it's that basic thing about the sort of behaviour you expect and you'll accept, you know, I know I want to work somewhere where, um, people are comfortable. Uh, they feel safe. Um, and they don't have the sort of concerns that, you know, we often hear about in other organisations. I mean, I, I don't want to go into the whole music review thing, but, you know, hearing some of those stories, it made me feel like we were a bit of an island.

Mm. I suspect APRA's a bit the same. You know, we're sort of of the music industry and in the centre of the music industry, but in some ways a little bit different. And I think people have appreciated the sort of atmosphere we have. I mean, I've worked with, um, in my time here, four really terrific CEOs. I started with Emmanuel Candy, uh, and then I worked with Stephen Peach, Jane Rosen, and Annabelle Heard. And each of those individuals are people that I've been, you know, really happy and comfortable to work with and know that their idea of what's acceptable in an office setting is aligned with mine. And I think, um, you know, people are then comfortable about where they work. And I think also lots of people that I work with.

I have a great interest in music. Some of them are musicians themselves, but others just love music. And regardless of their background, you know, whether they're really IT trained or legally trained or, you know, finance people, it's always wonderful to be able to work somewhere where you have a real interest in the product that you're dealing with.

Hmm. So that's, so that's another, you know, another reason I think people hang around their passion about music.

CW: Do you play, Lynne? Your background is in finance as well, right? Do you play an instrument?

LS: Look, I did, I did as a child. I played the piano for a number of years. Um, during lockdown I went a bit crazy and, um, had some violins, which was completely out of left field.

I'm going back to try that again next month and have another crack. It was, um, I can honestly say I was terrible. Small children, small children, you know, um, asked me to stop. But, you know, I'm going to push on. I figure there's that, isn't it the 10, 000 hour rule? Um, they say if you do anything for 10, 000 hours you should I don't need to, I don't need to be an expert, but I think if I could stop actually hurting people I'd feel better.

CW: Violin is really hard, if they just put some frets on it. I think it would be a lot easier, but it wouldn't sound the same. Um, my mum started ukulele lessons during the lockdowns and she's still going with it. And, but, um, my three year old told her to stop. ‘No grandma’.

LS: I had sort of a similar experience. A friend's six year old was around and she's been learning at school. And she said, Oh, get yours out. Let's, let's have a go together. And I was like, Oh, okay. And she lasted about two minutes. And she just put her hands out and said, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.

CW: Okay, so not a, not a musician, but you've always had a love for music.

LS: Yeah, I think so. I started my career in the music industry at Festival Records in the very late 80s.

And, um, that was really interesting to me, you know, coming from, I think before that I was working at Coca Cola. Wow. Yeah, I know. It was, um, it was great to get out of. me. It's great for some people, but Coca Cola was huge. And I remember my exit interview saying to someone, I never know if we've had a good or bad month.

You know, that doesn't work for me, you know, not to feel closer to the business. And I always remember them laughing and saying, we want Coca Cola. There are no bad months. They're all good months. Um, but anyway, so, so I ended up at the festival records, which was really, really fascinating. And I had a great six and a half. And then I came to ARIA and PPCA and I was absolutely fascinated by what I didn't know about it. You know, you think you've heard, you know, you've heard about ARIA when I worked in a label. Um, and you've sort of heard about PPCA and you sort of think you know about them. Um, but it was a great big learning curve for me when I arrived here.

CW: To go back to the festival records. Yes. Um, so. Regular listeners of this podcast will know that I'm a huge Kylie fan.

LS: Oh, yes.

CW: And so you were working at Festival during the time when the Rhythm of Love album came out, which is an iconic Kylie album. Do you remember this time? Did you ever meet Kylie?

LS: Look, I didn't meet Kylie, but I remember meeting Danni.

I remember Danni being in the building. Uh, and I remember going into the, to the bathrooms and washing my hands and looking across. And I thought, oh. It's Danni. And I thought, wow, she really is short. She was very, she was very nice. But I remember thinking, wow, she really is tiny.

CW: (laughs) You're quite petite!

LS: No, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm short. That's why it's so funny to me that that's the first thing you thought of. That's the first thing I thought, wow, we're sort of looking at each other in the face.

