Deborah Cheetham
Production, editing and transcription by Chelsea Wilson
Produced in collaboration with Quiet Riot This episode is sponsored by Melbourne Recital Centre.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
opera, people, composer, ensemble, orchestra, singers, years, Australian, write, music, pandemic, company, artistic director, performance, first nations, story, Melbourne, arts
TRANSCRIPT
Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to game changers and change makers in the music and creative industries. I’m Chelsea Wilson, your host and in this episode I’m thrilled to be speaking to the award winning Yorta Yorta soprano, artistic director, broadcaster, composer and educator Deborah Cheetham.
For more than 25 years Deborah Cheetham has been a leader and pioneer in the Australian arts sector, creating change in the music industry landscape and advocating for First Nations representation.
A graduate of the NSW Conservatorium of Music with an international career as a soprano vocalist, she established her own organization Short Black Opera in 2009, a national not-for-profit opera company devoted to the development of Indigenous singers. The following year she produced the premiere of her first opera Pecan Summer. This landmark work was Australia’s first Indigenous opera and has been a vehicle for the development of a new generation of Indigenous opera singers. In 2019 Deborah Cheetham established the One Day in January project designed to develop and nurture Indigenous orchestral musicians.
As a composer she has been commissioned to write for major Australian ensembles including the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, Australia String Quartet, West Australian Symphony Orchestra and Flinders Quartet.
Appointed as an Officer of the Order of Australia, for “distinguished service to the performing arts” she was also inducted to the Honour Roll of Women in Victoria and received an Honorary Doctorate from the University of South Australia. She has also received the Sir Bernard Heinze Memorial Award for service to music in Australia, the Merlyn Myer Prize for Composition, was inducted to the Victorian Aboriginal Honour Roll and more recently was presented with the Lifetime achievement award at the Women in Music Awards. .
In 2020 she was Composer-in-residence for the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra and commenced her appointment at the Sir Zelman Cowen School of Music, Monash University as Professor of Music practice.
In this conversation I ask Deborah about establishing her own organization, her journey from classical flautist to lead vocalist, the one day in january project and her composition series ‘woven song’ which will be performed on November 2nd at Melbourne Recital Centre.
This is Deborah Cheetham in Control.
Chelsea: Hi, Deborah, thank you so much for joining me on the Control Podcast. I'm so excited to be chatting with you.
Deborah: It is so great to be here. Thank you for inviting me. This is exciting. It might actually be one of my first podcasts. Can I say that?
Chelsea: Oh, wow, brilliant.
Deborah: Yeah, one of the first.
Chelsea: Well, I wanted to say firstly, a huge congratulations on your recent Lifetime Achievement Award win from the Women in Music Awards. That's so incredible. What did that feel like for you?
Deborah: Oh, it was incredible. I.. that award ceremony has grown in stature over the last couple of years. And that just shows, that I don't know, our society was hungry for that. Hungry for the recognition of what women do in our industry, hungry for the recognition that we do hold up, I reckon more than half of the sky can I say just quietly, and to be counted amongst those that were nominated to be to be part of that evening, albeit virtually, because I was down on Gunditjmara country writing some music, and I couldn't be up there in Queensland, but I feel honored. I feel inspired. I feel like it makes me want to do more actually, to live up to that honor, I suppose and to keep making a contribution wherever I can.
Chelsea: You've had such an extensive career across composing performance, establishing an arts company touring, education, so there's so much that I'd love to ask you about. But if we can, I'd really like to go back to early in your career. I know you played flute. What was the journey like from being an orchestra member to taking centre stage as a soprano vocalist?
Deborah: Wow, orchestra member is probably a stretch, I did play flute and I was dedicated to it. I had some great teachers. My final teacher, I guess in a in a succession of teachers was Nicholas Negerevich. And Nick Negerevich was principal pic (piccolo), and rank and file flautist for the Australian Opera Ballet orchestra. And he was also a teacher at the New South Wales Con (conservatorium). And I was just really so lucky to have such an inspirational encouraging teacher and, and I kept at it, you know, and I got my AMus and I played in a couple of ensembles, and I did a couple of recitals. But Nick always knew that my great love was opera. You know, he knew that I wanted to be a singer and, and we shared that love. As I mentioned, he was he was principal pic in the in the Opera Orchestra. So we would have wonderful lessons where I would develop my abilities and my skills and my repertoire as a flautist. But then we would have almost as much time after the lesson just talking about the current season and you know, which operas were coming up and which singers I just heard, and it was a wonderful time to share in that.
Chelsea: So why flute, if opera and singing was always in your DNA?
Deborah: (Laughs). Why flutes, why flute the $64 million-dollar question? Why the flute? because they ran out of clarinets when I was in high school, and we were being handed instruments to learn. We had a wonderful and inspirational music teacher, Jennifer King, she's still a friend to this day. In fact, I spoke to her today. But when they were handing out instruments to learn, I have my eye on this shiny black clarinet, and I could see that they were running out fast. And the girl in front of me in the queue, she got the last clarinet, and I got the first flute and I just, I didn't know about this instrument, this flute, how's this gonna go? This is not what I, I didn't see myself as a flautist at that stage, but my embouchure was well suited to flute. Yeah, I excelled early on at the time, I was also very dedicated to my studies as a pianist. And you know, later in life, having had the experience of playing an orchestral instrument and also playing that great harmonic, you know soundscape that the piano is. It's really been so beneficial to my career as a composer, and as a singer, because, you know, I've been able to study my own repertoire, and prepare at the piano. And that's, I don't regret those years at all. In fact, I loved playing piano and I love playing the flute, but singing, singing was always my great passion.
Chelsea: When did you discover opera? I mean, it's not, you know, wasn't on mainstream commercial radio.
