Jasmine Moseley

This episode was produced by Chelsea Wilson.

TRANSCRIPT:

Chelsea: Jasmine, welcome to the control podcast.

Jasmine: Thank you for having me. Great to be welcomed here.

Chelsea: So good to see you. And I was so excited when you were appointed the new Executive Director of the Australian Art Orchestra. The Art Orchestra is approaching 30 years of practice. It was founded by Paul Grabowsky. It has a huge, long legacy in commissioning and presenting contemporary art music. Simultaneously, the organization appointed you as a new executive director as well as a new artistic director, Aaron Choulai. I believe this is the first time the AAO has had a dual leadership structure. Can you chat to us about the strategy behind this and how it's working in practice?

Jasmine: Well, first, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. So yeah, I'm, I'm very lucky to be sort of in the team with Aaron. We started at the start of 2023. So we're in a really wonderful position that doesn't happen every day, which is that we're a new leadership team that started at the same time. But yeah, as you say, things have evolved over the years. I mean, when, when the Australian Art Orchestra first started, Paul Grabowsky and Anne Moyer really sort of ran it all together. And so I suppose, and I'm just thinking what everybody might have been called over the years, executive producer. There's been some time where inside arts, um, managed the, the producing side of things.

And then, um, under Peter Knight's artistic leadership, there was a couple of executive producers, so sort of moving into, I guess similar to what we've got now. But yeah, this is, they've decided to appoint us as co-CEOs, so that I think is a bit of a shift, rather than one person at the top per se. And I think it speaks to probably the age of the organisation being close to 30 years.

The support that we are very fortunate to have received from the federal, state and local governments. But there's a lot to consider in conjunction with the artistic work and all the different kind of things that we do and so combining an artistic leader with someone who's an executive director or producer and just having some really clear lines of responsibility help us to manage that as a business and to really grapple with the challenges that can come with running an arts organisation.

Chelsea: So can you talk to us through the dynamic between an executive director and an artistic director?

So you're co-CEOs but you're the executive director and Aaron is an artistic director. So does that mean there's moments where you're the budget person and he gets to make creative decisions or are you both kind of tackling both of these things simultaneously?

Jasmine: Well, it's an interesting question, because I guess you come into these roles with different skill sets. And for each set of leaders, it might be a different mix each time. So for us, yes, I am the budget spreadsheet person. I am the contract person. That's not to say, because Aaron's been an independent artist and runs his own record label, so that's not to say that he doesn't have those skills. But in our business, he doesn't need to do that necessarily. However, when we step through things, you know, it's my job to really listen to what he wants to do artistically and figure out how can we do that as a business. If I come back with different models of how we think we can support it, um, Aaron might have ideas about how best to obtain the support.

So it's not like, uh, he's completely not involved in that side of things, but it is delineated. And I would say things like, you know, running an office and managing HR and payroll, all that kind of stuff is mine. And it is pretty varied. I suppose we're figuring part of that stuff out because we're new. So, we've been learning, what's the business? What's the business for us? Where do we want to take it? How are we going to get there? And, you know, what do we need? So, there's a lot to grapple with.

Chelsea: Yeah, at the same time of working out a working dynamic between you, had you met each other before? Is this like a film thing? Did you have to do, you know, like a casting audition together, See if there's, chemistry?

Jasmine: Oh, I love the sound of that. Like a bit of a screen test right?

Chelsea: You should do that because otherwise you end up producing You know, something for someone who you're like, actually, no compatibility?

Jasmine: Well, Chelsea, it's a really interesting question because I've actually known, sort of known Aaron for quite a long time, but we haven't really known each other very well, um, until sort of recently.

So, because... And Aaron did spend a bit of his time growing up and studying in Melbourne. That's when I saw him on the scene because I also grew up in Melbourne and was studying music and really loving the jazz scene. And so I remember seeing him as a teenager and I was a teenager too and thinking, oh wow, this amazing musician.

I have always sort of followed his work, so, but, you know, he would recognise me and see me around and say hello and things like that. In more recent years, as we're all international, I was, you know, living in New York for a little while and we connected online about photography because we both love photography.

So, yeah, we have a friendship in there and then there's that crossover of sort of being in those adjacent worlds performing arts music the experience of living as an expat overseas and finding out how to make all the different things in your life work and some nice synergy there Yeah, some really nice synergy maybe but you can know somebody but it's different stepping into the into a different realm with, with that person and yeah, new context. So, you know, writing funding applications together, attending events together, pitching ideas, all those kinds of things are things we're learning to do together. Actually, it's, it's a really interesting sort of challenge to figure out how to work together to achieve. the kind of things we want to make. To figure things out but in a way where I'm maybe not supporting the artist, uh, like I have done as a company manager. I'm there hand in hand in a very different capacity.

Chelsea: The AAO does have this really long legacy in commissioning and, you know, has a strong history in Australia. Is that something that you two have talked about a lot? How you kind of become the new caretakers of this legacy, but take it in a new direction?