CW: Because you and I are about the same, we're about the same height. So yeah, I think it is a shock when you meet someone who is actually shorter than you.

That's what it is. That's why you were like, what?

LS: Well, I wouldn't say she was shorter than me. But, you know, we were, I felt that we were, you know, in the same group. Yeah, but it was, a really interesting time looking back at Festival Records.

CW: And you think of how much the industry has changed. I mean, when I started working there. You know, festival had about 300 staff. It had a cassette manufacturing plant in the building. There was a vinyl pressing plant. There was a cassette manufacturing plant. We had some terrific studios, you know, we had carpenters and electricians and, you know, an art department, you know, it's, it's just fascinating how the world has changed.

CW: Yeah. I mean, you've been part of such huge changes. I mean, around that time. CD players were first starting to come out, but vinyl records were still really strong. And then you've been part of the recorded music world, seeing that peak of CD sales. Napster and the piracy now are in the streaming realm. I mean, you've been managing teams to go through all of these different phases in the industry. I mean, how do you go about leading teams with this kind of change?

LS:  Well, I think one of the things you've noted even in your question is that it's constant. Change is constant. The nature of the change can be different. But things are always evolving. You know, things are always changing. And I think, you know, the best thing you can do is be as transparent and honest as you can be. Uh, and that you can provide as much information as you can. And that you can be sort of open to information that comes from your team. Um, but I think if you... I think anyone who expects things to stay the same is doomed to disappointment. Um, because definitely, you know, definitely as I've watched these waves come through again and again, and it's always, there's always something we're worrying about and something that's hooking up.

And one follows the other. You know, even in terms of the ARIA Awards, you know, I've been through a number of phases of the ARIA Awards of different size and scale. Uh, and it's It's fascinating how you turn around every so often and you're, um, you know, redirecting again. You know, starting again to just sort of reframe.[

CW: So speaking of ARIA and speaking of transparency, recently the Music Network hosted a panel conversation. Online, which featured yourself and Annabelle Herd facilitated by Poppy Reid with other industry experts discussing the ARIA charts and changes to the ARIA awards. And I'm going to put that chat in the show notes also, because I think it was such a great conversation and everyone should really have a listen. Um, but I'd love to chat to you about some of the points raised in that. It really got my curiosity going to go back and have a look at the 2022 end of year charts. And I noticed in the top 50 album charts of last year, there was only four Australian records. Kid LAROI, Best of INXS, Daniel Johns and Spacey Jane. And I think Spacey Jane has a female bass player, but otherwise. All of those records were all male composed, male produced titles. Does looking at these end of year results surprise you? Um, no. And I think there's, there's sort of two things there. There's the Australian component and there's the gender component.

And we've always noticed, you know, people often don't remember, but I can think of our award years where women have done incredibly well. It often is so release based, you know, just what has happened in a particular And it can definitely, definitely go in waves. Um, you know, the year Delta won everything, the year Gabriella Cilmi won everything.

You know, um, Kasey Chambers has had some terrific years. It, it just, it really is a bit of a cycle and it's definitely release driven. That's not to say there shouldn't be more women generally in the industry and coming through. But when we look at things like the ARIA Awards and the ARIA Charts, they're at the end.

So they're at the end of the sausage machine. I think there's a whole lot of stuff to consider along the way about what gets you there. Definitely, I think there's concern right across the industry at the moment. You know, we discuss it with our individual artist members, our small label members right through to the majors. Trying to get cut through for local artists is incredibly difficult. It's a global industry now. It has the advantages and the disadvantages of having to compete globally. And in a market like Australia where English is the, you know, first language. is the language. You know, we're competing with all of the product that comes out of the UK, out of the US, out of Canada.

You know, places like France, some of the Asian countries, Germany, lots of them end up with quite a lot of local language material in the charts of the local artists. But of course that's not how Australia works. So it is really, it is really challenging, I think, for local artists to cut through and be patient.

Global platforms, I suppose. So that's something that we talk about a lot, and what can we do to help promote local artists and provide platforms for them. Uh, we try and do that through the charts. We try and do it through the ways that we promote the charts. I think, um, you may have noticed that now at 4 o'clock on a Friday, or as close to 4 as we can, we try and pre release all the Australian artists results.