Deborah: Well, more than you think. I mean, they often use operatic music in commercials all the time, actually.
Chelsea: Yeah, that's true.
Deborah: Back in the day, the luck made you it was the British Airways commercial for many years. So it's so like, sort of like the fabric of our lives, classical music even if it's not identified as such. In high school again this same music teacher Jennifer King took me to see my first opera.
Chelsea: Wow.
Deborah: 19th of February 1979. I sat in row L seat number 23 concert hall at the Sydney Opera House. Dame Joan Sutherland waltzed into my life as the Merry Widow. I was never the same again.
Chelsea: Wow. So it was just like that light bulb moment?
Deborah: Well, it was it was one of those moments. I'm sure everyone's had them in regard to something. How can this have been going on my entire life? Where have I been? Where has it been? It was like a match made in heaven, me and opera. I just, I loved everything about it. It was a beautiful belle epoque. I think Christian Dickson was the that was the designer of that particular production. The concert hall that magnificent sounds so wonderful for sopranos, but danger and Sutherland. I mean, what's not to love? So yeah, that was my first opera. And people will often say to me, “Hey, the Merry Widow. That's a pretty easy access point”. But honestly, later that week, I had student rush tickets to go and see Jenufa by Janaceck, probably the most bleak story and all of opera. And I love that equally. So yeah, opera was it's been my longest relationship.
Chelsea: I often say that about jazz, that jazz was my first love
Deborah: There you go. You see you understand?
Chelsea: What do you think it is about opera that resonates with you and resonates with audiences?
Deborah: Yeah, that opportunity to tell the big stories, that narrative, the fact that all of the arts come together to create opera, you know, it's all of the arts combined. I often say that, you know, more is more, and opera is more. And when it's done well, I think that there's no more powerful genre in the arts than opera. So I think that of all the instruments that you could choose to play, and let's face it, I mean, they all have their unique quality and, and strength and beauty, but there's nothing, there's nothing that comes close to the human voice. And Australia, we've produced some incredible opera singers, not only Sutherland, but you know, so many others besides, and we were so lucky in those in those years of Sutherland and Bonynge, running our flagship company, because they brought many Australian singers home and many other great singers do Australia as well. But many of our great singers from around the world, came home to Australia and sang with Sutherland Bonynge over those years. And how lucky was it to be a young student getting really cheap tickets? I mean, come on, you're going to be really jealous when you hear this, but I could go to three or four offers a week and have changed from $15. So you know, it was access and I immersed myself in, in the art form. And I think that it gives you the scope to really go deep into stories of great poignancy. dramatic stories, stories that are actually hard to tell are broken do that because music, music is a way of conveying a truth that it sort of transcends the analytical and takes it straight into your soul. That's what music does for me and opera with its combination of all the other arts besides, I think also as a Yorta Yorta woman, I would say that my ancestors knew or kind of opera probably invented opera, really, if we're honest, you know, this, this coming together of painting up and wearing costume and telling a story and using music and dance. This is something that First Nations Australians have known for millennia.
Chelsea: Yeah, much before the kind of, you know, Italian classic canon of opera.
Deborah: Hey, and I am grateful. I am grateful to the Florentine Camerata. Well done guys, and that 300 years of history and the whole development of Bel Canto technique. And, you know, as a composer, as a singer, I write in that canon, and with that musical vocabulary, so I don't see these contributions to the history of sung narrative, I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I see them, I see them as continuity. And I think that that's the great strength of this sung story that began on this continent, and has been practiced here longer than anywhere else in the world. Every other practice of sung narrative and every culture has it adds to that and let's face it here in Australia, we have so many great cultures who come together to make up what we know as modern Australia. And so, you know, we should be really good at opera and we can be.
Chelsea: Can you think back to your first opera performance? What was the show and the role? And what was that like?
Deborah: Yeah, well, I can because whilst I've had a career as a singer, in recital, both here in Australia and around the world, opera companies didn't really get with the program here, they didn't really see how much value in, in looking at the fact that there was a First Nation soprano who was having a career and there wasn't much interest from the main stage companies. So I formed my own company. For two reasons. The first one mainly was so that the singers who came after me wouldn't have the experience that I'd had of being overlooked. So there would be a company that would promote and produce First Nations stories, and would help to develop and nurture the talent of First Nation singers. And that's how Short Black Opera came about. And that’s how Short Black Opera came about so that I could produce the first opera I ever sang in was Pecan Summer, the one that I wrote. This is a podcast, so you're not seeing the poster behind me as a poster for Pecan Summer. So that was the ninth and the 10th of October 2010. I think that standing on stage, singing in a role that I had created myself as a composer, based on personal family history, really, of the Yorta Yorta people who walked off Cummeragunja
Mission station in 1939. Whilst I could say, Hey, I wish I'd been able to sing those performances of Tosca that would have been so well suited to my voice, I wish I'd had the opportunity to sing all that other repertoire with mainstage companies. But what could equal the opportunity of singing, a work that has so much resonance for not only the Yorta Yorta people and the people who came to that that world premiere, which was on country up there in Mooroopna but for Australians more generally, telling part of our history that was unknown to so many Australians before Pecan Summer brought it to life, what could have been more meaningful than that? Sure, it would have been great to sing all that other lyric soprano in repertoire. But what I've been able to do, or what I needed to do in forming Short Black opera and writing Pecan Summer and more recently, ‘Pawan lifts the sky’ which was a commission for Victorian opera. In fact, that would have been my main stage debut with a company other than my own, snatched away by just four days, in one of the Melbourne lockdowns last year, if I'd had that other career, if the sliding door had gone a different way, if mainstage opera companies had realised that there were first nations voices, I was one of them and seen the value in that then hey, there are a lot of things that I wouldn't have done. I'm really glad of the things that I have been able to contribute to not only First Nations musicians, but Australia more generally,
Chelsea: and what a huge triumph and achievement to make your debut with your own work. I mean, I just think that's incredible, and way cooler than doing something that so many other people have done before. But yeah, not ideal to receive that treatment by the kind of establishment. But what you've been able to do is really, you know, make lemonade and create your own company, can you tell us what it was like establishing short black opera?