Jasmine: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, Aaron is obviously way more, you know, came into the job. Understanding a lot about the AAO And I knew a little bit but not very much if I'm perfectly honest, so in terms of where it's going artistically, of course, you know, that's where we take the lead but I've worked for a lot of big institutions.

So I've worked for the Public Theatre, um, in New York City. I've worked for the Australian Ballet, um, and toured around the world with them. And most recently I've worked at, um, Monash Performing Arts Centres. I've worked for different festivals including Rising, Melbourne Festival. So, I'm very interested and inclined to look at legacy. So, I love looking back. I love that. And sort of, that helps me to discover what I think I can bring. Thirties, I mean, nowadays, is 30 the new 20? Pretty much. I mean, it's kind of amazing. I think it speaks to the strength of the concept and just the artistic strength of the Australian Art Orchestra. You know, we're stepping into the third artistic leader and they're all so different and varied and have brought so, so many wonderful things to the music scene in Australia.

It speaks to the strength of the organization that we can be 30 years old, almost, but we're not so embedded that we can't do things in different ways. And somebody very wise said to me, you know, isn't it great, Jas, that you're in a speedboat as opposed to the Titanic? You know, if you need to. I was like, oh, that's great. He said, you can move things around. You can try things. Something doesn't work, you can try something else. Just give it a go. And having that concept in mind has really helped to free up my, free myself from the worry of, you know, being a custodian is a lot of responsibility. Particularly when, when everyone cares so much and we are so lucky that that's how people feel about the Australian Art Orchestra.

Chelsea: I guess just having the word art in the title and when we think about, you know, current artworks at the NGV such as banana gaffer taped on the wall, I mean, there's a lot of questions about what is art anyway and just having that title and that legacy of being experimental means you can. You know, take things in different directions and the kind of repertoire that the Art Orchestra is known for crosses experimental music, avant garde, jazz, abstract sounds. Where do you feel that art music sits in Australia at the moment?

Jasmine: Oh, it's a great question. What I understand is that you know, we're so lucky in Australia to have such a rich community of artists and musicians. And art music expresses something that isn't available in other areas. So it's the possibilities within that kind of scene are many and varied.

And so I would say that. More than ever, art music is something that is likely to be accessible and interesting if people just know that it is open to them. Um, Um, but I would say because the, because of the strength of musical and artistic practice here, the potential and sort of what's going on currently in art music is why I'm so excited about working with an ensemble like this.

You know, something that was really exciting recently was sort of looking at all the different works that were recognised as part of the Australian Art Music Awards and understanding how it might look like something quite niche, but even within that niche there's so much variety. And there's a lot of different angles you can look at that work from.

So, I suppose thinking about the state of art music, I'd say it's, it's in a really exciting place. From my perspective, now I'm not the artistic director of the AAO, but that's, you know, I, you know, studied music. I'm a culture vulture. I love everything to do with art and music and performing arts. And, um, I feel like it's got a lot to offer me and a lot.

Because it crosses over, it has the ability to be cross genre. It has the ability to touch lots of different other parts of scenes that people might not have even thought of.

Chelsea: To touch on something you said there about how art music, it's for everyone if they know it's around. I think that's one of the challenging things about art music. It's exciting because the music is challenging and it's experimental, and there's a lot of capacity to present commissioned works and brand-new works. And that's really exciting as a producer and an artist to be able to commission something and have its first premiere at a live show. But in terms of marketing, that's quite challenging.

There's limited media outlets that cover music or challenging avant garde music and when you're selling something in the mainstream that no one's heard of, you hear something, you don't know what the hell it is. Yep. That's, it's kind of a marketer's nightmare. Um, so how do you, consider developing new audiences and promoting shows.

Jasmine: That is such a great question. It's, it's definitely at the heart of what can be quite tough. Um, because you're really asking audiences to take a bit of a risk. And these days, there's a lot of things competing for our attention. Something that we are thinking a lot about in our, you know, next era at the AAO is making sure that people realise they don't need to go into a concert hall to experience art music.

So, what we are really excited about and speaking about more as we approach 2024 is taking our performances into different show environments with both paid and unpaid events. So, maybe there's not the barrier of a ticket price. You can sort of come along and have a bit of a try and see if it's for you.

You know, an emphasis coming up for us is really looking at tapping into different cross-cultural collaborations that really... demonstrate and show who we are as Australians. It's such a diverse, amazing place. Starting with our First Nations cultures and thinking about all the different immigrant communities that are here that have made Australia their home.

And then thinking around the Asia Pacific region. So, something else that I think is a strength for us going forward is that There are many communities in Australia that already have very rich musical practices and crossing over those sort of touch points between practice and between communities can be a real strength and encourage people to try something new.

Maybe a good example is we're just about to premiere here a new iteration of a project called Raw Denshi. And we have two MCs that have just travelled out from Tokyo. And, um, actually they're upstairs rehearsing at the moment. I'm not sure if you can hear anything in the background. Um, the kind of work that they're doing is experimental jazz.