So the local Australian artists charts. Um, and we go out with those first to try and give people a feel for, and some space, some space for people to see what local artists are achieving, uh, in terms of their releases before we go out with the main charts an hour or so later. It's a big conversation about what we can all do as an industry, uh, to try and create more space and more cut through for local artists.

CW:  It's a real challenge. Yeah, it's the multi prong attack, really, we need a full industry and public want to make change in that area and it goes across education, media, artists themselves, who they choose to support, live shows, promoters. What are your thoughts on radio quotas and streaming quotas for Australian music? Because that is a conversation that continues. That also seems to go in cycles, where that seems to be the main thing that people point the finger at. There's been a lot of heat on festivals in the last few years, but we keep coming back to radio because we know that radio rotation builds fans and familiarity. Do you think that is an answer for getting more Australian music out there?

LS: I don't think there's any one answer, but I definitely think it can be a component, and I think that, um, Um, there is enough Australian music of terrific quality to be able to serve radio, even radio of different genres. Um, you know, whether it be classical, um, classical jazz, you know, you name the genre, I think there's some terrific Australian music out there.

Look, my personal view is that, you know, being given the radio air waves comes with a bit of responsibility, and I think, you know, there should be an onus to allow Australians through that medium to hear Australian music. So I do think it's important. I'm less convinced about the streaming services. I don't quite, you know, I haven't quite got in my head how that would work.

Uh, you know, they're, they're on to our platforms. I don't know how you would necessarily do that. But I know there's a lot of discussion going on at the moment. And it's part of, you know, when we talk about a multi pronged attack. And trying to work out what all the levers are that can be tweaked. And, uh, and used to try and, uh, give Australian viewers So it's a bit more of a platform and an opportunity to cut through and find their audiences.

CW: So speaking about the ARIA charts, can you chat us through the process of getting a release on the charts? If you're an independent artist or a label, how do you go about trying to get a spot in that chart? Look, the first thing I would say to everyone is to be aware that the ARIA charts are what we call survey driven.

So, we need labels or individual artists. to let us know that their release is out there, and to let us know what charts they are putting it forward for. So on the ARIA website, there is a charts FAQ that says, the heading is, I'm an independent artist, what must I do for my released chart? And one of the things, there is a link to fill in a form and tell ARIA about your release.

We need to know the obvious things, you know the name of the artist, the title of the release. Uh, if it has, um, a catalogue number or a barcode. We need all of that information so that in our database we can have that be ready to match with the data feeds that we get from music platforms, record stores, retailers.

Uh, if we don't know about it, it will never chart. So that is a first and very simple step. And I'd just like to reinforce with everyone that that is not for RE members, that is for everyone. So, ARIA membership is definitely not, uh, a criteria for appearing on the ARIA charts. So, anyone who's releasing material, you know, might like to consider doing that.

It'd sort of be crazy not to. So, you know, that's the first step. And, as part of that process, there's a little drop down menu to pick the charts. You know, for example, you might be releasing something in the dance genre. So, you would want it surveyed for the main charts and for the dance charts. And that is an important part of giving your release the best chance of appearing in the charts.

The other thing I would say to people is that ARIA provides data to AIR, uh, to assist AIR in producing the independent record label charts. So going through that step of making sure ARIA knows about your release, even if you don't think it's going to make the top 50 of the ARIA chart, To put yourself in a good position to be on the air charts, you know, that is still the first step.

That would be point one. Uh, the other thing I'd suggest to people is, it is a long document, and I accept that. But on the ARIA website, there is a document called the ARIA Chart Code of Practice. And it's got all the rules about if something is an album or not. You know, which chart does it go on, the singles chart or the albums chart.

What is eligibility in regard to the Australian charts? You know, do you qualify as being an Australian artist or not? But also about what you can do, um, about some of your promotional offers. You know, for example, and this is one that was under discussion recently, you might be having a show, and you're selling tickets, and you're saying to people, the ticket price is X, but if you pay X plus Y, [you also get A digital download, or, or a vinyl or whatever else.

Um, and that's perfectly fine for the RE charts. The only stipulation we have is that the one with the product must cost more. So we don't say how much more, we don't set prices, but there must be a price differential, uh, so that there is some value attributed to the music product. And you must have a ticket option that doesn't have the music product.

