Emily Collins
In this episode Chelsea interviews Managing Director of Music NSW, Emily Collins.
Credits:
Produced by Chelsea Wilson
Transcript by Natalie Burne
TRANSCRIPT:
Chelsea
Hi, and welcome to control the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women working in the music and creative industries in control of their music and in control of their careers. I'm Chelsea Wilson, your host, and in this episode, I'm speaking to Managing Director of Music New South Wales. Emily Collins. Originally from the Northern Territory, Emily has over 18 years experience in arts and entertainment, working for organizations such as Darwin festival, FBI, radio and Sydney Writers Festival. In 2015. She took the helm as Managing Director of Music New South Wales, the state peak body for music. In 2020, she co created the I lost my gigs survey, which tracked major losses for the industry and informed funding and recovery initiatives. In this conversation, I asked Emily about the state of play in New South Wales post lockdown the road to economic recovery, and how her background in marketing influences her leadership style. Emily was chatting to me from the music New South Wales offices. So there's a little bit of background noise in this episode, but it's definitely worth a listen. This is Emily Collins in control.
Emily, welcome to the control Podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you.
Emily
Thanks for having me today.
Chelsea
Can you tell us what the feeling is like at the moment in Sydney in terms of the live scene? I've seen the news recently of a few venue shutdowns. What's the current state of play?
Emily
Look, I think there's a there's two sort of feelings. One is, you know, a sense of depleted energy. You know, it's been a really long, hard two years. And because of that, we're seeing changes. But at the same time, I think we're now seeing a sense of optimism and of new opportunities that we haven't seen in a while. And so I think, you know, there's a bit of a rejuvenation spirit happening here, which is really nice to see after such a long time. And, you know, everyone's pretty tired. But I think there's a lot of really incredibly dedicated people who are committed to seeing new things happen.
Chelsea
A major part of your role as Managing Director of Music, New South Wales is advocacy. Last year, you were quoted by the Music Network magazine as saying that you'd seen a shift in government attitude towards live music from a policy perspective. Can you explain what you meant by that? And do you think that's still the case? A year later?
Emily
Yeah. So I think what I meant by that was that, you know, for a long time, in New South Wales, we'd had not a combative relationship, but I think maybe a bit of misunderstanding between the music industry and government around, you know, like, with the lockout laws, and with festival restrictions and regulations, there was often, you know, a bit of policies that were not at all conducive to a thriving music industry. And so we felt like, you know, after many years of building relationships, and having great conversations with government, that we've now turned a bit of a corner, and I think there really is a sense of opportunity from government to support and help leverage the music industry for, you know, a better thriving nighttime economy. So if you look at the 24 hour, Commissioner's Office, live entertainment is a real big part of their understanding of what a nighttime economy is, you know, throughout COVID, we've seen financial commitments that are completely unprecedented in New South Wales, and with the with those financial investments, and I guess, the strategic side of the recovery money, we've been able to communicate what how we work better, you know, that the music industry is a commercial industry. We're not a strict, you know, arts nonprofit space. And so, really try building that understanding within government about, you know, the portfolio's we sit across, and yeah getting a better feeling that sense of understanding within government. It's been a really long, slow process. But I think actually, government has done a lot of work to signify that they're ready and willing to help now, which is really incredible.
Chelsea
It's great to see the support also that they've given to support act in terms of responding to the mental health crisis that's really affected the music community and behind the scenes workers. What do you think the next steps are there in terms of supporting the sort of mental health recovery?
Emily
I think from I think it's really complicated. I think there's a lot of time and uh
Chelsea
I'm not going in with the easy questions.
Emily
Everything, you know, it is, I think, going to be a bit of a slow process of rejuvenation. It's what does renewal look like for our industry and I think, you know, those industry professionals who have worked through COVID or you know, had to find other work, you know, there's a real sense of them still needing support. And I think one of the best things our industry can do to support them is get back to business as quick as possible so that there's income, because financial distress is real distress, you know, it's very hard to live a, you know, have a good wellbeing if you're if you're financially, you know, stressed. So, that's one thing we're really looking at is what sustainability looks like, what renewal looks like. So yeah, it's not an easy fix. COVID has certainly wreaked havoc on a lot of businesses across Australia and the world. So, you know, we're not alone in that. But yeah, I think a long, clear path that
Chelsea
I heard recently that Ireland is looking into and trying out the minimum wage for artists policy, and I know some other countries have looked at that. Is that something that interests you as a concept to look at? In Australia, New South Wales?