There are different flavours of, of even hip hop. There's a bilingual aspect. So English, Japanese. So there's lots of ways in to the music. So I suppose it's finding those different aspects and sort of making sure that you reveal those to audiences because they don't know. And so for us, you know, the music speaks for itself as well.

So it's about sort of getting out there, giving people access to things that are recorded, you know, putting some interviews out so that you can hear Aaron and our different collaborators talk about the works. Um, in English and other languages. And just kind of, just trying to open it up so that, that, you know, we do, it doesn't need to be a closed shop. We're not that secretive. I don't know if that answered the question, that was quite long winded.

Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely it does.

Jasmine: But yeah, it is, it is a challenge. Look, something I would say is, There's so many financial pressures at the moment and there's so much in the marketplace that it is difficult to cut through. So when it comes down to it, it's the music and the people, and it's pretty grass roots, you know.

Chelsea: So to touch on that, working with different artists, different presenters, different organisations to develop those cross collaborations that you're talking about. Can you chat us through how you approach developing relationships with partners, and do you have any advice on how you approach successful collaborations?

Jasmine: I suppose the key thing that I've been thinking a lot about is that relationships take time. And relationships can be specific. And that's okay. So something I've been thinking a lot about is that the Australian Art Orchestra has sort of had many and varied long term relationships with different artists, maybe different venues.

Depending on who the artistic director is, you know, who the circle of musicians is that what they're working with, you know. And then that might open up different partnerships.

So I suppose it's looking at what we've got and finding pathways from there, I would say. You know, something that Aaron is really interested in is, that's really important to us, is finding the right context for performances. So that might mean approaching some place new. We want to do something, like a, it could be a venue.

Thinking about a festival that might not have thought about us before. So, we are doing, I feel like I'm doing a lot of knocking on the doors, but I'm finding as now that we're settling in a bit, that people are coming to us, which is so lovely. So, and just kind of seeing what's there, but not being too, being quite organic about it.

I think it's easy to feel, and particularly as a new team, I, I mean, I definitely, I'm extremely ambitious, and very, I really care about the relationships. that I hold as a leader. And I'm interested to open up opportunities. It's wonderful when you've worked with a collaborator and you think, Oh, I'd love to bring them on board.

But there does also need to be space for new people and new ideas. I think the greatest asset in forming partnerships is curiosity. I tend to be glass half full. So I think I might not be sure what's possible, but I'm willing to consider what could be. I think that's a strength for me. And it can be helpful sometimes if you're not quite sure.

And then, paired with that, I would say the other thing is being okay about saying when something isn't right. And being okay with saying, you know what, we thought that this might work, but actually maybe we need something else. Or, maybe you want to book a different ensemble, but could we keep talking about, you know, something that you like about what we do, and maybe we can do something in two years rather than this year.

Because I think that the hard thing is, there's been so much instability that you need to be able to trust people to tell you the good things and the bad things. You know, there's not heaps of resources either, so we need to sort of... Combine forces and be really clear about where we want to get to with something, but, you know, not be afraid to sort of let something go as well.

Chelsea: I'm interested in chatting to you about working with artists because the Australian Art Orchestra has some incredible artists on the books, but it's completely different from a symphony orchestra. So how does that work in terms of fees and salaries?

Jasmine: It's helpful to speak about this because, you know, there is a perception out there when you look at the organisation name, Australian Art Orchestra, what does that mean? Does it mean that you have a standing ensemble that you pay year round? How big is it? Is it a hundred people or is it three people? You know, what is it? And for us, what... Probably the way that is helpful to frame what we do and where we're at at the moment is that we have a core organisational team, including our artistic director, and we have key collaborators that we work with on a regular basis, but our staff is very compact.

So when we bring in the ensemble, it can be different every time. And it's generally speaking project by project. So you might have an artist that's involved in four projects in the year or one because it might depend on the size of the ensemble or what the music requires as to whether we need, whether we need that.

And so that's different in a sense. Something that's fascinating to me is that Where you might have a symphony orchestra that is, you know, you know exactly what you're playing with all the time. There's, there's so much possibilities with the art orchestra ensemble as it is because of its flexibility.

Um, but that comes with its own challenges, you know, the people or the instruments that you want. Some might not be available. It's like putting together a, you know, puzzle.

Chelsea: It's a supergroup.

Jasmine: I love it. That's actually such a great way to put it. It is a supergroup.

Chelsea: I mean, when you look, when you look on the website of the AAO and you see the list and bios of all of the people involved, most of them are composers in their own right with their own solo projects.

So I think that's a huge point of difference as well with the art orchestra versus, you know, a symphony orchestra. Some of them are players, you know, their second violin or whatever they are, they have a specific role, but you might not have ever heard of them outside of, you might not have heard of them at all.