So you can't force people to take the download in order to get a ticket. So that's pretty simple. But if you art across that and you make all of the tickets come with the music product, we won't be able to count them. Because we would say they are ineligible for chart purposes because the consumer didn't in fact really have a choice.

If they wanted to go to the show, they had to buy the download. So it helps your sales, and that might be a good thing, and that might be a decision you make. Um, but it would be very disappointing for someone then to think they're all going to count and help them with their chart result, and find that they don't.

So, that's just an example of considering the chart rules, uh, before you plan all of your marketing or pre release campaigns. And if someone develops a brilliant marketing idea, and they're not sure if it matches up, They can absolutely ring or email and talk to someone in our chart team. You don't have to give us the dates.

You don't have to reveal anything confidential about the particular release. But if you want to talk through the scenario and ask if it would be eligible, the chart team are definitely able to do that. And we would much prefer people do that than get it wrong and be disappointed on the other side.

Nothing is more disappointing to the chart team than to have to explain to someone. That they've had some activity that we can't count for them. So I would say have a look at the chart rules and be prepared to contact us and ask some questions if you've got any queries at all. And do it before you finalize your marketing campaign.

CW: So, register your titles to be surveyed with ARIA, then the digital retailers And the physical stores give sales reports to ARIA. What I noticed though, when I had a look at the ARIA site, there is a list of all the stores that report to ARIA. And when I look at the Victorian stores, there's around 12 or so retailers that are reporting to ARIA.

Yet there's around 63 vinyl stores in Melbourne that are on the Diggin Melbourne website. recommended vinyl stores. So there's such a small proportion of Stores that are actually reporting to ARIA, which means that if you sell a lot of stock through a particular store, such as Northside Records in Melbourne that sell a lot of soul, those albums are not going to be counted towards the soul chart because that store isn't. So I'm aware that Ian Wallace at ARIA is doing some outreach work to stores, but some stores don't want to report or they don't comply with reporting systems. Is, what can we do about this? Is there anything artists can do to encourage stores to participate? Because if you're a specialty genre artist selling in a specialty genre store, you could be moving loads of stock and it's not going to help you in the ARIA charts.

LS: That's right. And we would be really grateful. if artists and others would let stores know that it's important to them. Um, we're certainly, I mean you talk about Ian doing outreach. Ian, our chart manager, is one of those people who's been with us a long time and knows the charts inside out. Ian is constantly doing outreach on this stuff. He is, he is always, um, you know, Ian would work all night Fridays if he could get every store to contribute because he'd be happy to, happy to count the data. But, we need people to, number one, be willing to do it. And we do require that people have some sort of electronic point of sale system. In the late 90s, ARIA moved from taking, sort of, uh, written or faxed reports that were filled in by hand, to collecting data that came out of people's sales systems.

And that was about two things. It was about making people feel much more comfortable about the data and how the charts were put together. And less reliant on individuals filling in forms. So it was about sort of accuracy and dependability. Uh, but it also meant that suddenly we could move from having something like 100 stores to having any store that wanted to contribute around the country.

So numbers went up exponentially, uh, when we moved from manual to digital submissions. Uh, so we don't take, um, handwritten or that sort of information anymore. We need it to come out of a point of sale system, and part of that is the assurance that it is something that has, um, you know, authenticated. You know, something where they've had to give a GST receipt, for example.

So, that's what we're after from stores. And then it's about working with people to find out what sort of point of sale systems they use. Years ago, there was a, um, you know, I think most stores used a system called MMS, which we had a relationship with. And they made sure that they built into the system the RE reporting functionality.

So people could just press a button and send the information. People use lots of different systems now. And what Ian is trying to do is work with people to make sure that they can extract the data from their system to send it to us. But it does require some will and interest from the outside. So any independent labels, independent artists, please let the stores know that it matters to you.Uh, because we would very much like to help.

CW: Yeah, I guess it's a, it's a tricky one, isn't it? I mean, there's a lot in that makes me quite curious. Like, how are you running a store without any sort of point of sale electronic system? Um, but I guess what is in the interest of the stores to want to report? You know, it's just additional admin on their end and they're not worried about it. So I guess it's also a cultural appearance maybe of the Arias that, well, I just sell this jazz stuff. It's not relevant or whatever reason it is. But it really is relevant and it can be relevant. And I think it makes, um, I think it makes those stores more attractive to artists and labels if they, if they know that the data will make it through to Aria.