Deborah: It was so exciting and it still is, you know, the company is evolving, still. We started out wanting to find who there was out there in First Nations communities that wanted to sing classically. And you know, within a space of just two years, we had 15 company members, who were, more than half of them enrolled in performance, Bachelor of Music Performance degrees, both in Melbourne at the Victorian College of the Arts as it was then and also over in WAPA, in WA at WAPA (West Australian Performing Arts). And we had a really dedicated group of singers who were in the early 30s, who thought that the opportunity to train classically had passed them by and we said, ‘No, it hasn't. Do it now. See how far you can take your career. Even now, even though you're starting later in life. Let's see what can be done’. And that company expanded to, well, we had 30 First Nations singers in our Sydney Opera House production in Pecan Summer which took place, gosh, six years ago now, in 2016, to grow that company to see people dedicate themselves to the kind of rigor that you need to apply to develop a classical voice. To see First Nations people say yeah, it doesn't diminish my identity as a First Nations person to be singing classically, those things are not mutually exclusive. That was such a, such an exciting time. And it's all been about the singers. In fact, I should say that it actually began the company began with a children's choir Dhungala Children's Choir, and I knew I wanted children's choir at the heart of the Pecan Summer story. I think that that was really important to me that we would have a children's chorus in that opera. They hold a lot of the drama all by themselves. It's a large part for the Children's Chorus. Dhungala Children's Choir predates the opera company by a year. But together the children's choir and the adults, Short Black Opera company have just countless performances, great achievements for those who are all you know all those members who are enrolled in Bachelor of Music Performance degrees and graduated people like Shauntai Batzke, Don Christopher ah, you know, singers that have gone on to sing with other companies, mainstage companies, Sarah Prestwick, who's over in the UK right now just graduated from Royal Northern College of Music. I'm really proud of, of these musicians, Zoy Frangos another one. You know, I'm really proud of these singers who dedicated themselves to the development of Short Black Opera. Being foundation members of the company to performances of Pecan summer have gone on to do many things themselves and that's exactly what we wanted to do. The Children's Choir is now in it’s I don't know, like what's the generation? seven years? So we're in the second generation was seems like more than that. We've got a beautiful group up on Yorta Yorta in Shepparton, another beautiful group down Wadda Wurrung country in Geelong. They are a reason for getting up in the morning those kids. In fact the seniors, senior members, and some of the alumni are about to board a plane next week to go to Perth to sing in the next production of Eumarella War Requiem for peace, which will be presented by West Australian Symphony Orchestra and their choruses. So we're really proud that DCC or Dhungala Children's Choir will be heading to Perth for that performance. Along with Don Christopher Gungarri baritone and a very dear friend, Linda Barcan as the Mezzo soprano soloist and myself. It's going to be a big performance and I'm one that I'm so proud DCC will be a part of. But these days I mentioned to you that Short Black Opera is evolving constantly and for the last three years we've been developing a program for instrumentalists going back to my early days of being a Flautist and looking at what we can do to populate our nation's orchestras with instrumentalists and conductors. And so I established Ensemble Dutala in 2020, right in time for the pandemic. And, (laughs) the one day in January program a couple of years before that, which really is designed to bring together all those First Nations orchestral players who want to pursue a career in orchestral music. And last year, we appointed Aaron Wyatt as the artistic director of Ensemble Dutala being a very experienced violist, a composer himself and now conductor. And it's been a really exciting development and evolution of Short Black Opera.
Chelsea: How did you get the confidence to start your own company to start your own organisation? I mean, it's pretty far removed from studying opera and classical music.
Deborah: I've always been a bit of an entrepreneur, I think, when I realised that the kind of opportunities I thought would come my way after studying and having a successful period as a student and going overseas and studying as well, and then coming back and realising that, yeah, I couldn't make these opportunities happen on mainstage, I thought, well, I'm not going to sit idly by I've got stories to tell I've got things to do. So I actually established Short Black Productions. In the early 90s, and short black productions really was where I got to exercise my love of being an entrepreneur. I think actually, probably I began being an entrepreneur in year five so probably 1975 is closer to the to the mark. I had a great year five primary school teacher who, who saw that, you know, I would get my work done pretty quickly and then I would want to do something else. And rather than be bored, she would let me sit and write a play or, or gather props and rehearse a play and put on the said play in the library. Lash a few library tables together for a stage. You never get away with it these days. OH&S S would rule it all out. But back in the day, you know, I had a wonderful primary school teacher, Mrs. O Sullivan was her name and she could see that I had this odd theatrical bent, and she would allow me the time to put on little performances. And that's sort of how I got going. But as I said in the 90s, I formed Short Black productions and in the absence of opportunities from mainstage, I just would put on my own shows my own recitals. And and that's that I really just carried on from there.
Chelsea: Can you tell us a bit more about the one day in January project?