There's someone in the orchestra, they're kind of in a band, where in the art orchestra, they're all soloists with their own agendas and their own creative careers. So that's a lot to manage from a personality perspective too, right?

Jasmine: Absolutely. And I think it's about putting things together for an ensemble of, you know, principal musicians.

Chelsea: Yes, that's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, principles.

Jasmine: So everybody there is the top of the pops, you know, they're the, they're They are the person that is coming in, in that capacity at that time. So it's very different to having, you know, a tiered hierarchical structure where you do have firsts and seconds or, you know, to think about a dance analogy, you know, you've got your corps de ballet and all the different levels up to principle and every different level serves a different function in the ensemble.

The next thing to think about is, okay, so how do we work from a contract and fee perspective. So this is where our industry sector bodies are invaluable. We need them and um, looking at, you know, Live Performance Australia at the awards, looking at Music Australia, Music Victoria, hearing from industry about not only what's required under the law, but. What reality is for artists and sort of what this gig might mean to them? Uh, the tapestry of their working life for the year? And sort of, what are they committing to for us if they're coming for two weeks and they're saying no to everything else that they're doing? You know, thinking about how to value that.

Starting from industry. requirements but then thinking about that as well. The flip side of it is that there is a real cap on the money that's available to run the shows. So we can do things as a smaller ensemble but we, we want to do things big.

Chelsea: Well, yeah, you can’t really have the orchestra title and then just do a bunch of duo gigs.

Jasmine: Yeah, yeah. And so, um, you know, being the person negotiating the deals with festivals, etc. It's about explaining and telling that story. So, showing how the costs accrue. Because it can seem pretty arbitrary sometimes if you say, Oh, it costs us this many. tens of thousands of dollars to do this thing.

Because that's what it, that's what it does cost. You know, you've got anything upwards of six players, you know, and technical support and venue hire and this and that and the other. So the artist fees, but, but in terms of development, that's the highest cost. And it should be, you know, they're our artists, they're the core of the work.

So we have to be in step with industry, but we also can't price it so high that we can't get the gig or

Chelsea: then the cost goes on to the audiences.

Jasmine: Yeah, totally

Chelsea: Break even on those costs, you know, people aren't gonna pay 250 apiece to see a work to hear something that they've never heard of before people are happy to pay that for Taylor Swift, but this is the challenge, right?

Jasmine: Someone's got to do it.

Chelsea: Um, can you talk to us about commissioning and how it works with commissions? Because there's so many new works that the orchestra might perform. There's sections of these that are improvised though as well, right? So. How are things such as copyright splits address and ownership of the recording and is that something that in those initial contracts that you're sending to artists that you're outlining those expectations?

Jasmine:

Thinking about a few different things. So at the beginning, if, if it's experimental, we might not know where something's going. So we might need to start at a place where we're managing. The writing of the music and who, of course, you know, who owns that and just being clear about where we think it might go and what our ambitions are.

We have had, particularly in the last few years, actually, when the, the organization revived the AAO recordings. So we have had a lot of recordings recently and it's important for us where something is, um, You know, where there are multiple creative collaborators that everybody's acknowledged correctly etc.

They might be commissioned to write the work for the Australian Art Orchestra and it might belong to us. Or we might perform something that belongs to somebody else or arrange it for us. It's definitely multi layered, the copyright challenge. There's two things that I'm thinking about. One of them is being a custodian of the organisation.

So, creating things that sort of... might belong in the, in the repertoire of the Australian Art Orchestra, but having a deep respect for and, um, understanding of, of what's required in terms of recognition of ownership of ideas and something else that I'm, I think about is, you know, we've been very privileged over time to have artistic material shared with us that that belong to deep history of Australia, you know, sharing of ancient songlines and things like that.

So, and those are things that don't belong to us and that there's been a lot of different permissions given to enable them to be shared beyond the community that they originate from. Um. Um, and First Nations communities in Australia. So yeah, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot to consider really.

Chelsea: In terms of working with artists and as a leader of an arts organizations where emotions and passions can be high, can you talk to us about how you approach providing feedback and providing constructive criticism?

Jasmine: Um, yeah. I think something that I have learned over the years working with different artists is, and I probably would apply this to anybody, is that There is a level of vulnerability and sharing when you are creating and putting that work out there. Or, if you are embodying a work for somebody else, you need to access your emotions.

You need to be available for what's there and prioritize what you need to get there. At the same time, Um, you know, we're all human beings and we all have our own lives. So I tend to come from a standpoint, because I suppose I've worked with lots of different kinds of artists and also I trained in music.

So I, and I have my own personal photography practice. So I feel like I have, you know, a glimpse into part of the world of what it is like and what I might need if I'm. Doing something. Um, but I do, I sort of let it be led by the artist. People normally tell you what they need. You know, you have to take that with a grain of salt, of course, when you're, uh, someone who has to say yes and no to things, and that can be really hard, you know.