LS: So in terms of when people are planning their promotional activities. If an artist was going to do an in-store appearance, for example, Um, you know, it would be a very interesting choice to go somewhere that isn't an ARIA contributor. You know, we find that most people who are planning successful campaigns take that sort of thing into consideration when they're working out how they're going to spend their time.

You want to have the biggest impact you possibly can. So we're trying to look at, uh, systems like, you know, Shopify at the moment and work out, you know, what we can do with them. If there are stores that are using Shopify, um, as a point of sale system, what sort of integration we could get to make it simple for people to be able to extract the dumber and get it to us.

Because really what you want to do is automate it. So there may be a little bit of pain in the beginning in getting organized, but after that it's just, uh, a routine press button. Because really what we don't want is manual intervention in extracting the data. We want it to be as clean as possible.

CW: Even like the square payment system has become so commonly used in retail and cafes And, you know, I have a square payment system. They don't hardly cost anything, you know what I mean?

LS: So... Yes, and in fact they're the two I think that E is currently trying to talk to. Square and Shopify. As, uh, as we can see the growth in those areas. And when Ian talks to stores about what they might have, a number of them have reported those two services.

So that's what he's currently looking at. Hmm.

CW: So in terms of the eligibility criteria to make the charts, I think a lot of people don't understand how the charts are measured. So to clarify, streams, downloads, and physical sales all count towards the result of getting a chart entry. But in terms of the streams, is this right, 170 premium streams or 420 free streams equals one sale?

LS: Digital sale. Yes. One digital sale. So is that, does that mean a full album being listened to or just one song? That gets even more complicated. If we think about a single for a moment, if we just think about before we get to albums, a vinyl or a CD or a digital download all count as one unit. So there could be quite a different, um, pricing on those three items, but they each count as one.

And as you said, then you need 170 premium strings. to equal one digital download or one vinyl, and 420, uh, ad supported or free streams. But once you've done that calculation using streams to convert them to albums, we then basically divide by 10. So, you're counting track streams, and then you would say 10 track streams converts to an album.

CW: It's very complicated, isn't it?

LS: Look, it is very complicated. I've got, I've got my pen out here, which isn't great for you listeners.

CW: I love it.

LS: it really is, um, it has really been a journey to try and work out as things kept evolving, um, how you do the conversions to bring these, uh, these different things together.

So if you think about, if you bought an album, Usually you're buying something at a particular cost that would have, I don't know, 10, 11, whatever number of, um, tracks on it. So when we're counting streams, we're trying to count something, um, and make it equivalent. So we're doing, we're doing two different things.

First of all, we're turning the streams on a value proposition into something equivalent, which is where the 170 or the 420 comes into. And the way those numbers have been determined, and are reviewed periodically, is by looking at, for the major labels for example, how many digital downloads did they sell, and how much money did they get for those.

So you end up with an average price for a digital download. Then we look at the same thing for premium streams. How many streams, how much value did they realise on the back of that. And it's about working out how many of those it took to get the same value as the digital download we talked about. So, at the moment, 170 premium streams delivers to a label about the same value as a digital download.

And that's where those conversion factors come from. So at the moment, we've converted a stream to a download. But now we've got the album factor. So one stream is not an album. So we're dividing those in. The next step is to divide that result by 10 when you're converting them to albums. That makes sense.

It's better with a whiteboard, but trust me. It's better with a whiteboard. And Chelsea, I should just go back. I don't want to mislead you. I said divide by 10. It's slightly more complicated than that. Um, you know, you take the top ten tracks. Yep. Off an album. So this week, in the order that they were, um, ranked in terms of the number of streams they've got, we push aside the first two, because often that's like a single off an album that's driving a lot of activity.

And then you average the streaming of the next eight, and you only count for the top two albums the average of the next eight. So basically we're counting, um, we're counting 10 tracks, but we're trying to neutralize the effect at the top of the tracks that are most likely to be the single, the singles of the album.

