Episode 01: Thando
Australia’s first lady of R’n’B, Thando, chats to Chelsea about confidence, self-love, her experience with digital streaming shows during COVID isolation and her hopes for a more inclusive music industry.
About Thando:
Zimbabwean born and Melbourne based singer-songwriter, Thando, has been gracing stages around Australia with her electric presence and powerhouse vocals. Heralded as a commanding performer, her ability to tell a story takes her audience on a journey of loving oneself and reflection.
Her 2016 debut EP ‘Digital Love Letters’ paved the road to a slew of festival appearances such as BIGSOUND (2016), Strawberry Fields, Woodford Folk Festival and NYE on The Hill. With her 2018 breakthrough single ‘Numb’, Thando has since gone onto open for Soul crooner Leon Bridges, R&B master Maxwell, and collaborated with Australian Hip Hop greats, REMI and Sampa the Great. The multi-dimensional performer is forging forward to solidify her status as Australia’s newest first lady of R&B.
Podcast credits:
Produced and presented by Chelsea Wilson | Interview editing by Amy Chapman Transcript by Britt Raine
Transcript:
[Chelsea]: Hi, and welcome to control the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women in the music industry who have taken control of their careers and control of their music. This is your host, Chelsea Wilson, and my first guest is Melbourne based vocalist and songwriter Thando. An exceptionally talented and hardworking woman who is known as Australia's first lady of R and B. She was first introduced to mainstream Australia through her time on TV show the voice, but has since forged her own path as an [00:01:00] independent artist producing and releasing her own recordings on her own terms.
She's worked with musicians, such as Sampa The Great and Remi, performed at festivals, such as Big Sound and Strawberry Fields, and has opened for touring artists, including Leon Bridges, Maxwell and Alan Stone. I've been following Thando’s careers since I first heard her music and have always been struck by her gentle and humble nature, and her commanding vocal presence.
Early in the COVID outbreak, she left Melbourne with her daughter and husband to temporarily return to Canberra - the city she first lived in after immigrating to Australia, from Zimbabwe as a child. I really loved my conversation with Thando. We chatted about creativity and isolation, her learnings as a band leader, and her future aspirations.
She also shared her thoughts on confidence and what changes she'd like to see in the Australian music industry. Here's my chat with Thando:
[Music plays]
[Chelsea]: Thando, thanks you so much for joining me on the podcast.
[Thando]: Thanks for having me Chelsea.
[Chelsea]: I’m really keen to chat to you about creativity. And when do you feel your most creative? Do you block out certain times for writing? Do you get ideas all the time?
[Thando]: Ahh, no. Do you know what, like speaking on this, I actually, I thought that us being in lockdown and isolation and having everything canceled would be a really great opportunity to, you know, refine my repertoire or write some new stuff.
And I found it really difficult to be creative. I just, I didn't have any inspiration or any motivation. I was actually feeling kind of dark on music. Um, so it's taken a really long time for me to find that love again. The creativity, I guess, comes from moments of like, especially at those pivotal moments in my life, um, I thought that I'd be most creative in my time, recovering from having had my first child, I thought that I'd be at home just like flowing with all this inspiration cause I've got so much to write about, you know, being a young mom and my love for my kid and all this stuff, but it just hasn't really happened yet *laughs*. And you know, I'll put myself in front of the keys and try to write something, but I, I feel, I don't yet know how to articulate how I'm feeling about being a new mom.
Um, and you know, what, what excitement and inspiration I get from my child. I haven't been able to sort of sit down and yeah, put that into music yet. So yeah, I guess it's really hard to answer that question. I think when it happens, I don't set out to do it. Sometimes I'll be driving somewhere on a car park in a car park or something, and I'm just like humming a melody or something - like I'll turn my voice recorder on and put the like, obviously record that idea. But you know, I might not revisit that idea for six months. Which is actually yeah, by like voice recordings on my phone. Um, there's a lot of nuggets in there actually. So maybe after this podcast, I'll have a listen and see if anything comes from it.
But yeah, it's, I always expected it to be after a big thing in my life, but I think I was wrong
[Chelsea]: I’m the same - I wrote a song in David Jones once, or I got the main idea for it. I just walked around the clothing department, just singing into my phone.