Deborah: Yeah, One Day In January. So I really felt that, as I kind of gained more and more opportunities to compose, and I started to see that really, almost 50% of my time was as a composer. And it's even more than that now, I think I compose more than I than I perform these days and that's okay. But as I was receiving more and more commissions, I was realizing that I wasn't not seeing one single First Nations person in any of our state orchestras, in any ensembles that I was writing for, I thought, Hey, come on, we need to do something about this. And I got to know Aaron Wyatt, and Aaron as a violist. He'd had about 12 years casual work with the West Australian symphony orchestra as a long time to be on the casual list. And I just thought we could do something about this. So I thought, How about how about I bring together anyone I can find that's playing an orchestral instrument that's First Nations. And January seem to be the obvious time and I kind of thought that.. I don't know January is a difficult time. It's such a conflicted time for First Nation Australians every year, we have the same conversation. Should we have Australia Day on January 26. And it's an exhausting, it is exhausting conversation. And I really feel we could find a better date. But anyway, putting that aside, I just thought, well, let's do something on January 25. Let's take back that date that in 1788, the last day of true self-determination for First Nations people on this continent. Let's do something on January 25. That is really uplifting and is a celebration of not only who we were who we are, who we might be, you know? So I knew Allara Briggs Patterson because I'd seen her playing her double bass and Jess Hitchcock, of course, has been in Short Black Opera forever. She plays my daughter in the opera Pecan Summer. And I've known her since her high school days and she was a bassoonist. Can you believe they? I've outed you Jess!
Chelsea: I didn't know that. Wow.
Deborah: Yes Jess Hitchcock. Not only can sing the hell out of any tunes, she's a great singer songwriter, but she can play the bassoon. So Jess, her brother Baden, also violinist, her sister, Xena, violinist. And so the Hitchcock family made up about a third of the first of the first iteration of ensemble detailer. But we came together on January 25. Then I decided the way to attract people is to offer a scholarship. So we put that out there the One Day in January scholarship. From that we found Jackson Wally and Preston, Clifton, cellists, and now we're a group of gosh, I've lost count, I think we've got, we have 11 in the group now. I mean, there's a natural attrition, some people come in and they realise, look, my orchestral playing days are behind me, but it was nice to connect, and they go off and do the other thing that they're expert in. But we've got about 11 players now and, and we offer scholarships to play as young and old. So our youngest scholarship recipients are some beautiful quintet of girls from Guara College in Sydney, associated with St. Andrew's Cathedral School. And those young girls came down to Melbourne last year, four of the five came down to Melbourne. And they had a wonderful time being mentored here by members of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra and also members of Orchestra Victoria. And of course, members of Ensemble Dutala under the leadership of Aaron Wyatt, and myself. And those girls are now just owning it back at school. And they're only in year four and five in primary school. So scholarships to really young players and scholarships to older players who are reconnecting with their instrument, perhaps like me, were really enthusiastic about what they wanted to do in classical music and didn't just didn't get the opportunity somehow so we don't rule anybody out. You know, if you really want to do it, we'll help you get there. That's what Short Black Opera does.
Chelsea: It's an incredible project and must be such an amazing feeling to be able to make that kind of difference in people's lives. And other major work of yours War Requiem for Peace Eumeralla, saw you travel to New Delhi, London, Dublin, Washington, Montreux Beijing. What was that time like for you?
Deborah: I have done a lot of travelling. That's true. And that's I'm very fortunate to have a life that takes me to all those incredible bases you mentioned Montreux. My trip to Montreux was actually a pilgrimage to go and visit the burial place of Dame Joan Sutherland. Wow, she was just such. I don't know, to me, the impact that her career, not just the voice, but her work ethic, and everything. She goes back to Australia and being here for so long. You know, and as I mentioned before, with her husband Bonynge bringing so many great singers and performances here, and the loss, I felt it really deeply in fact, Dame Joan passed away the day after Pecan Summer premiered in 2010, which was such a roller coaster of emotions for me to have the premiere of my first work, to perform in my first opera and the very next day to lose the person who had really sparked all of the inspiration for me early on so, Montreux, that trip was to pay my respects to Dame Joan Sutherland, and to lay some flowers at her grave.
Chelsea: Did you ever meet her?
Deborah: I did meet her on several occasions as a young student, I can never string together a sentence. I was just I was I was all over the place. I was so starstruck by her. I was so fan-girling on her, but she was always really incredibly gracious and generous with her time. And I was very fortunate to have met her several occasions. But much of the other travel that you mentioned there actually is associated with another project called woven song. And the Woven Song Series is what we're about to produce at the Melbourne Recital Centre on the second of November, with some of the most beautiful people and some of the finest musicians you'll ever meet. Members of Melbourne Ensemble who, of course, are all part of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. We've got the principal winds of Orchestra Victoria as well involved. We have members of Plexus Ensemble, very dear friends there. And also Rubik's collective and I should say right up front that of course, one of the founding directors, alongside Kaylie Melville of Rubik's Collective is my darling daughter, Tamara Cola, who will be coming back from London to play in that concert. And you mentioned New Delhi, there will New Delhi was a trip that we made with a Rubik's Collective to give the world premiere of ‘Article 27’, which is one of the series of 10 chamber works actually, ‘article 27’, which featured members of Rubik's collective and wonderful table master Pandit Ashis Sengupta. In Melbourne, on the second of November, we're going to have a local wonderful tabla master Jay Dugbar, who I've worked with before and a number of projects but it will be nice to be back in the Melbourne Recital Centre, Elisabeth Murdoch hall with such wonderful friends. You know, I often say you know, colleagues who are friends, friends who are colleagues, it's such a beautiful community, to belong to the arts community and in Melbourne, I don't know there's a special connectedness and coming back after those pandemic years, we're really, I think we're savouring the opportunities to work together in a very special way now. Other places we've been to with with the woven song project, with Plexus ensemble or collective I should say with Plexus, we premiered ‘My Mother's Country’ in Tokyo a couple of years ago. And, of course, also the premiere of catching breath, which took place in Singapore. And that was with the West Australian Symphony Orchestra String Quartet. Now they're not coming across for November two, but we have wonderful String Quartet provided by members of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. So that piece will be well represented and Stefan Cassomenos at the piano. One and four wonderful soloists or three wonderful soloists and myself, Linda Bach, and Michael Petrocelli and Steven Grant. So I'm going to be really proud to stand alongside those three soloists, and those wonderful musicians on stage and present a selection of the Woven Song pieces for this concert on the second of November.