CW: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

LS: So, sorry for the extra clarification.

CW: No, thank you for clarifying that. Annabelle Heard commented that if the Spotify data conversions changed, it wouldn't have much effect for Australian artists. It would only really support the acts that are already at the top. Can you expand on that? What did she mean?

LS: Well, I think what Annabelle meant was, even if you took the raw streaming numbers, before we've done any conversions, the conversions don't change the relationship between the top, the middle and the bottom. You know, if you divide everything by 170, you know, Um, it doesn't really change anything, it just makes the numbers more manageable.

Uh, so I think what Annabelle meant was, uh, the effect that would have on Australian artists, it would also have on international artists and vice versa. Uh, because you are treating them all the same way. So if you change those, if you change those ratios, um, the relationship between what's at the top, what's at the middle and what's at the bottom doesn't change.

Because you're not actually changing, uh, the relative volume that each one has been streamed.

CW: I think with Taylor Swift's last record, she was having album tracks, not singles chart. Yes. Because of the amount of fans that instantly went to stream the full record. So, what's your take on that? What's your thought?

Because we're having songs that the artist didn't intend to be singles. still charting, it could possibly mean that for artists like a Taylor Swift or an Ed Sheeran or someone like that, who does have so many fans that enjoy their music on streaming platforms, that they could take all 10 spots in a chart because every single song off their album is now in the chart.

LS: It's possible. It's possible. And look, the ARIA board has discussed that a number of times. You know, there are genuinely different views and it's a complex question because Because we count all of the tracks as part of the charting process, and because they do achieve those volumes, they can almost eclipse the chart.

The same thing can happen, for example, if we lose an artist. I think, you know, when Michael Jackson died, you know, suddenly the chart was taken over. There are a number of things that can, there are a number of things that can happen that suddenly make something incredibly topical and everyone is streaming it.

In some territories, I think for example in New Zealand, they had a cap and said that, um, nobody can have more than four singles in the singles chart. And ARIA has certainly considered that sort of thing and whether it would be appropriate to set a limit. And even though it's always a very long discussion, um, ARIA has always landed on the point, well, if that's what's happening and that's a moment, the chart should reflect consumption and what's happening.

That's what they should be displaying. Um, rather than us trying to create some rules around that to make it look different. I think everybody appreciates both sides of the argument and why you might want to have a limit. Uh, but at this stage, those conversations have always landed on the spot where it is a moment and that's what's happening and that's what the chart should be.

CW: Yeah, because otherwise you're just manipulating what's actually happening, right?

LS: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's some, you know, there are some definitely some downsides, some downsides to doing that. And, you know, in our experience, we're not talking about being a moment, you know, there is a week or release week.

And it's a bit of a, you know, a bit of a phenomenon when, you know, a Taylor album drops and suddenly, you know, it does eclipse the charts. But it doesn't generally last. Um, you know, certainly she'll have a lot of success and she'll stay on the charts for a while, but she won't take over the chart in that way for a long period.

It's always been, as I said, a thing where, and everyone knows, Ah, the album's out. This is what's happened. And that's the talking point. Uh, and then the chart sort of moves on and writes itself again, uh, with That she believes it would be impossible to have a number one album in Australia without a physical product. Did you agree with that? Look, I, I don't know. I don't know that it's impossible. Certainly I know that Australian artists and, uh, and their, their labels definitely plan their promo very carefully and plan their release strategy.

And one of the advantages Australian artists generally have is that they're here in They can go and do the installs, they can have different promotions that use physical product, and they can have pre release strategies. You know, pre release strategies can also be had by international artists, but the Australian artists are generally on the ground and able to do that.

So it is definitely, it is definitely an advantage, and certainly having a, um, a pre release strategy where, um, all of those are delivered and fulfilled in the release week is critical. You know, there is, um, you know, I'm aware of people who've, who've organised release dates, they've ordered in some special two vinyl, they've had all of the orders in place, uh, but then the vinyl doesn't arrive on time, and then your sales are split over two or three weeks, or whenever the fulfilment can happen, and that can be really disappointing for artists when that happens, particularly after they've done a lot of, uh, preparation.

So, I don't know that I would say you could, you could never have an album number one. But it's certainly, um, it's certainly a tool that we know that labels and artists are using to try and increase their chances, absolutely.