[Thando]: I love that!
[Chelsea]: “I can't forget the song! I've got to get it down. I don't care if the shelf assistants are looking at me!”
[Thando]: How funny is that! You don't imagine, like, you're just like doing your shopping and you just see this woman just like pacing the isles, singing into her phone. I think it’s awesome.
[Chelsea]: *laughs* But I think it's really common. You just get an idea or a seed for a song at really strange times often not when you're sitting in front of the piano.
[Thando]: Exactly. Yeah. I don't know who it was that I was talking to who said that they love people watching. So someone would like go sit in the middle of Bourke street mall and just like, watch people come and go.
And then that's where they'd get a lot of inspiration for their stuff. And I thought that's a really great idea. People watching. I think my problem is I feel my strengths in my songwriting come from my lived experiences. So I don't know how that would help me, but maybe seeing people coming and going could maybe like spark a memory in my subconscious or something. Yeah. Make that creative idea for it. I might do that when things are not so Corona-ish.
[Chelsea]: I've been following your work online and I've been so impressed with your live shows that you've been doing during the lockdown. I think there's so much pressure on, on artists to be able to do that so quickly. And you're one of the very few that I've seen, who've done that really successfully. So huge. Congratulations.
[Thando]: Thank you.
[Chelsea]: Um, it's, it's such a big thing to expect musicians to all of a sudden, be able to be video editors or cinematographers and be able to quickly put together something that translates well in the online context. What's that experience been like for you is doing digital gigs?
[Thando]: Um, look, I panicked because I don't really like the idea of putting myself out there in a way where I can't really control what it's gonna look like *laughs*. Like if it's not a live gig, um, and it's, you know, something that's going out into a medium that will exist forever, um, I really want to be able to present it in the best way possible. I think I was inspired by seeing a lot of my peers do these really just kind of like a home job isolation session type gigs on Instagram live - with like, obviously really doggy sound because no one had figured out that you can run an interface through a program that you can use to upload good quality audio and visual onto your Instagram live stream.
Um, but also there was no way to monetize those, those performances. And I thought, you know, even though we're in the middle of a pandemic, we're in lockdown and you know, people will be paying for their Netflix and their Spotify and everything else. Being artists and being musicians doesn't mean that because we're in the middle of a pandemic and we just want a performance opportunity that we should still be giving our art away for free.
So I thought about. How I would be able to justify monetizing if so many people are jumping on Instagram live to do these shows for free. Um, I appreciate that, you know, there's things like the Isolate festival, which we're doing these streams to raise money for, you know, support act and a few other charities as a charitable thing. Yeah, absolutely. Go for gold. Um, But I saw a lot of these opportunities sort of coming up and being unpaid and it just didn't really feel right to me. So I was still a little bit research of how, um, and what's the best way to go about obviously putting on a good quality stream is, and, you know, I definitely contact full credit.
My accompanist for these isolation gigs, Cristian Barbieri, um, he plays in the CB3; him and his girlfriend Xani invested a lot of time and a lot of money into setting up their home studio to be able to do these really great quality, um, live performances. And Xani did this weekly stream on Twitch. So she, you know, set up the interface and set up the camera and really made it something worth, you know, giving $5 for, for, you know, to watch a whole hour stream. And I think seeing the amount of effort that went into creating a really good quality audio and visual sort of inspired me to be able to put it on as like a “gig” gig, as a show and to promote it properly. And I think it's important for people to be able to, you know, not only retain their livelihoods, but to also continue to respect that music comes at a cost and the creation of that content comes at a cost. And, you know, like I said, just being in the middle of the pandemic doesn't necessarily mean that we should still be doing things for free where we can, we definitely need to get paid. And, um, yeah, it's - a lot of YouTube tutorials were really good for putting stuff together as well.
Um, so if I have the time to when I'm at home, cause I'm, uh, I'm in a different state now, um, isolating with family. Um, so if someone can watch my child for me, I'll definitely do another one from here. And I feel I've got the knowledge now having worked with Cristian and Xani for how to put everything together.
It's just, yeah. A YouTube tutorial and an interface and a good camera is all you need. And it's just, it's troubleshooting, you know, trial and error, just work it out. And then once you've got everything set up, it's a really good way of knowing that you can kind of look after yourself at the other end of this.