Emily
Yeah, look, I think it's a really complicated concept in a way of, you know, like, when I'm such a practical person, I start thinking through the practicalities of what that looks like, how do you choose who gets paid? You know, does everyone get paid? Who pays for that? What's the expectation on delivery? And, you know, that's just my problemsolving brain going over time. But I think, you know, the real premise behind that sort of universal basic income, specifically for musicians and creative people is that it's about the value that they contribute to society, and that it's not necessarily a financially stable career path, but that there isn't a what, I guess, a contribution to our communities. And it's about valuing that. So I completely support the principle of that, and, and, you know, supporting artists, whether that's a living wage, or whether it's just like, a lot more funding and support for the incredible input that artists make to our community. Yeah, I'm not really decided. I mean, of course, in an ideal world, I'd love to see it, it'd be amazing. But I guess it was a pragmatist and trying to work out like, how does that work? How does that work? Are we about to flip to a living wage model? It's a really long, hard road to get that up. And, you know, is it federal? Is it state run? You know, all those sort of questions that come to my mind.
Chelsea
I think we need to connect with our counterparts in Ireland, in a year or so and hear how that's going. Maybe get them out for big sound or something like that?
Emily
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so it's fantastic that they've been able to do it. And I'd love to know how they got it up and how it's working. Yeah. Because, yeah, obviously, we'd love that.
Chelsea
I think your point around society of valuing artists and creative output is a really important one. In terms of advocacy from our peak bodies, a lot of our advocacy seems to be focused on government and getting government acknowledgement. What are your thoughts around advocating to the general public more about the importance of music because if the general public are more invested and interested in music and the consuming more and wanting to value with more than potentially that's going to give us that economic boost? Because I think structurally, Australia in particular, has such a sports culture. And I think about programs like Aus kick for example, where I have nothing to do with AFL. I don't have kids that play AFL. I've don't have anything to do with it. But I've heard of Aus kick. And I remember when it came out, the campaign around Aus kick was huge. And the kind of implementation nationally, around getting kids from all different states invested from an early age in the national sport, has kind of got this excitement about the national sport. And, you know, it's kind of like the McDonald's Happy Meal or the Commonwealth Bank, you know, kids programs, the Dolomites, things like that, that get you on borders, you know, part of the culture at a young age, and then you grow up and become a footy fan. So, what would you think about some kind of advocacy or, you know, working in the general public space?
Emily
I think we're really at a point where we need audience development campaigns, you know, we really need to look at fans of music as being our biggest allies in better supporting industry development. So many surveys and studies into like, you know, what music participation looks like in this country. And you know, there's really high levels of music consumption is like 98% or something that most people listen to interact with music in some way every day. But the interesting thing is, most people don't think of themselves as being well, like people talk about music, they think of themselves as fans but whether that connects them to the industry and the Australian market, I think there's a bit of a disconnect there. So I absolutely agree that we need to think about you know, developing audiences and just kind of, I kind of say, Omar is that holding up a mirror and going see you actually do love music? This is how many times And this is how many times do you listen to it? This is, you know, listen to on your way to work. When you're working out at the gym, you listen to it this thing, you know, really literally is the soundtrack to your life. Why don't you want to pay for it? Why don't you want to pay more for it? Why don't you participate in it more? You know, and that's the really interesting thing for me is that and I think that's worked for the industry to do with audiences. And really looking at how we connect that dot a bit, you know, because it's not that we were not struggling to get fans is that we're struggling to I know fans to get fancying as part of their core identity.
Chelsea
Yeah, that's a really interesting point. So can we talk about the Australian music industry network with the former chair of Amen. The network and the model has changed in recent years, do you think it works as a model for as a national music voice?
Emily
Look, I think its strengths is that it's a connection, or it's a group of eight state and territory, state experts. So you know, I'm my job is not looking at the federal landscape or the national landscape. My job is that I know New South Wales very well, just as all of my state counterparts, they know their states very well. That to me, doesn't automatically mean that we as a group know, as national federal status strategy. You know, I think what we are is like a group of specific experts on those states and territories. So I think it works in that, like, us being connected sharing programs, you know, trying to, I guess, you know, not reinvent the wheel every time we do something, because there's so many similarities between what we do, but I don't think that automatically means that we then go, okay, export is a major strategy of us like, yes, it's a part of my strategy is in New South Wales, but it's, you know, I think there's still room for a national body, because a lot of people thinking about that, what that model looks like, you know, there's a UK Music is a really great example of, you know, that sort of umbrella organization that brings in a lot of disparate music voices with, you know, very specific needs or remits, and helps them, you know, be a united front on a national level. And I think, like, there are a lot of great organizations who do work in that space already. But it would be great to include more voices in that
Chelsea
you've been managing director of music, New South Wales for seven years, it's a massive role. Is there anything that you wish you knew when you first started?