CW: It just seemed like such a striking comment when we're in such a digital era.Yes. You know, and so many people are stopping. pressing physical product at all. I know with a recent release that I've been working on, we really labored over, should we bother doing CDs? You know, does anybody want them? Um, it's, you know, environmentally terrible and does anybody have CD players anymore? But when we put 50 50 LP and CD.

LS: And what about, did you, did you consider a digital download as a pre order? Because that's more environmentally friendly. Yes. It's easy to manage, fulfilment, all of that stuff is easier, and that will count. I mean, that's a unit in the same way a vinyl sale is a unit.

CW: Yes, and we have, you know, digital...Pre orders, but I was really interested with the CDs. I wasn't going to press them, but I was convinced, just put them up as a pre order because the turnaround on pressing is so quick, you can get them back in three days, so you might as well. And it's been 50/50. So I was really surprised.

LS: And I suppose the difference is true that you know with those pre orders, I mean, you can't pre order streaming.

You can even hope that the buzz is out there and people are going to want to hear it and everyone will keep listening. But you can't pre arrange the streaming in the same way that you can have, um, a pre release strategy about physical or a digital product, where you fulfill it at the date where you want to send it.

That can help you maximize your chart impact in a particular seven days. You know, that is something that you can, um, control might be too strong a word, but you know what I mean. You can, you can schedule that, uh, and get it to happen when you need it to happen.

CW: to be nominated for an ARIA award in some categories, your release needs to have charted, but in some other categories, you just need to have been surveyed. Can you clarify what that means?

LS: Okay. So we talked, um, early on, we, we talked about what you need to do to get on the charts. And we talked about the first thing, letting us know about your release.

and indicating what charts you want it to be surveyed on. Now for some of those genre charts, ARIA uses some external panels, um, to look at whether a release has been put forward for the appropriate chart. I'm trying to think of what a good example would be. You know, unlikely that Genesis Owusu's next album is going to be country.

I'm just guessing. Yeah, I'm just guessing. But of course, you know, a label could decide that they want to put Genesis album in the country category. So we have an external panel who will look at repertoire and come back and say, no, I don't think so. It doesn't fit into that category. So, part of what the ARIA, um, awards criteria does, rather than at the end of the year, in a very short space of time, have to have people vetting stuff to see if it's in the right category.

Going through like, means that you've sort of already done that, um, progressively throughout the year. So, to have charted on one of the genre charts, it must have been surveyed. So, we know that someone's thought about it. Um, but for some other categories where, you know, there isn't as much product, or they particularly struggle to get chart results, uh, even just having the fact that it has been surveyed, has meant that the product has been considered in terms of, um, its relevance to that genre.

So the survey process is a means of us trying to front load the work throughout the year. Um, which isn't just all ARIA staff, we use external panels to help us, uh, review those survey requests every week. Uh, because the number of entries that we get each year, uh, we wouldn't have the resources in the time frame to go through and vet and have discussions with people about if it's in the right category.

Um, and still meet the awards timetable. So that is why some things have an actual chart result required, and other things only that it has been surveyed. It's basically to make sure that things are going into the appropriate category box at the start.

CW: You're also on the Board of Support Act, which was such a lifeline, especially during the last few years during the pandemic. Do you think the conversations that we've been having over the last few years around mental health, superannuation for artists, basic wages, do you think those conversations Are resulting in meaningful change or do you think now that we're just back into business as usual some of those things are, you know, set to the side again?

LS: Look, I don't know set to the side. I know that Support Act, you know, Support Act itself as an organisation continues to try and work on two fronts. Historically and what it was established for originally was crisis relief. Uh, but Support Act's board had always had aspirations to do more. And to try and prevent people from getting to the crisis point in the first place.

So Support Act's got, and you'd be aware and probably will listen as well, of the number of programs Support Act's got happening, uh, to try and help people avoid getting into those situations and generally just improve, I suppose, culture and, you know, people's knowledge about how they can look after themselves, really. Uh, so Support Act's been doing that for a long time. But what has been really fantastic, I suppose,

Um, and I think following off from the Music Industry Review, the establishment of Music Australia, which we're all very much looking forward to. There was a great commitment as part of the New South Wales State Election, um, and now setting up Sound New South Wales within the New South Wales Government.