[Chelsea]: And how does it feel performing in that digital space versus being on stage?
[Thando]: Oh Chelsea, let me tell you something *laughs*. Um, it's very uncomfortable. Um, very confronting. Um, I think I, as a live performer, I thrive off the energy of the audience. And what for me makes a good show is that interaction with my audience. And, you know, it's a little chatter on the room in between sets and the applause. And like, I can tell that I'm doing a good job if people are responsive to what I'm putting out there. So when you're performing via live stream down the barrel of a computer or like a barrel of a camera lens - it just feels really sterile and really cold and you're kind of performing to no one and it almost feels like a rehearsal.
Um, but you get, you get used to it, you know, especially when you realise or come to accept that this is, this is the new normal, and you just kind of have to get on with it. You find the ways to bring joy to that performance. I think that's what really helped with me performing alongside Cristian, because I think our on-stage interaction was more genuine and it was a lot warmer because we were the only people that we had to vibe off. Um, And I think it actually made for a better performance in the end because that connection definitely, um, got it got strengthened because we didn't have the distraction of audience numbers or, you know, either one of us made a mistake, it would just be like a moment of like, “Ah, that's all right. You know, get it next time”, sort of thing. We weren't too worried about being show perfect for the audience. Um, and then once we got more comfortable performing in front of the camera, um, we put the live chat up on a different screen so we could see people's feedback. Um, so that's a really nice way as well. And you see people sort of interacting amongst each other on the live chat so that's a good way of knowing that you've got a presence of people there.
But, um, you know, I did my first gig back on the weekend to an audience cause I'm in Canberra and Canberra’s like, it's like, COVID never happened. It's really weird. It's like a whole different world. Um, you know, so we had an audience of 24 for each seating.
So we did to two shows, um, that feeling honestly, just, I will never take an audience for granted again, ever! Um, doing streams is great. You know, it's good to have access to that technology and I definitely appreciate having the privilege and the access to this technology to be able to do it, but nothing can compare to singing to a room full of people and yeah, just having them be so engaged. And I think because people have been missing gigs for a really long time, I could have put on a really, just not that great show and they would have loved it, you know, but I think, yeah, you, you, you have to earn your audience over and over again. And, you know, you realise how unfit you are. Like, I wasn't show fit. I think we were about halfway through the first set and I was already like,” Oh, I'm really exhausted. The stage lights are too hot. I can't, you know, I need to just like pace myself” - and just kind of learning how to present yourself on stage again and how to just take in every moment and not overwhelm yourself too soon. It's definitely something that I know that, um, it's still a long way off, um, for Victorians, um, festivals are definitely a really long way off. Like there's just no way, but I think every performance opportunity is one worth putting 120% into because that could be the new normal.
[Chelsea]: It's just so incredible to be able to pick up a whole new skill set that you didn't have before. Um, and I just think it shows how incredibly resilient and versatile musicians are. But you already have to do so much, you know, you write your own material, you know, in terms of, managing your own career, you know, booking your own tours, being your own tour manager, doing your own social media.
[Thando]: Oh my god yeah.
[Chelsea]: And now it’s also this.
[Thando]: When you put it in that context, like it literally - it's that. You know, artists and the brands and the band, like it's, it's a big machine. And I think, um, independent artists, it, you know, depending on how this pandemic has been for you and what you've been able to do with your music during this time, are probably be in a really great position to be empowered on the other end of this. If, yeah, picking up these extra skillsets, like learning how to do graphic design for your online releases that you've done, or yeah. Doing more of your own promo marketing, you can't do face-to-face interviews, setting up a podcast - hello Chelsea - you know, all these things that will just make you a force on the other end of it and knowing how self-sustainable your project can be.
So, you know what standard you're looking for when you're now outsourcing some of that work, you know what I mean? You won’t to settle for whatever comes along. You'll actually be, yeah, super, not militant, but you'll, you'll know what standard your you're going for. And you'll know what the value of your dollar going to this person, doing this work for you, that you could probably do yourself - It would have to be really worth it. Um, that's how I consider it anyway. Um, but yeah, I feel really empowered knowing that I can do stuff for myself now. It's really good.