It can be so hard, just say that you want to give an artist extra time in a studio, or you, want to be able to say absolutely we can afford this size ensemble but you have to say well look the reality here is that we maybe can't do that. What do you think will work? You know, you really have to go back and be centred around the artist as to what they think.

Over the years I've gathered a lot of experience and I do, I suppose because I've come from that creative background myself, I might have some ideas, but I can't really have an ego about it. Because it might be disappointing, you know. You sort of, you can come up with an idea and you can say, look, have you considered this?

But you really have to, like, leave your ego at the door. You just have to be okay with, this is my personal perspective, um, just kind of being willing to let, to let go of stuff too. And thinking about different artists, everyone's had such diverse journeys to get to where they need to get. So, a good example is working for a company with, Lots of different artists that are part of a huge collective like the Australian Ballet.

They will need to work in certain ways to achieve what they need to artistically. And you also have, you know, 77 or however many it might be at the time. Different personalities and individuals that have their own journeys and you really can't make any assumptions. It's easy to make assumptions when you're dealing with a big group of people.

If you are dealing with, you know, like we are, engaging heaps of independent musicians, they might be strongly independent, very used to looking after themselves. We've all been burnt before in business too. So there might be reasons why someone might be a bit gruff on the phone to you or, you know. I think it's just about communication.

It's just the key. You just have to be open and communicate and, and also just like, Something I think about too is, it is kind to explain and sort of, just to be clear about things. So if you do need to say no, you've got to cut through and I can be a bit nice, you know, it can be, it'll take me a little while to get to the point.

And some people are like, Jasmine, are you going to get to the point? But I am known for my diplomacy, which is a strength.

Chelsea: I am the opposite, as you know. People know, Chelsea doesn't beat around the bush.

Jasmine: I love that though. You know, I love that. And I'm sort of always learning actually. Always learning. Just when I think I've got things sorted, I find out I don't. You know, what is it they say? Stay humble?

Chelsea: Hashtag stay humble.

Jasmine: Hashtag stay humble. Yeah, I would probably also say timing is everything. Yes. You know, think, think about it. Are they about to head out on stage? Are they walking into the rehearsal room? Are they in a position where constructive criticism can be received?

Chelsea: Also thinking about what outcome or response am I hoping to achieve after providing this criticism? If I might think it's constructive, But is it necessary? Yeah, oh yeah. If you're never going to present that show again, is there even a point in giving the feedback? Yep. You know, whereas if it's like a musical that's gonna be on eight times a week for the next six months, like you really do need to give that feedback.

Jasmine: At the moment, I think I just take a bit of time. So sometimes if I'm just itching to give some feedback, I think, ah, good. That's a clue, Jasmine. That's a clue. Why the urgency? What's important here? And I have to think myself, why do I want to share this? Do I want to be heard? Do I think it's important for the production?

Is there something I need to communicate that will make a better audience experience? And then, who needs that feedback? Is it our technical director? Is it our venue contact? Is it the artists? Just because somebody asks you a question doesn't mean they're ready for your answer. So like, what did you think? What did you think?

Chelsea: Yes, and you know, you know this very well from working with me, I do not have a poker face. I, have this self awareness. I know that I don't have a poker face and I am trying to take that exact advice and I think, Okay, I'm thinking to myself, Chelsea, you have an opinion, but you don't need to give it.

It's not necessary. You're not even working on this particular project they're talking about. So just chill. And I do. I just sit there. But I obviously have a look on my face and then I get asked. The executive director always says, Chelsea, what do you think? And I'm like, no, don't ask me because I can't, you know, I can't just waffle on some Namby Pamby.

I'll be like, bang, you know, it's a constant thing for me. It's like, how do I bring a jazz diplomacy to this? And, uh, it's so much personality is, you know, that leading style, right? I could work more on the poker face. Maybe just more Botox is the answer. Less expression could, could be the key for me. . Well, I,

Jasmine: I'm really with you there on the expressive facials. I've got a very active face. I think I've got a resting worried face, which is not great as an executive director. Everyone says, what's wrong?

Chelsea: Oh, I hate that question. Yes, I get that too. You know, they’re reading, the disdain, and I haven't even said anything.

Jasmine: Oh, I know, but I mean, like something that, that has helped me a little bit and you know, you get your little, Oh, now I'm telling you all my secrets, but sometimes I might think about a way to sort of not to deflect the question, but just to delve a little under it.

So, you know, if someone says, what did you think I might say, well, I was thinking, how did it feel? In the room, you know, like and and and that that'll give me a little bit of feedback about where They're at yeah, and then if someone is very direct they will say Honestly, I need to understand were there any moments where you lost interest or I'm thinking about cutting this section, what do you think?

I've had other things happen where I've come up absolutely full of beans, so excited, can't wait to share how much I loved the show.

Maybe, maybe they don't ask. Maybe I offer, maybe I say, Wow, I just wanted to share with you how much I loved the show. And because I might have a relationship of support or, you know, industry, they'll say, Oh, you don't need to be nice. Or, I hated it. Or, that was such a bad, that was the worst, you know, the rehearsal was so much better.