Emily
Look, you know, I don't know if I, I guess I wish I knew a pandemic was coming. I think it's been a real, you know, I have been here seven years. And it's been a fascinating time. And every year, I've learned something new, whether it's the new changes happening outside, you know, the organization with politics, or, you know, the environment or with, you know, yeah other, you know, crises happening, or whether it's stuff that's happening, like within New South Wales, or us doing new programs and trying to focus on new strategic initiatives. So yeah, there's always been something new, which is why I'm still here, because I love learning new things and better understanding the industry and trying to keep, I guess, having an impact on positive change.
Chelsea
Can you talk about the relationship with music, New South Wales, and one of your partners, green music Australia, I feel like some great conversations were happening in the music industry in terms of sustainability, reducing waste, using recyclable materials at festivals and events. But with COVID, the single use plastic, the plastic masks, all that's returned, understandably, because of hygiene, but all the artists, writers, all that sort of stuff, it feels like we've taken a major, major step backwards. What do you think the next steps are from here in terms of trying to reconsider being an environmentally conscious music industry within the COVID context?
Emily
I think there's many facets to that conversation, one being, you know, like, climate change is real, you know, if you look at what's going on, currently in Australia, around with flooding, you know, that's going to impact a lot of the music industry. You know, not just the sort of Greenfield outdoor sites around Byron Bay, and you know, all that Northern Rivers area and southern Queensland but, you know, people touring, you know, climate change is a real real challenge and threat to the music industry. And I would really love to see people take it more seriously as part of their work rather than, you know, I have this thing where I'm like, I would love the music industry to one day be able to talk about its impact on the world rather than just itself. If that makes sense, like a way where our focus is on climate change, and you know, wellbeing and all those other sort of things that are a result or, you know, using our power to affect change in the world, rather than just talking about how great we are as an industry and why people should fund us, you know, sort of looking more outward than inward. That's the long term plan.
Chelsea
I love that as a vision, that's incredible.
Emily
And using our power to do that, but I think, you know, we also do have power and a responsibility to do things now. I think COVID has, you know, like you said, single use plastic has gone. I mean, it's interesting, some people have stopped using single use plastic by just saying, we don't provide anything now, I'm going to bring your own water bottle, bring your own cutlery, we're not, you know, there's too many chances of COVID contamination, so do it yourself, which I think is a really fascinating, I hate to use this phrase, personal responsibility around the environment, you know, and I think that is something that is really great to see more of, it'd be great to see more of that. I think there's like a lot of people like feet, you know, doing incredible initiatives around touring. So the solar fund, the solar fund, that is being run by Heidi from Cloud Control, amazing initiative around, you know, making musicians more aware of their, their carbon footprint, with touring, you know, whilst there has been an increase in single use plastic sadly, no one’s been touring. And that's actually been kind of great for the environment. So you know, there's, there's been, these pluses and minuses, I guess, throughout various things. So I think, yeah, how we build back better, is really part of that question, how do we reduce our footprint, but also still deliver outcomes, and, you know, bring music to the people across Australia?
Chelsea
Less CD manufacturing. Since CDs have kind of all but wrapped up. So there's a big music industry contribution there, although that wasn't my choice.
Emily
And I hear that tapes now. That actual tapes are being made more than CDs. So you know, we've got we've come full circle.
Chelsea
That's wild, isn't it? I know vinyl continues to increase. I did actually hear that there was a slight CD increase last year, but I think we can just hold Adele responsible for that. Maybe Ed Sheeran, as well still sells a few CDs. Apparently, a lot of the pressing vinyl backlog last year was because of Adele's record.
Emily
I saw some hilarious Tik Toks from record store owners in the UK being like, Why did I just get like 80 Adele records, like no one's gonna buy these. I mean I love Adele.
Chelsea
I think people do. I think people do, even people that don't have turntables will, if they're a big fan, they'll buy it because it looks like a collectible item that they just sort of put on, put on a frame or put on the mantelpiece and never even open it.
Emily
Which is just a fascinating thing. Because, you know, when I was growing up there, having, you know, memorabilia and merch and all those, you know, physical artifacts of your music, fandom were really important. And then we've had such a digital, a shift that, you know, how do you demonstrate who you are other than through, like, band T shirts. And so now it's become about, oh, I'll own a record, even if I don't have a record play. Like that blows my mind. And also in the context of the the, I guess, climate and, you know, sustainability conversation, like, what role does that kind of mass production have been in, you know, I guess, trying to be better than just making things for things like,
Chelsea
that's right, and how many tote bags do we actually need?
Emily
No more. No more tote bags
Chelsea
No, no more tote bags.