Chelsea: As a composer, you've often been commissioned to create specific pieces for certain ensembles. How do you approach commissioned composition? What's that process like?
Deborah: Yeah, well, for instance, at the moment, I received a commission from the Australian ballet to write a new work for their 60th anniversary season. I mean, that's a huge honour.
Chelsea: Writing for dance that's, that's really different
Deborah: writing for dance, you know, and that's such an exciting challenge because it's a it's a collaboration between the Australian Dance Theatre and Australian ballet. And so, with this process, I started out by heading off to Adelaide and watching the initial development period of those dancers meeting each other. And that language that language between them developing, because you've got a contemporary dance tradition there and you've got classical ballet tradition. So you have those two great traditions coming together developing a whole new vocabulary. And for me, that's a very happy space. I'm really happy in the dance space. I love the discipline that dancers bring to their, to their practice. And, and for me, it presented a new challenge, I was given free rein over what ensemble I would write for. So I've decided to write for large orchestral forces with a fairly decent percussion section. But I really wanted to bring the full weight of the orchestral sound to this collaboration, the theme behind it is identity. So it's a double bill. And on the other half of that bill isn't, is a composer that I admire greatly. And that's Christopher Gordon. He's such a great colleague and a friend. And so we were two halves of a bill, double bill there. And that's a real honor to be on a double bill with him, quite frankly. And so right now, what I'm doing is, I'm digesting all of the material that I saw created in that first, that initial development period back in late July, and writing my own motifs. And each day, I'll sit down to either mull over an idea or if it's ready to, if it's ready to be written down, I'll sit and I'll write it down. I'll extemporize for hours when possible. At the moment, I don't actually have hours to string together. But I love to sit at the piano and extemporize so that I can find my way into what I'm feeling about the narrative. Sometimes I can't put that into words, sometimes I can. But I can always find a way of putting into music. And my process is to physicalize that through sitting at the piano and playing. So, you know, my first instrument, even before the flute was the piano, and I'm so grateful that I had, you know, six, seven years at the piano, I studied to grade eight. I loved playing piano. In fact, I think the thing that I most wanted to be before I wanted to be a soprano was to be a pianist, I just love the soundscape. The entire sound worlds that you can create at the piano. And even now, that will be the beginning of any composition process for me is to sit down and just play and play. When it's ready to be written down, then I'll start the process of sketching. It’s pencil and manuscript paper, first of all, and then I'll start to layer things in via a software program, I happen to use a Sibelius. But there are others out there. Then comes the process of refining those ideas. Or, actually before that I'll start colouring in, adding orchestral colours. And I think the next step for me with this ballet, which is called The Hum, and it's been choreographed by Daniel Riley, who's the Artistic Director of Australian Dance Theatre, the first Indigenous artistic director of ADT, he's a Wiradjuri man. So I'm going to refine what I'm writing through the process of the second development with him. In fact, I'm going to Adelaide tomorrow to see their latest work just so that I can become even more familiar with those dancers. It's like I'm, I'm writing something that's bespoke for them. And the more I get to know them as individuals, the more bespoke that becomes, actually is bespoke, is that a sort of an absolute? Well anyway, I want to I want this music to relate to these dancers in a really personal way. So getting to know them as an important part of that process.
Chelsea: I just don't really understand how it works with composing for dance, because I often think about choreography to something that's already written. So how are they developing without the music? You know, or are you watching what they come up with? And then responding to that? And once you start putting things, putting pencil to paper, is that kind of going to present a whole range of problems? You're gonna have to keep changing things as it evolves, or do they say, Deborah? We need more bars? We need 16 more bars here, or can you cut this bit down? I mean, what you know, how long is a piece of string like you could be going back and forth with them as they tweak the choreography for years? When do you draw the line in the sand and go, this work is done dance to this?
Deborah: Yeah, the piece is 50 minutes in length. We've decided on seven chapters. And so what I have to work with at the moment are motifs that have been created onto the bodies. So the you know, there are gestures, there is choreography that exists. But I'm going to expand from that with my own narrative. And I think there will be a back and forth. But what I will essentially do is finish the composition, I'm planning to do that by the end of December, and deliver the mp3 files to Daniel so that he can start to in January, decide what needs to be extended, what needs to be shorter, you know, if there are changes to be made, the scoring the parts are due by a certain date, which is not until the beginning of March. So I've got time between, you know, in January and February to further refine the choreography, but I think it's a reciprocal relationship, we've begun these motifs, I'm going to take the narrative, you know, it's the sum of the parts is greater, you know, then the whole, and that's the idea about a collaboration that there are the gestures the dancers have created. They're the ones that Daniel has created onto the dancers, and then there's my response to that. And that helps to tell a larger story.
Chelsea: Do you ever experience writer's block? Or think I've said yes to this project, but maybe I shouldn't have?