So I think there is a real focus on the industry now, a focus on contemporary music like I've never seen before. And I'm really hopeful that that some of that, uh, interest and focus will, will lead to continuing these broader considerations of how the industry works and how it could work better. So I'm, I'm hoping that all of those conversations have not been pushed to one side, but they might be, you know, now coming at it from a few different angles, uh, and not just the Consideration Support Act has and what it does, but some more, I suppose, structured government support and consideration of what might help the industry.

And help the industry commercially, I hope. You know, how we can, um, help people, magnify, amplify local artists to help them find global platforms. I mean, I think that would be a tremendous outcome from the federal government initiative. And certainly that's what I'm hoping to see.

CW: I've got one more question for you, Lynne. And that is, what do you still want to achieve in your career?

LS: Oh, that's a, that's a good question. Um, We've got so much going on all the time, um, like PPCA for example, a big thing for me, uh, for all the years I've been here is the radio caps. I don't know if you're familiar with the radio caps, but in the Copyright Act there are some, uh, provisions that mean that radio, uh, doesn't have to pay as much as it would, it doesn't have to pay a market rate.

So, for example, there is a provision in the Act that says that the ABC, for all of its, uh, use of sound recordings across all of its radio networks, need only pay a half a cent per head of population. Well, last year, that got PPCA, I think, licence fees of 130, 000. Now, to me, that is just incredible. In 1969, when that provision was put in, it was half a cent. that has never had any CPI applied. That's never changed. It has only changed based on population numbers. So when the ABC launched a new network, for example the Triple J network, uh, it made no change to how much money, um, we're able to get for sound recordings. So in effect, that's been the recording industry and recording artists subsidising the radio interest now since, um, the radio industry since 1969.

The caps for non government radio, so for commercial radio for example, the cap is 1 percent of revenue. So, regardless of what the market rate might be, or what you might try and negotiate, even if you go off to the Copyright Tribunal, which is the independent arbiter, when you can't agree, the Copyright Tribunal, even if it thinks it should be, I don't know, 3%, is restricted and can only order 1%. So, PPCA has been lobbying for years. We had a go at the High Court in about 2015. We tried our own castle, castle situation and made that case, but we were unsuccessful. But everyone knows, I mean the vibe is just not right here. So, we are continuing again to lobby. We've got a petition out at the moment, which I hope people will consider and sign up to.

Asking the government to consider removing these really archaic restrictions. Because it has a significant impact on the revenue that we're able to collect. It's huge. It's huge. And that's why people listen to radio. They listen for the music. Music, yeah, music is, music is critical. Studies show that. Um, you know, just by way of example, there is no such restriction on the musical work.

So APRA, for example, is able to get licence fee rates up to about, you know, 3. 7, 3. Which is significantly different to what we can get for the sound recording. And there's no, as far as we can see, there's no rational reason for that. And a number of independent studies, some of them even commissioned by the government, um, have said that it's anti competitive and should be removed.

But we've never really found a government with the will to do it. I mean, some people might say that the ABC, um, would not be doing their job if they paid more than the legislation said. Uh, you know, I know that the ABC has a lot that it needs to do with the money it gets. Um, I just don't think that if it needs to save money, it should come from the sound recording sector.

I'm sure that whatever the power bill is, it's being paid. Um, you know, whatever they need to pay staff properly, they're paying and they should. Um, but I see sound recordings and the people who invest in them and create them. You know, I think they should be treated exactly the same. So if you could just get that fixed, Chelsea, that would be great. I'd love to leave that bit. Stitched up and finished .

CW: Oh, it's, no, that's, that's the Lynne legacy and I'm here for it if there's anything I can do to help. Well, thank you for all of your work in the industry and for supporting artists and record labels and rights holders and artists through Support Act. You do an incredible job and so appreciative of your time chatting to me on the Control podcast. It's been great.

LS: Thank you so much Chelsea. And if anyone has questions, send us an email and uh, we'll do our best to answer. Even without the whiteboard.

CW: What did you say? It was an... Echno mathematician?

LS: Oh, an econometrician. An econometrician.

CW: I can't even say it. (laughs)