But you know, it's been a unexpected shift or pressure on musicians, I guess, because noting that physical sales of records and CDs might have diminished, you want something to sell at gigs and try and still earn some revenue. So now musicians are not just becoming people who make records but people who have a clothing line or you know, no one would call it a clothing line. But essentially, if you're making a variety of T shirts, you're almost becoming a, you know, a cottage industry clothing line and tote bag manufacturer as well as, as a content maker. What is the environmental impact on that given we know the fashion industry is one of the worst industries for the environment? So yeah, how does our role work in that? I have seen a few artists riders that are putting environmental sustainable clauses do you recommend that artists put those kinds of conditions on their rider?
Emily
Absolutely. I think use your power when and however you can for you to live the life that is aligned with your values. So if that means like requesting no plastic cups and no water bottles with your rider do it. Absolutely. And, you know, I think there's ways of doing merch that are way more environmentally sustainable than some of the models that we're seeing, you know, a band that just went bought like 100, plain T shirts from beanies of all different sizes and printed this their logos on those old T shirts. Yeah. So, you know, you can still do fandom, but in a better way, with like recycling fashion, and not just like leading into that fast fashion market. So I think there's just that yeah, I'm all about like people rethinking that. It's like, there's this siren going fast. It's all happening
Chelsea
Sydney realness.
Emily
It's a daily occurrence. But yeah, I'm really fascinated with, you know, young entrepreneurs and bands and business people thinking about, you know, what are the quintessential, I guess, takeaways from music, and you know, like, how you listen, how you participate, and rethinking those in a way that's better for the environment better for people. And, you know, exciting.
Chelsea
Changing track here. Last December, there was an announcement that industry partners including APRA amcos, Aria PPCA, and Australia council via Support Act have commissioned a review on sexual harm, sexual harassment and systematic discrimination on contemporary music industry, which is going to be released in June this year, you werepart of the working group convened by Annabelle heard from PBCA, can you tell me what you're hoping to see from this study?
Emily
So the thing about the music industry review is that it is a chance for people to talk about not just what maybe they've experienced, but also their ideas for change. So you know, we're looking to hear from people from all walks of the music industry, whether you'd be a grassroots artist, or whether you're running a label, or whatever it is, that people actually come forward and put their ideas for change down. But also, as a part of the review, it's actually unpacking how power abuse works in an industry like ours, and looking at the critical points of where you know, things happen, that are unsafe, or you know, where harm happens. And it's unpacking the reasons. So that's the sort of the systemic discrimination part of like, what systemic factors contribute to our industry sometimes being not a very safe place for people. So what I would like to see in the report, which, you know, obviously, depends on what what the consultants come up with, but it's a bit of a summary of how we've gotten to where we are. And, you know, what, what, that, you know, where those, I guess, critical points are, and then also a plan for how we think we can make it better. And, you know, what is individual responsibility? What is like a company organization's responsibility, and then what's our collective responsibility as a whole sector, in terms of changing this culture, and, you know, all with the full acknowledgement that the music industry exists within society, you know, that these issues are also societal issues, we're not going to fix everything, but that there's things we can do as an industry to make it better, and that we have an obligation and a responsibility to do so.
Chelsea
Do you think the Me Too movement had a positive impact on the music industry? What have you noticed kind of working in the sector pre me to post Me too, I mean, I've noticed that at least we have these conversations now, but I feel like we're much behind other industries, like the film industry, who kind of seem to pick things up a lot quicker.
Emily
I think the Me Too, like any kind of thing that draws attention to harm is like, is good, it is absolutely a good thing for our industry to go through, we need to go through it, we need to, you know, better understand our industry and, and know and address the harm that happens. I think with any of these kinds of movements, they're multifaceted. And if you looking at say like me to in Hollywood, you know, that's looking at directors, but like, what about, you know, all the other professionals that work in that space? You know, is it it's not just about famous actors, it's also about, you know, staff and staff on production, who are on set you know, like, what's the working conditions for them that contribute to you know, whether it's gender discrimination, or whatever it is that there's, there are many layers to these problems and the fast I guess, you know, rapid fire play out in the media doesn't actually solve the problem. It draws attention to it which is good it, but it doesn't often go deep enough and that there's a lot more issues and often they're systemic, that really needs to be addressed. And that's why the review we feel is something that's really timely for us. And it's also one of the first of its kind in terms of an industry coming together to take a look at itself and hold up a mirror to its own behavior, rather than a particular organization or particular company. So I think, you know, it's incredible to see the support we've had with the music industry review, you know, particularly from Annabelle from Aria and Dean from APRA and Kirsty rivers. And, you know, Clive Miller from support act like we've had so many people backing this work. And, you know, as well as like all the major labels and major tour promotion companies like festival, people are getting behind this, they understand that it needs to happen, and it's really heartening to see the willingness for change. So, you know, all we can do is like, help help it along and hope that you know, this is the really important first phase of what change looks like for us.