Deborah: Well, not until you just said it. Thanks Chelsea! No. You know what, the answer to that is no. But what, what I did learn very early on is that composing is not all about every single day, writing a series of notes onto a page, it's not about that, it's about understanding what is inside you, that you need to that you need to put onto that page, getting to a point where you really can articulate what you understand about the narrative you are trying to share. For me, it's about understanding my own process. So I will brew an idea for months. And people will look at me, you know, and they'll say, have you written anything today, and I'll say, not on a page. But it's all inside me. And what I have to do is get to a point where I understand it sufficiently to then put it on the page. So that's my process, I think every composer is different, you know, I know people who, religiously, or maybe not religiously, but they will make sure they write something every single day, because that's part of the methodology. Mine is to allow that idea to fully form within me to the point where I understand it, because we're talking about something that transcends language even. Music transcends language. So I have to really do some really deep listening to my own thought process, my own emotions, before I can get a really well refined and distilled idea down onto the page. And that can just be sitting with it for months, I like to drive, I like a good drive. And I'll just drive down to the bay and in Melbourne and, and go and sit on the beach, or walk the beach and allow that idea to, to brew a little bit more and then, and then I'll come home and I'll extemporize and then I'll just write it. Sometimes a theme will come to me and I just go and write it straightaway. Sometimes it will take weeks or even months to really present itself. It's about being patient and trusting that the idea is there. And sometimes those ideas are elusive, and you're somewhere and you can't get it down if you try and sing it into your phone. But it's also just trusting that if it's truthful, then it will stay within you somewhere and you just need to once again, allow the space and the time for it to come to the surface.
Chelsea: In 2020, you were the MSO composer in residence. But given the timing of that with the breakout of the pandemic, how did that affect your composing during that time? And what resulted from that commission?
Deborah: Oh, wow, you know what? I was so fortunate that in that year, two really huge things that I needed to present were able to be presented because they were so early in the year. The first one was the Woven Song series. We did three of the works at the Australian tapestry workshop and I should say the woven song series is a partnership with the Australian tapestry workshops because I'm writing pieces of music that respond to tapestries, that in themselves respond to indigenous artworks that are in our embassies around the world. And we performed three of those works at the Australian tapestry workshop on the 14th of February, can you believe 2020, like minutes before the pandemic. And then just shortly after that, my first work as composer in residence for the MSO which was detail a Starfield Sky, which was written as the companion piece to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, that was also able to be performed at the end of February in 2020. So, if it had been a month later, none of it would have happened. I was very fortunate to at least get those things done. But then so much was taken away from us. It would have been the 10th anniversary of Pecan Summer we were all set to do a 10th anniversary production and we were in lockdown, we had to cancel that in fact, Short Black Opera cancelled 95% of everything that you but as a composer in residence for the MSO it didn't stifle my output, I had certain things that I was asked to write and I was still able to write them. It's just they weren't able to be performed until later on.
One of the things that I had the opportunity to write was, well two things firstly, the acknowledgement to country piece that is played before every single performance that MSO gives “Long Time Living Here”. It's a short piece but a significant one is played by a full orchestra sometimes with a singer which is often me or sometimes Shauntai Batzke sometimes it's so more often it's played by a quartet of players on stage and an acknowledgement is read by one of the other members of the orchestra that's always really special to see that take place when I'm in the audience. That was one of the pieces I already mentioned Ensemble Dutala ‘Starfield Sky’, which was for a large Beethoven nine size orchestra and chorus. And ‘Above Knowing’ which is a chamber work part of the Woven Song series, actually, for the for the Melbourne ensemble and member of an ensemble, I'm very happy to say we'll be playing that work on the second of November ahead of coming with me next year to Milan to give the European debut of that work. So exciting times really eventuated out of 2020, even though I have to say it was a brutal year and in the worst was yet to come for me, 2021 somehow was even more brutal.
Chelsea: I found that too.
Deborah: Yeah. Did you? Yeah, so many people I speak to it was like we were cheated or something. We thought, yeah, get through it. But and I think it really is had a lasting impact on me, then I can't fully articulate in conversation, but I've responded to it in music time and time again. You know, I think about the work “Ghostlight” that I wrote for Sydney Symphony, which is, you know, paying homage to all those, our community that basically was locked out of its natural home - theatres and concert hall, recital centres, and the ghost lights that burned in those places. You know, I mentioned before you Eumerall a War Requiem For Peace, heading over there with Dungala children's choir and soloists Linda Bach, and Don Christopher Western Symphony Orchestra have twice reprogramed that work, it was meant to go on in July 2020. Then they reprogrammed it to October 2021. And now we're performing in in September, late September 2022. Like such dedication from that I really got to hand it to them was oh, they really just stayed the course and remained so dedicated to that work. And I'm so grateful to them that they did. But 2020 I don't know, it was a year where I was still able to work, I was able to, as a Professor at Monash University, I did all of my teaching online, but boy that was punishing, not only for the students, but for, you know, a tripled our workload. Hey, first world problems, you know? I was able to work so many of my colleagues were not, so I'm not going to complain about that. But I do have to say that it took a toll on me.
Chelsea: Yeah, we still feel the impact.
Deborah: Yeah, we did. And I think recognising it for ourselves for each other and being there for each other and realising that we were all in the same storm, but not all of us were cruising around in you know, yachts. Some of us were in a dinghy without an oar and it's really important that we realise that for everyone, it was different and just to take care of one another as we emerge from that.
Chelsea: Yeah, I mean, there's been some amazing things that have come out of the timeframe such as you know the word of flexibility with a lot of companies and organisations where that's, you know, brought around more family life and balance for people.
Deborah: You know, that's true, but I think people need to go back into their workplaces. I know there's a hybrid way of working now. But I really, I really want to encourage people to think about going back into the workplace is because there's an inequity in our industry, you know, some of us just can't phone it in. You know, there'll be people in a company who have to be there. And then there are other people who don't have to be there. And I just wonder what that's going to do to society eventually. So even if it's just one or two days a week, I think, like find our way back to going out into the world. Maybe not the way that we were where people were working well beyond their five days a week. Well, beyond you know, what is reasonable? Get that work life balance, as you say, but don't discount the value of actual human contact.
Chelsea: Oh, absolutely.