And then you kind of have to think, how am I going to sit there with somebody? Because it can sound a bit sycophantic, um, if you come back and you go, well, whatever you thought, I just loved it. It can really be a bit, irritating. And I know that I've had that too, you know, I'll write something and someone will say, Oh, I think that sounds great.

And I'll say, oh, look, I don't know. I don't think that's my best effort. Yeah. So, so I mean, look, you can't always get it right. But um, but yeah, just just thinking about why the why and the where and you know, all that kind of stuff. I do fancy myself a bit of an arts critic though. And I love it. You know, so I do a lot of reflection and have quite a few friends and I've had to do some judging as well and that's been really an interesting process.

And I love reading arts criticism because I think being able to articulate an artistic work. for others and also express your own point of view is such a, an incredible skill. And it's something that I wish had more investment in, in this country. Yeah.

Chelsea: I just want things explained to me. Even watching a film. I mean, you know, my partner hates it, but I'm like. What, what, like, and he's, oh, just let the story unfold. But as it's going, I want to kind of talk about it or pause it and go, What did he say that? What's happening? You know, like, so it's the same when I see a show. I want to have this conversation afterwards about, well, what did it mean? And what was this and what was that? And sometimes the people you go with just go, Oh, it was nice or whatever. You know, I want that robust conversation. And when I don't get that. That's when I want to read a review the next day to go, did they make sense of this thing, you know, and I agree, I would love more space in our media for those kind of, those kind of reviews. Moving on, I really wanted to talk more about your background as an artist. So you practice photography, but you actually studied music.

Jasmine: Yeah, that's true. I did study music.

Chelsea: What's happening there?

Jasmine: Oh, well, well, the short answer is not really much. You know, I don't play very much. But, it's a very important part of who I am now is where I've come from. So, I mean, so my parents have my piano at home.

Um, so I was given an actually very good, um, Pianola by my grandparents. We, I had a different piano to play growing up, but so I trained as a pianist, but of course, you know, apartment living isn't really designed around a community pianola, you know, everyone would be able to hear it. Um, and I've also studied the oboe, which  as we know, is one of the most very beautiful, but extremely penetrating sounds.

Uh, I am actually, at the heart, a little bit shy and so I find sometimes the loudness of having to keep a practice and being imperfect and what's required to practice a bit embarrassing sometimes. So I sort of, um, stepped away a little bit from, from that, but I loved studying music. It really, it's always been a part of me.

And I loved learning. Um, you know, recorder and singing as a kid, I was in the Australian Girls Choir, so lucky to have done that. Um, you know, I played in different recorder ensembles at school. You might pick up that I maybe wasn't the coolest kid, but I did love, I did love it. I love, um, music. I loved playing the piano.

I loved visiting my piano teacher's house every week and sharing with the other students at the end of it. term. And then when I went to high school, I was so lucky because I was able to go to Blackburn High School. And which is like a selective state school, but, um, um, real music school where my parents, like we could afford for me to do two instruments.

Like that was amazing. You know, just be just because that's the opportunity that That is provided in an environment like that and it was so great. You know, though, I used to play in the big band. I used to play in the symphony orchestra, um, symphonic band as well, um, because of the two instruments I played.

I loved it. I found my community. I found people who felt like me and a way of communicating with others that was not to do with what you're writing or what you're Reading or, you know, just that intangible musical connection there. And I will always miss that. I will always, um, miss feeling I was playing it at a particular level and being immersed.

Like playing the oboe, you know, you're in the middle of the orchestra. It's incredible. Yeah. It's a lot of responsibility too, you know, tuning. Everyone's tuning to you. And then... Playing as part of the rhythm section in a big band. How cool is that? Like I was so lucky and then all of the people that I studied with up big deal now, you know, I'm about to go see Shannon Barnett at the Melbourne International Jazz Festival.

Yeah, we were in class together When I think about my class, and, and that's part of what I love about being an AAO with Aaron, you know, being the same age, you know, coming from that same, what an incredible peer group. So lucky. But it is an interesting journey having studied but not followed into the professional.

So I did actually study at university. I, I studied music. I decided to move forward with oboe. For various reasons, I ended up finishing my musical degree. I re-auditioned and I finished on piano, classical piano. That was at Monash University. Music gave me a chance to learn about myself. And something that I really discovered through that process was that I'm inclined to be with others and I, not particularly, it feels a bit ironic now because I'm at the Australian Art Orchestra, but I don't think I ever really understood or learned how to improvise.

And I think if I had that skill, I may be happily playing still, but because I'm not as much compatible as It's being able to practice for seven hours a day on my own. And that's sometimes what's required, which is just too lonely for me. But I loved playing in the collective and I loved, loved, loved that.