Chelsea
Back to music, New South Wales, it's really great to see sound advice sessions happening for regional centres like Tweed Heads, Lismore, Coffs Harbour Armadale to people in the regional centers of New South Wales, you need to check it out, it must be incredibly challenging for your role to try and service the industry in the community statewide. I mean, it's a huge state and travel has been really limited. Can you comment on how the music scenes in some of those regional centers have been going the last 12 months and what your kind of plans are and what you'd like to see in terms of providing support in regional areas.
26:39
So we actually have seven regional music offices. So there's seven offices employed by music, New South Wales, based in regional areas, it's been the first, I think, in Australia, but we've had that many people based regionally. And, you know, we frame it as employing local people to deliver local music outcomes. And so it's really about connecting people, and, you know, helping them connect with opportunities, and develop their careers. So that's been a really fascinating program that we've been running for, I think, nearly three years now. Well, it's sort of when there's a pilot, and then we've now got seven offices. And you know, it, the difference, it makes us to having people on the ground, you know, I really hate that approach of, you know, the fly in fly out model where some someone from the city comes in and tells people living in regional areas, how to have a career, I think that's really shit, excuse my language, but I think that's a really terrible way to operate. And we have with you on that, too. And so we decided a couple of years ago that we weren't going to do it. And then if we were really committed to supporting regional outcomes for musicians, then you know, we actually had to muscle up and put some money behind it and employ regional people to deliver those outcomes. So that's been a really great initiative for us in a lot of learnings as well. And I think, you know, like, like many people in the music, community, regional areas, have been isolated and disconnected through COVID. Without regional touring networks happening without regional tours, they've been even more isolated. So like, there's performance opportunities for regional artists or have been less than I'd say, you know, more impacted. So yeah, it's really tough for venues and regional areas. And I think, you know, that through this program, we've been able to try and bring people together to help, I guess, be take charge of their own communities, you know, that that's the one thing that I'm a big supporter of as, like, I'm not going to make a music industry or music community for you have to do that yourself. But I'm here to help you do it. And you know, if you want live music in your, in your town, no one else is gonna do it. If you don't, you know, it really is you have to step step up into those roles. And so that's really what we've been trying to encourage with this program. And I think we've seen some really great outcomes as well. So yeah, watch this space for more things happening in regional New South Wales.
Chelsea
Yeah, it's brilliant. I mean, we really need those champions of music in in all of those areas, and it's brilliant that they're able to access that support. Going back a little bit earlier in your career. You were previously the development manager at FBI radio in Sydney, and you also worked on the smack awards and delivering the arts program. What do you think some of your biggest learnings were from your time in community radio?
Emily
I think community radio is just so so vital to not just to our Australian, I guess, musical music industry but but also to our identity as a country. You know, having local stations is it gives people a chance to connect in a different way. A with media and with a conversation about you know, their town and where they're from. And, you know, I loved working FBI radio because it was so many people, I guess makes mostly a station built of volunteers, like many community, community radio stations are, and so much passion for music, passion for community. And people, you know, I guess, congregating around that one sort of, you know, flavor of whatever the station is. So I think, yeah, so vital to our industry as a whole. And I loved I loved my time there as it was just like super fun and got to work on great projects and make so many incredible people. Yeah, I'm a big fan.
Chelsea
Did you have any kind of pinch me moments with different touring artists coming in for interviews and that kind of thing.
Emily
FKA Twigs walked through at one point, and I was just like, generally always in the back office and not in a studio, thankfully. So I didn't have to keep my cool.
Chelsea
You've also worked in marketing. You've worked for Darwin festival, Sydney Writers Festival, the underbelly Arts Festival. I don't know how you fit all this in and you're not like 120? Can you share with us some learnings from this time? I'm particularly interested in what you learned as far as what you think really helped sell tickets and build audience. From a marketing perspective? Was it some particular photos that you think really worked? Or the programming?
Emily
Yeah, ah, look, I think because yeah, marketing is a special, you know, took me a long time to realize that marketing was really about selling tickets.
Chelsea
Yes. festival like that. Yes. They're looking at the marketing person, they're looking at the ticket report and going, Hello, what's happening here?