Deborah: and those little incidental things that can happen together. You know what I mean? Yeah, where the magic happens.
Chelsea: Yeah, the interaction, the human side of it.
Deborah
True. There's very little magic online. I'm sorry.
Chelsea: Yeah, I love that. I think that's a great quote, there's little Magic Online. Yeah, there's a whole lot of junk you’ve got to wade through
Deborah: not this, not this podcast, this is gold
Chelsea: You know, I was speaking to Eliza Hull earlier around, you know, the streaming shows and how great that was for accessibility and inclusivity. And so some of these concepts, and I think some of the conversations that came out of the lockdown pandemic situation in terms of looking at the music industry and going, Yeah, actually, there's a lot of things here that aren't great, you know, the fact that most musicians didn't have any superannuation. So the government said, you can take money out of your super, but most musicians didn’t have any super
Deborah: How dare the government say anything? And thank god, they're gone? How dare they do that and get people to drill down into the superannuation in that way? We're one of the richest countries in the world, How dare they do that? How dare they not support? How dare they take so long to do anything about it? You know, how can they be so self-serving, they should be taken to the Hague, for you know, we were at war with a pandemic, with it with a disease, you know, with a virus. And I think that our previous government will walk criminals in that fight. I really do. How dare they act, or be inactive as, as they were, you know, and our industry was just overlooked. And it's been punished for so long, not just the pandemic, but all the brand is yours and everything before that. So I just feel like you know, if they are relegated now for the next 20 years, good. And but let's make sure whatever government is in power lives up to the promises that they are making. Let's keep let's hold them to those promises.
Chelsea: Changing track a little bit. I'd love to talk to you about your broadcasting with the ABC, which is actually how I first met you because you were doing some co-hosting with Waleed Aly, and I was on the Conversation Hour with you. But for a while you were broadcasting. ABC Classic was Sunday opera. What was that like for you? And did you ever imagine that you would step into radio?
Deborah: It was so exciting. I loved it. I always wanted to do some radio. My first little foray it was terrifying actually. Actually, I was doing drive time. And I had all of about 45 minutes of training. And I had to panel operate for myself. I had to operate all the equipment myself, which was crazy. Somehow I managed it. I can't say oh, I got 100% right. I have to say that over the period of that three-year period. And then for you know, those couple of years in Sunday opera, I just loved it. I was in my element, you know, and I was presenting there live on a Sunday night, I felt like I was being company for people in the way that broadcasters have been company for me. And it was funny because ABC was being there was a renovation going on in the building at that time. And every time I would come to work, I'd have a new route to my studio, you're going to leave some breadcrumbs, so you could find your way out again. Yeah, you know, I just loved it. I really, really loved it and life got busy in other ways and the kind of time that I wanted to devote to the narrative of you know, I would always write stories and make sure that I was listening to those broadcasts before I presented them and in the end time was not my friend but it was great. I really loved it. I do it again in a heartbeat. But I think that's maybe for a time when I'm not quite so you know quite so busy with compositions of my own that I need to write so..
Chelsea: I mean, it's a lot you know, you're managing an arts organisation performing composing, you've got education duties, you know, totally, totally get it. But it's, it's something really beautiful about radio, you know, from being a performer to then being on air, it's a completely different relationship with an audience, you know, and it's so intimate.
Deborah: It's so you are right there in someone's car, in someone's living room, in someone's ears. They're listening, you know, as they go about their business. It's a personal relationship, you know, and the broadcasters who do it really well, and there are loads of them, loads of them on ABC, and you know, other networks as well. But ABC Classic, those people that are really successful at their job, are those who understand that it is a personal relationship, and there is an intimacy to it. And that you are you are just talking to one person at a time, really. And I love that.
Chelsea: Yes so do I. Radio content quotas for Australian music has been a recurring conversation on this podcast, how do you feel about the representation of Australian classical music and opera on local radio? And was it something in the forefront of your mind while you were broadcasting for the ABC?
Deborah: Yeah, there's so much fantastic Australian music, let's just keep presenting it all the time, not just in November, let's have an Australian music month, why shouldn't we? I think there will always be people who are fearful of what they don't know. And really, the only way to get them past that is just to keep presenting it just in the mix. And, you know, of course, there will always be people who only want the things they already know. And we understand where that comes from. But what is our legacy? Here we are in, you know, the 21st century, we have a great tradition of composition, well, we have the oldest tradition of composition of anywhere in the world here on this continent, something really to be celebrated in that. And so what we just need to do as a public, you know, as a national broadcaster, we have a remit, I'm saying we, I don't work there anymore. But ABC has a has a duty of care, to, strengthen or not strengthen, our voice is strong. What we need to do is help people to hear it. And, and I think that that's what ABC does so very well. And 3MBS, I would say, you know, they do a great job. And I think really what it's about is making sure that we tell the stories that accompany you know, we share the narrative that accompanies this new music, because, believe me, you know, back in Beethoven's day, the people in Vienna would have understood what was going on. They knew about Beethoven, they saw him in the street, there would have been a relation of someone who was going to sing in the choir or be in the orchestra and the music came, you know, right at the last minute, and there was corrections. And there'll be a whole story, a narrative around this. And apart from the fact that Beethoven was a genius, okay, before you heard the music, you know, it wasn't a lock. So people would go along, because they were invested in this person, this narrative, this tradition, we have those people, those narratives and those traditions, so let's invest in them. Let's help to strengthen the reception of Australian music by just presenting it in the mix and giving people context. And I think that'll help. That'll always help an audience get there. I do believe that. We've got such great composers, and making sure that music is not just heard once. That's so important, you know, Eumeralla this will be the fourth production of Eumeralla in Western Australia next year. It's coming back to Melbourne, back to Melbourne in October. And so it's now in the in the canon of works, is being repeated. And that's the vision of Sophie Galate. How do we strengthen the connection between audiences and Australian repertoire by making sure that doesn't just have a premiere date, but it has more than that. In terms of the stats? Yeah, we're still not hearing enough of the great compositions by women that are coming forward. We're still not hearing enough of Australian music more generally, but it is at least now heading in the right direction. Well, the only way was up. (laughs)
Chelsea: (laughs) Yeah, I mean, it's still pretty brutal. I think the statistics from APRA AMCOS is only around 10 to 15% of their royalties annually paid to female composers, but you know, like there's a lot of money that's going to APRA across radio, live performance festivals, etc. And it's a very small amount that's going to female composers. But you know, there's there at least there's conversations happening around it now. And there, there is action happening.