So I think the reason why I sort of started moving away from music is because I just didn't have that self discipline to. be on my own for such a long period of time to sort of refine. How I sort of ended up starting in my career was thinking, how do I be around the stuff that I love, music, performing arts, and be in the environment that I understand and contribute and support without having to practice?

Um, and make reads and all that kind of stuff. I sound a little bit lazy, but, uh, you know. And then, and then I went off and, you know, dealt with a lot of different, um, artists. And, you know, I did a master's degree and did lots of different study and things. So I certainly have sort of pursued trying to be excellent at all, yeah.

Chelsea: So you worked in the dance world for many years. You were a company manager for the Australian Ballet for nearly ten years. Can you tell us, um, about working with dancers and what those key learnings are for you that you think are transferable to then working with musicians. Do we have anything in common, musicians and dancers?

Jasmine: Totally. You just can't see all the muscles. When I started at the Australian Ballet, I was the assistant company manager and I was I was pretty young, so I was the same age as a lot of the dancers. And that was really interesting, you know. The cohort of stayed a sort of particular age range, but you keep getting older. Um, dance is so fun. I loved that, you know, just the...the collective pursuit. But we did also work with all of the major orchestras around Australia And I loved that now can I say one of my favorite things? This is a little bit of a tangent, but when I was working at the Australian Ballet at the headquarters in South Bank, one of the best parts of my day, and if I ever felt like I needed inspiration, I could hear.

And the company has a set of full-time company pianists who are incredible players and improvisers and understand how to play for class every day. And just hearing that music and also seeing musicians work with dancers. It's helped translate my experience and make, uh, to, to find an understanding.

Because dancers, uh, it's very rare that you would be performing without music. So mostly there's, you're dealing with people who are very, not every dancer is musical, but who have a real inherent sense, an intangible grasp on, means and who love music. So, I mean the differences I think are obvious in some ways, but, but there are a lot of similarities, even just to do with like looking after your body.

I think people assume that dancers don't have fun or eat lots of food or, or you know, all those kind of things. But, you know, they, they're at the level of, Like, like a professional athlete, you know, the kind of activity they do every day. And, and also it's the same if you're sitting there playing for eight hours in a rehearsal, you're doing a lot physically and you have to kind of deal with, you know, look after your body.

And not everybody does look after themselves, and that, that's a real challenge. And what I can say is that I definitely saw the difference between an institution that supports artists that can support. So at the Australian Ballet, um, they have an incredible world leading medical team. They have ballet staff that teach artistic work, that assist, that help rehab from injury, like an incredible rehab program.

And what I think about when I look at independent dance artists and when I look at independent freelance musicians is these incredible Um, artists who don't have that kind of support, who have to figure out how to fix things, who might be grappling with three times the workload that might be healthy for them.

So, it might not be so much to do with the difference between dancers and musicians, as it is between the difference between being in a big company and being an independent freelancer. That's something I think about all the time. And it's something I started really thinking about deeply when I joined the board of Aus Dance Victoria and Aus Dance National.

So, you know, as a sector body in dance, you then get contact with everybody. You are lucky enough to have stories shared with you about what's happening across the sector. And so I think, um, in the same way, Dealing with symphony orchestras as opposed to a jazz ensemble or an improviser's ensemble makes me think about those things too.

But, um, I admire both. I mean, less leotards in music, I'd say.

Chelsea: You worked on the mile long opera on the High Line in New York. Can you tell us about that?

Jasmine: Oh, it was an amazing opportunity. I was so fortunate to work on that project. There was lots of different stakeholders on that project and I worked with the office performing arts and film and I was the company manager.

Um, we had a thousand singers that came. When I, which, like, isn't that amazing? Just thinking about a thousand people. Um, There were so many different things to consider, and I came into that project after huge workshops that had been held. So, there was 750... Uh, community choir members, so there are about 26 different choirs that combined from all the five boroughs of New York to participate.

Then there were 250 professional singers that were engaged and contracted and paid to be part of that show. So just the variety of, like, And then, you know, you have David Lang is the composer of the piece, Claudia Rankine doing the, um, you know, the libretto. It's just extraordinary. I mean, Stephen Sondheim came and saw the mile long opera.

Almost expired of, you know, star struck, uh, you know, faint. Um, I think Renee Fleming came. It, you know, just like, like, iconic, you know. And... People from the local neighbourhood came. People from the communities of the choir came. So the wonderful thing about that project is that the tagline underneath a mile long opera is a biography of Seven O'Clock. So it's about that twilight. moment when people are coming home from work and it's a time of transition. And all of the different sections of that opera spoke to experience of different life in that place and what it means. And the audience, the performers were stationary and the audience moved through them.

So we had four different back of house spaces across Manhattan and the different choir groups were in different places. And so there was, as you can imagine, just like the logistics was pretty mind boggling. And to particularly be catapulted in the middle, jet lagged. You know, I started in August and... It was, uh, premiered in where we were at.