Emily
Yeah, and it is a really interesting process. And I mean, the one, there's a few sort of things that I would say, like one marketing is all about trust, you know, you how you present the brand, whether it's like not having typos, or using great imagery and having clean design. That's about building trust with an audience and consistency. And so yeah, that's really important. So even like, throughout my time, at music, New South Wales, you know, I care a lot about our brand and how we look and not having typos, and all those sorts of things, which some people don't mind about. But I'm, you know, that's something I care about. So I think you're building trust with your audience and keeping consistency. But I also think, like marketing is just one part of a greater engine when you're trying to do those things. And if you don't have great tickets, sorry, great programming, it's very hard to sell good tickets, you know, it is you can't fool people. So most of the time, you're trying to build trust with them, you're not trying to sell something, not like a dud product. You're trying to encourage them to think about whether they would enjoy it. And so yeah, it's a it's a, it's a difficult process sometimes. And sometimes you're like, Oh, we sold nothing to that show. And that's a real bummer. But I guess we just didn't hit it on that one. You know, it didn't resonate with an audience and try and try and engage that audience mood and feeling is really hard. And there are a lot of incredible programmers out there who are, you know, really switched on with what the mood of a public is, and ticket buying public? So, yeah, kudos to them. Because it's really hard.
Chelsea
It is hard. Sometimes I think some programmers are just a little ahead of the time. So you know, they're booking things that they know are really exciting, that they're booking things that excites them, but maybe audiences here aren't hip to that genre yet, you know, but also, it's really competitive in a festival context, because there could be 50 shows that you're having to promote. And some are going to be key priorities to sell because there's a higher box office target, others are going to be easy. So you've got your high profile ones, but a lot of it's about education as well. Right. So trying to explain to the parties, why they should care about something in the first place.
Emily
Which I think is that sort of, you know, was talking about building trust is that you want to be able to be able to say to them, trust me, this is good. And for them to go, okay. I don't know. I'm not convinced. But I'll come along.
Chelsea
I think you can see that with a lot of the kind of destination festivals like you WOMAdelaide or golden plains, or, you know, people will go every year or Woodford Folk Festival, because they know this is going to be a great event. I almost don't care who's playing because I know that I'm going to have a good time. This atmosphere is going to be amazing. I know I'm going to discover things and I'm happy to go with the flow. Whereas for other festivals, maybe, you know, like a Rising festival here in Melbourne or a vivid or something where everything's individually ticketed. You need a completely different marketing approach, right for how you're going to sell those individual events.
Emily
Yeah, yeah, whether you're, you know, whether you've got trust in the brand, or whether you've, you would use, you know, your destination festivals or those sort of ones that come along, and it doesn't matter what you program. Like, that's an easy sell in a way if you've got that reputation, which takes a long time to build, but yeah, when you've got those more umbrella events, where it's like, you've got an umbrella brand, with a lot of individual events, it's a really hard thing to pull together. And you know, you'll have some hit hits, and you'll have some misses. And that's just the nature of it. And yeah, it's, it's a tricky world marketing, which is maybe why I don't do it anymore.
Chelsea
This is gonna sound like a bit of a David Bowie reference, but can you chat to us about your Berlin years? You specialize in social media and website design? So how do you think that experience and your marketing experience informs your leadership of music, New South Wales in terms of that digital presence? I did notice in your staff, you have a dedicated content producer
Emily
Yep. Yeah, I think yeah, like I said, Before, I really care about how we present ourselves as an organization. And I think all those years of working in marketing and building websites for clients that I did freelance for a couple of years, you know, really started to understand like what's needed in order to start building that trust and building that brand around it. And, you know, I was very lucky, I came to music New South Wales, when it was it existed before I came. But I felt like I was able to bring a bit of a, you know, my marketing background into it to help, I guess, establish it even more so as the trusted and respected state music body.
Chelsea
Well, it is about relationships, isn't it marketing, it's about building that relationship with audiences. And I guess with an organization like music, New South Wales, there's a responsibility there that you are representing that music industry. So you're representing it to everyone. Musicians, music industry, workers, government, the public. So being able to represent us and be professional, look good, is, you know, it's just essential. But what was your time in, in Berlin? Like, you're there for two years? Is that right?
Emily
Yeah, nearly three, but yeah, yeah. I have the best time ever. I worked freelance for three and just making websites basically for a few people and made some music myself and just, you know, had a bit of time off from, I'd been working back to back sort of festival contracts for a couple of years. You know, I cut my teeth in music festivals with the Cockatoo Island Festival in 2005. And then two great escape festivals back to back and then sort of went across to the Writers Festival and underbelly festival. And, you know, it was just like, a lot. So I was like, I just need a little break to focus on think about what I want to do. So yeah, Berlin was that for me.
Chelsea
So you're also a musician? How do you feel working in behind the scenes roles affects your creative practice?