[Chelsea]: I wanted to ask you about confidence.
[Thando]: Yeah.
[Chelsea]: What you think confidence is - because so often, you know, studies and surveys say that women's lack of confidence, you know, holds us back from participating fully in the music industry.
But you know, you have had so many and have the confidence to be able to go “That's not a skill that I had before and I'm going to just go in there and just do it”. So how do you find that that confidence?
[Thando]: I've never really had to think about it. But if I, when I think about it now, I think I always, I've always considered myself an equal to my male counterparts.
I have not exclusively, but a majority of my, of my career have worked with a lot of men. Um, male booking agents. My own management. My band is made up of males and I think existing in that space that are so male dominated already and just kind of undermines a lot of what women's contributions to those spaces are.
I've never considered myself anything other than an equal to those people. So I've always been quite assertive and people might have in the past called me bitchy for it or difficult to work with for it. But I always look back at those experiences now and I see, well, obviously this is a common misconception whenever a woman is taking a lead role in something like everyone that works in my band works for me. Right - If I'm paying them, there's no reason for me not to consider myself just as much of a leader as what my male counterpart would. Um, you know, I had to make some difficult decisions a couple of years ago and let a band member go. And this band member was like, “Well, did you talk to the rest of the band about it? Like, what do they think?” And I'm like, what they think doesn't matter because this is my band. And if I'm paying you and you're no longer serving your purpose, I'll be letting you go for, so thank you for your contributions and that's the end of it. And I think in that moment, I realised that it was really hard for people to take me seriously. And I kind of changed my approach with the band. Cause I used to just be really like, um, I, I think I valued being nice and being liked above being respected. And it's not that you have to obviously lead with a heavy hand in order to gain respect, but there's going to be some situations that are quite uncomfortable and quite confronting that you just kind of have to be very assertive and be strong in. And, I'll be honest, a lot of the time I'm just kind of, I'm faking it until I make it. Um, I, if I don't know what I'm talking about, I will pretend that I know what I'm talking about and if I need to concede later on, then I'll do so. But in that moment, um, it's really important for my authority to not be undermined and that's in every situation.
Um, I've had that when I've gone to book my own gigs and I've got, you know, venue managers or venue bookers or festival promoters not taking me seriously. And I've really just had to sort of reiterate and I guess over promise, um, to be taken seriously. And then I know that if I do get an opportunity to have that platform, I then have to over-deliver in order to justify having been put on it and just to put people in that place and I'm not going to name names, but there's a few venues that I had to do that around Melbourne with until, um, until people started taking this seriously.
But I get my confidence from not seeing myself as different, you know, and like I’ll be honest, um, it's seeing, and I'm not even saying this to like blow, smoke up your ass Chelsea, honestly. But I think that you are just like the most incredible, resilient, strong, inspiring woman in our industry. And to see you in all your positions, - no honestly - to see you in all the positions that you hold and all that you do. Like I remember - that's such a weird thing - cause I remember when you were lecturing at JMC, I wasn't at JMC, but my partner Henry was, and the way that he would speak about you as this female lecturer who does this and this and this, I was like, “Wow, what a badass”.
But he could never figure out why he didn't really like you. And I realised that it was because you're a woman in a position of power that had a great amount of influence. And I knew that this is the kind of person that I need to be to get, to get that respect. Do you know what I mean? Like I dunno what it was, I think.
And then any interaction that I had with you after that, I was like, “Chelsea, is that bitch - She's getting shit done. Yes. This is what I aspire to”. You know what I mean? I want, I want to be respected the way that I respect you. I want to not only be seen as a singer in Melbourne, you know, I want to be on the board of organizations that help foster positive change. I want to be seen as a community leader. I want to be a mentor. I want young, young women, young, young people in our, in our industry to look up to me the way that I looked up to you and the fact that I'm having this conversation with you on a platform that you are creating for these conversations to happen, it's just a constant affirmation of what I'm working towards.
Does that kinda make sense? The confidence also comes from the women around me that are absolutely killing it, you know? And I'm just. Yeah, I think I'm really lucky to have so many role models around me. And that's what gives me the confidence. I think it definitely would have been more difficult if I didn't have people to look up to, especially in such close proximity and the confidence comes from seeing people do what I want to do.