And working out of DS&R, which is just like an iconic architectural firm, in an amazing building, the Starrett Lehigh building, where, you know, things happen there for fashion week. Everyone knows that building. And then to be in a site where it's a public park. But like, dealing with the architects who designed that park were involved in the project.

Like, how extraordinary. Yeah, it was so amazing. It's a once in a lifetime and I'll be forever grateful for that experience.

Chelsea: I've got one more question for you. What would you still like to achieve?

Jasmine: The thing that I find so fascinating about getting older is that if you had asked me this 10 years ago, I would have pulled out my little plan and I would have said to you, Now Chelsea, this is what I'm going to achieve by. So I had definitely, I had a list of things I wanted by 30. Did you get them? I did actually. Oh great. Well, not everything, but you know, I did want to be, I decided. That I wanted to achieve, if I could, being the company manager of the Australian Ballet. And I was very fortunate I did achieve that.

Chelsea: Sounds like hard work, that's what got you there. Skills and hard work. Yeah. Not fortune and luck.

Jasmine: Well, I don't know. And a love of being on the road. I really loved touring. I still do, actually. Um, and then sort of beyond that in, when I moved to New York, I had a real sense of trying to make the most of the time What I could in that extraordinary place. And certainly, I mean, when I finished there, I was, had worked for, um, the Public Theatre, which is such an iconic venue with, and we staged a version of Hercules in Central Park with Alan Menken and David Zippel.

And like, I couldn't believe. Actually, that was an amazing production because it had a super pro cast with a, an ensemble from our public works program, which is drawn from communities all over New York. So it was this meld of different, and I did have more ambitions there and just found myself back in Australia by a total twist of fate and a sliding doors moment after booking a vacation.

Um, when everything changed and coming back to Australia, so I have found that my ambitions and my thoughts about what's important have really changed. And particularly over the past few years, I have really in the past looked at opportunities and things about work that were external to me. One of the major reasons I took this job at the AAO was I thought to myself, okay, I've been out and I've come back.

What do I want to achieve as somebody who was born in Australia? What do I want? Who, what do I want to support? What's new? What would make this really fulfilling? And it is two... Work on art that I believe in, with artists I really care about. And honestly, I just love Aaron's music. I love where he's taking the Australian Art Orchestra, and I want to be there.

Now if I didn't get this job, I would be listening to the AAO. I'd still be there. And in terms of what I want to achieve, I have different goals for the organisation than I do for myself. I wish to learn from others and to become wiser. I want to never lose my sense of discovery and wonder. I want to always learn.

I want to share my knowledge and bring others along with me. I want to acknowledge when others know more than me and let them go and do it. And Share what I feel that I do best and be open to trying something new. And that is a huge challenge. And I also wanted to, on a personal note, I have been a total workaholic in the past. I've invested a lot of myself worth in my job. And what I learned during COVID was, you know, when everything that you work on is shut down, what does it mean? And so that's why I'm thinking about, you know, what art do I care about? And sort of, so I really care about making art. You know, something mind boggling that I just experienced was I was very, um, lucky to work with Taylor Mac, um, when, a 24 decade history of popular music, a 24 hour show came to Melbourne.

I was very fortunate, I was engaged as the local company manager. Working with that company showed me a different way of artistic. expression and work. I just went up to the Sydney Opera House on its 50th anniversary. In my country, I saw the premiere of a new work, The Bark of Millions. It was so amazing.

It was mind blowing. And in the middle there were our artists, Mama Alto, just stepping into a different phase. And I felt so proud and happy and excited. And that's what And just recognising that doing things in the past and doing things in the future, it all, it all connects together. And the people that I toured with and worked with, you know, I ran into some people I hadn't seen for years and it meant so much to me.

But I think the reason why I mention that is because... It's not only the work that we did together, the cultivation and the investment in the friendships and what's behind that. Because I don't have, um, you know, I haven't had children of my own. I have sort of not had the white picket fence and the, you know, that type of a life.

I have so many things that I'm super grateful for. And going forward, I would like to be able to say, Yes, I love taking my photographs whenever I have the spare time. And, I love my job. And, have you tried the coffee shop around the corner? Because I actually took a coffee break and sat there. You know, I don't need to be a martyr that doesn't experience life, you know.

Because it's pretty short, and, and I have to say, losing some people in our creative community in the past few weeks has really brought home to me that it's very important to just be authentic and not get lost in perfectionism, I've totally done that in the past and just kind of think about the meaning behind it all and, and so yeah, I'm so excited to be in Australia working with the Australian Art Orchestra and to be feeling like I'm building something for the future.

For however long I'm privileged enough to build this organisation with Aaron and I'll be able to say that I was part of, part of that.

Chelsea: What a beautiful answer.

Jasmine: Thanks Chelsea.

Chelsea: I love that and what a great moment to wrap up our incredible conversation. Jasmine, thank you so much for joining me on The Control Podcast. It's been wonderful speaking to you as always.

Jasmine: Oh, it's an absolute honor and a privilege and thank you for inviting me.