Emily
It affects it a lot. I talk about music all day long. So often my, I guess, release, and, you know, way, way I am creative these days is not music. I think that will change, you know, at some point, but yeah, these days, I am much more of a cook. I'm a I'm a bit of a hobby chef. So I focus my energy on doing what I feel like, you know, not necessarily related to my job, because it is very hard to you know, I'm not trying to have a music career as a as a performer or songwriter. It's something I do for joy for myself. But then, yeah, I do other things for joy as well, more as a antidote to a rather stressful job.
Chelsea
So what was your lockdown experience? Like? Was it mainly baking? Or did you get back into some music making? Not that, I'm sure you didn't have much spare time because you're probably on zoom the entire time?
Emily
Well, to be honest, I didn't have much spare time. I think I was busier during lockdown than I was pre- lock down. You know, my, Julia Robinson from Australia festival Association and I we ran, I lost my gig, which is the sort of data capture project that launched in March 2020. And that kept us busy for a couple of months as well as then trying to look at, you know, what New South Wales needed. So, you know, it was just basically campaign after campaign after campaign. And, you know, I ate very well. Maybe a little too well during my lockdown. You know, it. It was certainly a it's been a really, really intense busy time.
Chelsea
Can you tell us more about I lost my gig.
Emily
So we actually stole the idea, like all good ideas, we stole it. So out of when South by Southwest canceled. I think as a couple of weeks earlier, we back due to COVID, we saw a link going around, which was called I lost my gig. And we're like, that's actually really smart, we should be capturing data, it's, you know, With all these events cancelling. So, I think it was like the 12th, or the 13th of March when they canceled, you know, major events. So the 500. And that's when we went, Oh, wait a second, we need to, we need to do something. And so I built the website and the survey. And with credit with Julie Robinson, we did it in two hours, and we launched it straight away. You know, it was, and so by the end of that weekend, I think we'd already had like $15 million of lost income recorded. And throughout that whole sort of first lockdown period, we ended up telling, I think it was like $355 million of lost income and lost jobs, and lost opportunities, which was an incredibly, you know, devastating project to work on. And you know, it really just hearing the stories, you know, we had nearly 13,000 people record their gig losses through that site. And, you know, we then use that data to advocate to government about the need for job keeper. So we, you know, we wouldn't ever take credit for that, but it's I think it certainly helped put, it definitely helped, like an understanding and understanding of how people were being impacted. And, you know, it was a really, really, yeah, like I said, a difficult project to be on, because it was like a, you know, Julia and I were thinking about, what is a pandemic? And how does that affect us, you know, like having the freakout that everyone else was having also sort of working 20 hours a day trying to get this this project up and running. And, you know, media were all over it, which was great, because it helped draw attention to how the performing live performance industries are being impacted. And so yeah, we, you know, we were quoted in press releases, and, you know, government statements about the impact and about consequent funding programs. So we feel that was a really, really effective sort of initiative that really was made up in two hours, and we had no idea what we're doing. But yeah, we learnt a lot through that
Chelsea
It was a really significant project. And I'm super grateful that you did it. So thank you. Some of the data that came throughout that time period, as well around artists, superannuation was also really illuminating, and also quite devastating. And the government made the offer that people could withdraw super, but then we saw a lot of that data that a lot of musicians had less than $10,000 of superannuation. Anyway, have you had any kind of conversations or thoughts about musicians and superannuation? And it's not just musicians, it's actually all freelancers. Really.
Emily
I think there is a lot of work to be done around job security, income security. And I guess that, you know, Superannuation is one part of that like sustainability conversation for that, you know, people working in the gig economy. I think what we really realized, through the I lost my gig project in particular, is that how many people weren't represented by organizations that they were cross industry, you know, hearing from people who like build stages from musical theater on the weekend, but then also, like, go on tours with festivals during festival season. And, and so when they talk about what they do, they're sort of across everything but like, who's actually taking care of them. And that became really apparent. And it's something that we've spoken a lot about, like, with a loss making, because like, how do we better support the the people working in the gig economy. And it's, yeah, I think it's a larger piece of work that like, slightly beyond me at this second, because it's just like, it feels like it needs attention and new thinking. And, you know, that's when you, like you were saying before, around the living wage and universal basic income, that stuff, that's when it really becomes important is those people who aren't protected by you know, employment law because they're under contract, they're just, you know, casual workers or whatever. Like, they're the ones who've really, really suffered and I still think about, you know, some of the stories we heard during that time of people losing work and losing basically the what they've been working on for like 40 years and then having no career prospects and yeah, it's really it's really awful thing and then realizing they don't have any super saved up as well. Because it's not just musicians is the point is like, there's all these other people.