[Chelsea]: Oh, thanks so much. I'm totally thrown for my next question. I wasn't expecting that . *laughs* You big sweetheart.
Um, so for women that don't feel confident or they think, “I wish I could be like Thando”, “I wish I could do the things that she does”, what would you say to them to, to build that confidence?
[Thando]: I know it's difficult for some people to do, but like literally the number one way is to fake it till you make it, honestly like you have to hold yourself in an air of confidence and self-assuredness that no one can second guess. And the only way people will be able to believe that you're the shit is if you believe you're the shit. You need daily affirmations; you need to tell yourself on a day-to-day basis that you are worth the successes that you see for yourself. You are worth every win that you get. You deserve every win that you get. Um, You also have to be honest with yourself about the amount of effort that you put into achieving the things that you want to achieve and nothing in this world will ever come easy or fall into your lap. And if you're comparing yourself to the next person and you're using that as I guess your, your benchmark for success, you're not really setting yourself up for success because everybody's path to success is different. Yeah. You have to set personal goals for yourself and really believe in yourself. And you've got to be your own cheerleader, you know, especially in a world where people will doubt you and look down upon you and just kind of look for everything that's wrong with you. You've got to be the person that uplifts yourself and loves yourself because yeah - RuPaul says it best. “If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else?”. Right. You can't expect the people to, to, you know, raise you up and to help you and your successes, unless you're willing to do the grunt work yourself. So, yeah, I truly believe in being, being a self-advocate. So, you've got to really fight for yourself.
[Chelsea]: I think we could just have a whole podcast on the learnings of the scriptures of RuPaul.
[Thando]: Definitely *laughs*.
[Chelsea]: Because I feel like I've learnt so many life lessons, you know, you, “Your inner saboteur” all those things he talks about. The inner voice that criticises you, you know, just as you're getting going, you know, and I think artists, we often have that, that inner voice, that inner critic. And, and how do you, how do you get rid of that? How do you move along-?
[Thando]: And how do you push through it?
[Chelsea]: Yeah.
[Thando]: For me personally, like I have that inner saboteur, like hassling me all the time, all the time. Um, it's not something that ever fully goes away. You know, it's just a matter of how I manage it. I think what's a really good exercise for me whenever it starts to rear its ugly head at me, I always try to look back at the things that I have achieved. So I have like my Spotify playlist, I have a split, a playlist called “The Ultimate Thando collection” and it's the collection of all the songs I've ever featured on or written or have released. And I just, will, just listen to myself and I'm like, “Yeah, I did that. That's what I did. Yeah”. Or I'll go on YouTube and I'll look at every video that's been uploaded that has me in it, or just things to, to, to solidify again - sorry to affirm - that I am exactly where I belong, and I definitely am not an imposter.
And imposter syndrome is a real thing that we can suffer from. And, it's just a really great way of keeping those voices at bay.
[Chelsea]: I have an email folder that I put any good feedback in.
[Thando]: Ahh that’s awesome!
[Chelsea]: So, you know, if an artist writes to me and says, “I loved doing that gig, thanks for booking me”. Or, you know, I put that in my good feedback folder or, any good feedback because you have those really, really bad days and you go to that folder and you go, “Oh, I did do something good”.
[Thando]: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, just self, self-love, self-care. If you put that, yeah, something like that, just to uplift yourself and to hype yourself up as part of your self-care routine, it's a really great way of being able to yeah, get over those moments of that self-doubt and yeah.
And, you know what, I like, sometimes these voices that in a saboteur gets to a point where it might get in the way of opportunities that present themselves and you just have to really do what you can to get past it. Um, you know, like I'll see jobs, jobs advertised that like when I first read the job description, I'm like, “Oh, that'd be awesome with that. I'd kill it”. And then if I don't make like, sit down and make the effort to apply for the job in that moment while I'm like, “Yeah, this is going to be great”. But if I think on it too long, that inner saboteur comes out the next day, I'm looking at that job description. And I'm like, “Oh, there's probably someone a lot more qualified than me to do that. So I'm just not going to bother”.