Deborah: We don't trust ourselves yet because we don't understand. We don't understand this country's history properly. We don't trust ourselves yet. And within that women are always going to fare worse. But as Australians, we don't trust what our narrative is. Who are we? Now? We've got a king. Who are we? Absolutely no disrespect to Queen Elizabeth the Second, who was an elder of that country and, you know, putting quite aside colonisation, just for one second, okay, that country lost their elder. So I'm respectful around that okay? But do we need a king? No, no, we do not need a king. No one needs a king! Actually, can I just say, I don't, I don't I don't even know if the United Kingdom needs a king. But that will be for them to decide. But we do not need a king. But we don't know who we are. We're still figuring that out. We don't know our history. We can't, we can't figure out who we are until we know our history. I'm trying to do as much about that as I possibly can through music. But there's more work to be done.
Chelsea: Something we talk about quite a bit on this podcast, or has come up quite a lot is around body image. And I'd love to take the opportunity to ask you about body image in opera. I spoke to Ali McGregor about this earlier this year. Because you know, there's a perception that opera is a genre where as a woman, there's not so much pressure to be skinny or look a certain way. Ali said that's completely not true.
Deborah: (laughs) that depends on the artistic director.
Chelsea: And Ali also said how angry she is that so many opera companies are using models in their advertisements instead of cast members. What do you think about that?
Deborah: I'm with Ally 100% 100%!
Chelsea: What's going on? Why are they doing that?
Deborah: Singers have been written out of the story altogether. Yep. It's sickening. It's sickening. And all I can say is its lack of confidence in the fact that the music can tell the story and the singers will tell the story. It's really, do you know what Joan Sutherland wouldn't get a gig in Australia. With our flagship company? She wouldn't have she wouldn't fit the bill. You know? And if she did, she would have been written out of the story. It's just, it's appalling. Do you know, they must be getting close now Australia Opera is going to announce who the new artistic director will be. And I'm happy for you to be the first podcast that knows that, I got close, but it's not going to be me. And even though a lot of people think it is going to be me, it is not going to be me. My bet is it'll be a white male of a certain age. Happy to be proven wrong. But every other artistic director of an opera company in Australia is a white male of a certain age, every one of them. And so what do we get from that? A kind of, you know, diversity? No,
Chelsea: hot models pretending to be singers on the side of trams.
Deborah: Oh my god, I don't know. And Short Black Opera doesn't need to be that. We tell the story as it is. Here's what Australia looks like. And we're amplifying our stories through this wonderful genre of opera, and we don't need to be apologetic for that. Ali is right, and I am with her 100%. I want to know who the singer is. Gone are the days when you could even look it up and see who was seeing
Chelsea: And usually the rehearsal times are pretty ample, there's adequate time to take photos of the actual cost. So don't tell me it's all about, oh, no, well isn't enough time for the pictures. It's like come on you you know, what are you doing? Usually one, two, maybe even three, four or five years in advance that long-lead programming in these spaces. So give me a break. We’ve time to do a photo shoot, you know, you don't need some random models.
Deborah: It's really sickening. It's sickening, and it's lazy. I really think it's lazy. And so very disappointed with the companies that have bought into that notion.
Chelsea: You've done so much in your career to date, what do you still want to achieve?
Deborah: Hmm. Well, the major goal of short black opera at the moment is to see First Nations musicians in our state orchestras and other high-profile instrumental ensembles. And we're on the way to that. I mean, we put Australia's first indigenous conductor on the stage in front of the MSO earlier this year creating history. That was Aaron Wyatt. So I really want to I want to see that through, I committed our company, The next decade of our company to supporting instrumentalists. We continue to support singers, but that's looking after itself. Now, to a certain extent, we'll continue to support our singers but I want to see that happen in my lifetime. I want to in the short term, I want to finish this ballet by the end of December as I've decided that I would do. I want Australia to become a confident, emotionally mature country. That places art at the centre of society where it belongs. I want to continue to contribute to that eventualities because that is the truth of where art belongs. It's not. It's not the handmaiden of anything else. It's not the thing we do in our spare time. It is our means by which we know the world, give meaning to it and understand our belonging, and what on earth, what other reason are we possibly on this earth for, but to understand how we can belong at a deeper level, and that's what the arts does. And without it, we're in a state of confusion, we're limited. We don't understand our belonging, we lack confidence, and therefore we fear. And when we fear, then that gives rise to aggression. And that gives rise to a destructive kind of society. We, you know, dystopian society, we don't want that. We want to move towards what First Nations people had an understanding of the world around them through the arts, giving ourselves a deeper connection to the continent that owns us.
Chelsea: Got one more question for you. What would you like to be remembered for?
Deborah: Hmm, wow. Well, I think it's just that, that I helped to give Australia it's confidence - that I made a contribution to our belonging as a nation.
Chelsea: I love that. Deborah, thank you so much for joining me on the Control podcast.
Deborah: Thank you so much, Chelsea. It's been a real pleasure.