Chelsea
So how do you take care of yourself through all of this because it's a lot for you to be managing your staff managing your team, feeling the weight of wanting to represent everybody that's involved in music advocating to government, taking care of yourself also setting up the I lost my gig going to the AME meeting speaking to your other state reps, how does Emily look after Emily?
Emily
Oh you make me, I feel tired when you say it like that. Look, I have pretty strict rules with myself around overtime. So I, I try very hard to work within my nine to five, I generally try not to look at emails after unless there's like a global crisis happening, which is kind of why there was such widespread burnout, I think everyone threw their normal routines out the window and just went where the energy was needed. But I've now sort of tried to rebalance after, you know, two years of crisis mode. And yeah, pretty strict with my working hours, you know, I try and go to the gym as much as I can, you know, I, I'm really big on finding joy and frivolity where I can, you know, whether that seeing friends at dinner parties, or going to gigs, or whatever makes you happy, swimming in the ocean, really just leaning into those things wherever you can, because the work is not going to go anywhere, it's not going to get easier. It just it needs to be done. So you know, if you're in for the long haul, you need to survive.
Chelsea
That and that email inbox isn't gonna go anywhere.
Emily
No. And I have a, I have a bit of a rule of like, unless it's a crisis. Don't don't like it can wait till tomorrow. And, you know, there are times when there are genuine needs to keep working and work outside of those hours or to, you know, you've got to reschedule a bunch of things or, you know, whatever it is like and go with it when it when, when it's needed. But if it's not, don't be a martyr, because you just end up burning yourself out. And the thing I learned through all this work is that you’re no good to anybody, if you're burnt out, you actually have an obligation to take care of yourself so that you can be better for your community.
Chelsea
It's great advice. Burnout is something that I'm continuously having to struggle with and manage, because there's so many things I want to do. And then how do I make it all work? And? Yeah,
Emily
It’s hard. I think as well, you know, this idea of self care is puts the onus on individuals to fix their problems. But I think also like, we need to look at what is a reasonable expectation of staff and of people in our industry, it's actually this broader systemic change that needs to happen, because self care is so I guess, well, burnout is the product of capitalism. So if you're looking at, you know, why everyone's so exhausted, so it's not sustainable, how we work, it really isn't. And something needs to change, because this is just ongoing, and we're going to, we're going to lose people from our industry, we're gonna lose people from the creative arts who can't keep working like this. And that's a real worry for me. So I'm really interested in like, how we investigate and explore like better work practices. So we actually have people who stay in our industry and that they can have career longevity.
Chelsea
I've got one more question for you. I wanted to ask you about the time that you put on a festival in your own backyard. Who was on the lineup?
Emily
Oh, gosh. So that was when I was like 21. And there was a bit of a backstory to that one because I was dating this guy at the time. And he was a drummer in a band. And he went overseas for three months, and he left me and my best friend his car. And he said, you know, here's my car. You guys can just drive it around. We're like, yay so fun we’ve got a car. And the very next day after he left, someone stole it and firebombed it. Yeah. And so like it was completely burned out and complete a complete wreck. And so we were like, shit, shit shit shit shit. How are we going to buy him a new car shit. So we held a fundraiser festival in my backyard called Car Bomb. And we made four grand to buy him a new car. And we had it. We had it the day he got back from overseas. So he was like, oh, a party. Great. And they were like, by the way, it’s for your car.
Chelsea
That's incredible.
Emily
Yeah, it was pretty fun. Like, it actually was. I mean, I was already working in a festivals at the time, but um, I met so many people through that event, you know, I lived in a place out in Tempe and you're sort of in a western New South Wales, Sydney sorry. And you know, there's a massive backyard so like, we need to put on a festival and we lived sort of right near the airport. So we didn't have any sound complaints. And yeah, we had eight bands play that we just found around the around New Town and asked them to come and play and we paid them as well as you know, raising money and Yeah, yeah, it was it was hilarious now that I think about it was that we had Car Bomb two, because it was so fun. So I've actually had to festivals in my back yard. So many people, I met so many people working through that, you know, people I still work with in a much more professional context now. But yeah,
Chelsea
but also best girlfriend ever. Well, that's debatable, but yeah. welcome party plus replacement car. I mean, that was not your fault.
Emily
It didn't feel it felt like it at the time. I was like, Oh, shit.
Chelsea
That's an incredible story. And thank you for sharing it with us. And thank you so much for all of the work that you do. And for joining me on the control podcast, it's been so nice to chat with you.
That was Emily Collins in control. For more info, please check the links to music New South Wales in the show notes. Please subscribe to control on your preferred podcast platform. And if you have a moment, please rate and leave a review. It helps others find the podcast. This episode was recorded on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung land and I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and all First Nations peoples. Until next time, this is Chelsea Wilson signing off.