And I just, you just keep going back and forth and you know, if I didn't have that, if I didn't have that saboteur coming out, I probably would have applied for it anyway. So, you know, that self-confidence like - while it is a very real thing and it's definitely helped put me in a lot of the wins and the successes that I have, there is the counterpart to that, which has held me back from all the things.
So it's just a matter of how often I let that saboteur win, and it is a lot of work. Um, and I'm still working at it. Like I'm, I'm not, I'm definitely, haven't nailed it. It's not, I'm not perfect, but I, I can identify it and I know what I need to do to be able to get it under control. So yeah, just to sort of balance out the self-love and awesome empowerment message for like, yeah, that some bad days do happen. And I do miss out on some opportunities, but yeah. I also have to take responsibility for my own mental health. So that's definitely something that I'm aware of and I know what I need to do, and I know that once I have that under control.
[Chelsea]: So, speaking of the wins, you know, often as artists, we're just going from project to project. And I know that, you know, you've been in music theater shows, and then you're putting out another record and then you're touring, and then you're doing more recording. Do you pause to take stock and celebrate the wins?
[Thando]: I never, I never paused. Um, I didn't but, pre, pre COVID. Um, I didn't. And that was because, without being stressed about deadlines or a project or something, um, or planning a tour or being on tour or doing a show, I didn't know who I was. And I think this is why it was really difficult for me. It's also very difficult for me to find time to be creative because I've never actually taken a break. I've never even taken a creative break. Um, to just kind of deconstruct what's going on in my mind and put it into a song. Like I just, I just haven't had that time ever.
Um, I think COVID has really been a great, um, well, it's nothing great about COVID, but, um, as far as being an artist, it's been a really great opportunity to yeah - take stock of everything that I've achieved. Like I said, that, that playlist and just kind of compiling all the wins. Um, I think my former agent at the end of our contract gave me this like poster. It's like A0-size poster with all the shows that I'd played in 2018. And it was like 160 shows or something.
It was ridiculous. And I looked at that poster and I was like, wow. No wonder I was so frigging tired. Like *laughs* I like definitely had burned out at the end of that year, but just like little things like that, that just kind of made me realize, look, I've achieved so much. I think a really important part of having all the successes is being able to celebrate them and not be thinking about the next thing.
I know that that can be difficult if you're working with a team or, yeah. If you have like a label or an agent, or there are these expectations that are set you as the artists at the end of the day, you get to put your foot down and say, I need two or three months to just not worry about a thing. Uh, I'll come back to you. I'm not saying that I'm going to be creating things in this two or three months, but I do need this time for myself to be able to rest and reset, recalibrate, and then get back into it. You know?
Um, COVID for me was really great for that because from like March to June, I didn't do anything but be a mom and enjoy my life and figure out who I am without music. And, all it did was make me really hungry to get music out there again. So in July I released a single and I've got this EP coming out at the end of the year. And I wouldn't have thought that in the middle of a pandemic, I would care to release music - like who needs, who needs new material during a pandemic.
And I just kind of realised, well, it doesn't matter whether people need it or not. This is something that I want to do for me. And if I'm passionate about it and people can use a distraction, if they don't want to hear about the stats every single day, and they just want to think about other things, then I'm happy to be that distraction for them, you know, time off is really important.
And I think I learnt that from Beyonce. Um, she, she had obviously like just gone, like, um, from Destiny's child to solo stuff and had released an album every like two years or something and did like two world tours in the space of four years. And when she got to the end of one of the tours, she had completely burned, burnt out and she was like, this isn't making me happy anymore. And because this is all I've ever known; I don't know what stopping is going to do to me. And I don't know if I'm going to love it, but I'm going to take that risk because I can't fall out of love with the one thing that I, that I love and that I know how to do. So just took some time off and then did this whole doco about it and then had a baby.
And then she had a newfound sense of inspiration and excitement. She was like, wow, I'm going to get back on the road. It's going to be awesome. And it comes back out with like what I considered her Magnum Opus. And I was like, wow, how cool is that? She went away, lived her life and like just became Beyonce, the person, you know. And then comes back guns blazing and just like elevates, you know, and that was just a true testament to the power of self-care and putting yourself first and yeah, putting the needs of others on the back burner and what, whoever those other people are in your life when you're, when you're creating your art, it's really important not to, it's really important, not to forget about yourself in the grand scheme of things. And yeah, like I was always worried because obviously I have this band, it was like six people in my band and, you know, everyone had committed so much time into learning my songs and taking time off their other bands so they could go on tours with me.
And, you know, we went to LA, um, at the end of 2018. And I think that was like at the end of a really big year for us, everyone was really tired, and we couldn't really enjoy ourselves the way that we thought we would, because it was just like work, work, work, work.
We were there for less than a week. Got back and just had just come and gone, like it just passed us by. And I think that was when I decided that I needed to just slow down - actually that's when I got pregnant. So that's what, I think the timing of everything worked out.
[Chelsea]: And so, there's been so many amazing highs and some successes, or what are the biggest challenges being in your career, the hardest parts so far? And how have you overcome them?
[Thando]: Um, I would say the biggest thing for me was entrusting my career and everything to do with my career, and I, not only like the creative aspects, but like the financial and like goal setting and all that stuff and trusting them in one person who was obviously like, obviously very ambitious and, you know, sold me a dream and wasn't really able to back it up.
I think I learned not to put all my eggs in one basket. Um, it's obviously not a criticism to that person because they, they do a great job in their own sense, but it just wasn't a good match for me. I didn't trust my gut. Um, you know, my intuition was telling me to be careful. But I just kind of just went with a thing and very, very quickly lost control is how we did this 150 shows in one year, which was crazy.
I don't understand how I went on three tours, three national tours, like who goes to WA three times in a year on like a small indie budget. Like I just had no money. I ran myself into a lot of debt, um, as a result of a lot of those ventures and I think pulling myself out of it. Um, that was probably the lowest point in my career. Because I had to back pay tens of thousands of dollars in band fees, um, invoices to publicists. And there was a lot that landed back on my plate. Um, and I think, yeah, losing control of everything that I had worked up to and everything looked like it was awesome, um, you know, on the surface, but beneath it, everything was crumbling. Long-term working relationships fell apart as well as a result of, um, all this mismanagement and it just kind of, yeah, it made me realize when we take stock of what was important and I think, yeah, learning how to be an effective leader and how to communicate better with my team, um, and how to sort of set out my expectations properly. My mom had like listened to some audio book by is it Brene Brown? I don't know. Yeah. And she'd said, um, you have to, you have to think about the way that you communicate your expectations to people, because this is probably why things haven't turned out the way that you wanted them to and why, you know, your musicians, aren't happy, aren't satisfied because you just kind of expected them to know what the deal was instead of actually communicating with them - so you should try this, this and this. And after sort of reviewing the way that, yeah, I communicate with people in my team and giving them a flow, giving them the platform to let me know what to air their grievances and sort of parting ways amicably, um, and having a good relationship with them now, um, just taught me a really big lesson about how to sort of let my standards be known.
And, and I guess this is, yeah, this is what comes back into that whole, like, “where does that confidence come from?”. If I, if I see myself as not just a mate and actually as a leader and I treat people with respect and dignity and, you know, a really big one was obviously if I expect people to do a certain thing, I should obviously compensate them the same way, you know?
So that was a really big one for me as well, work out how to make that extra money so that I can achieve my vision the way that I expect it to.
[Chelsea]: It's huge. Yeah. You know, again, it's that, you know, you are the star of the show. You are the front woman; you are the vocalist. You have to carry the music to the audience and connect with that audience.
That's already a massive job, but then behind the scenes, you're expected to also be a leader you’re a boss. To carry that band with that vision that you have and all of the other logistics and have the capital. I mean the skillset of the contemporary artist is just phenomenal.
[Thando]: Yeah. And you know, when people talk about music industry, I see each, each artist is an industry within themselves, because yeah, if you think about, you know, the amount or the level of skillset, you've got to have to be able to successfully run this thing, you know? Um, and I've made so many mistakes that I've learnt from, and I think I take that into every new venture that I go into and I know what I don't want the outcome to be.
And I find that that's a really good way to avoid repeating those mistakes, but yeah, it's all still very much a learning curve. I'm still quite young. So I'm hoping by the time I reach my maturity in this industry, that I would have nailed it. So here's hoping.
[Chelsea]: Post-COVID, what kind of change do you hope to see in the Australian music industry for us to get a more balanced, more intersectional music industry that cares more?
[Thando]: First and foremost, and I think the most attainable, I think, which is just, I feel like it should have happened already - I think that there should be more of a union focus amongst musicians. I think, I mean, it's, it's, it's been a lot of things have been brought to the forefront and us obviously losing all this work. So things like deposits or like for corporate gigs and rates of pay, things like that. I think it's really important if we, as musicians can work together to standardise the industry that we live in.
I think that would be, um, for me a non-negotiable. It's easy enough to do. We just have to get everybody on the same page. Um, longer-term on a bigger scale. I would love to see, um, positions of power that are held within the music industry, um, be held by different people. I think all the same gatekeepers have still been in these positions for a very long time. And, um, you know, the grassroots or the underground scene - I'll call it -, um, is a very clear indicator that, you know, those people are no longer relevant in the way that they think is not reflective of our industry and what people want to hear and what people resonate most with.
And it's basically anyone that's, you know, in a position of power, be able to, um, to consult with, you know, people within the community. Like, so like community elected representatives, like a board or something that represents the interests of all musicians, you know, and yet to be completely intersectional. So, you know, not in the ways of just, you know, having diversity bills on music festivals - cause like, while that's well intentioned, it's kind of now gotten beyond that point. It's like, how are we actively trying to change the landscape to be completely inclusive without it being a token thing, like a tokenising thing? Um, yeah. And that's something that I've always struggled with because I felt a lot of times, um, I've obviously been a diversity bill and, in my sort of personal standing, the only reason I don't have a problem with it is because I, I prioritise that representation and to be an example for the next generations. But I feel as I grow out of that, I want to see my presence translating to a more merit-based programming of a festival lineup that is diverse – I hate the word diverse - but it has to be reflective of our landscape.
And our landscape isn't CIS white men. You know, it's literally everyone else. So those people need to be in higher positions of power. And I think that that's a more long-term thing though, because I feel now people are having that confidence and that yeah, that comfort to be able to stand up and actually talk about these things and to not feel like they're going to get locked out of opportunities for voicing their opinions, because I know that that's been a really big thing. People just kind of stay quiet is they don't want to get shut out. So.
[Chelsea]: The meritocracy thing is, is hard though, because I feel that if your balance and your listening always been skewed, if there's more, you know, men being played on the radio, for example, and the music writers are male and so all the reviews of male work is “Oh, five stars” and for women it's not. Your perspective is already skewed way. So people point towards merit, but, yeah. It's, it's quite a tricky balance, right? If you're, if most people think that men are better at making music in the first place.
[Thando]: Yeah, no, I totally hear that. And this is why I was saying, like, if that's more of like a long-term biggest scale change, cause I obviously don't see a lot of these changes happening immediately after COVID and I can't even sort of scale, like what is an appropriate amount of time for these things to change?
But the unionizing thing, like, I definitely think that that's something that should be happening behind the scenes now, before the music industry reopens, because having been the first industry to fold and we'll probably be the last industry to open up again, once normalcy returns, there is no time better than right now to make those changes.
And I think. I can't lead that though, because I don't know that much. So if anyone listening to this wants to help unionize –
[Chelsea]: Step it up!
[Thando]: Mobilize the troops, *laughs* but yeah, I will not be doing it, but I will definitely support you in any way that you need me to - just putting it out there.
[Chelsea]: Well, we need you, I hope you’re apart of those, those conversations, it is really tricky. Nobody has those specific answers. It’s very complicated, but it’s not impossible, I think, for us to reach a better system that’s fair.
[Thando]: That's it.
[Chelsea]: There’s a lot of work to be done.
[Thando]: So much. But it's also very exciting because I think no matter what, the industry that we get on the other side of COVID, will it be a better one? Time will tell.
[Chelsea]: Well, it’s been such a good time.
[Thando]: Yeah, what a good time – what a pleasure, pleasure speaking to you again Chelsea.
[Chelsea]: So that was my chat with the incredible Thando. I hope you got out of the conversation as much as I did. I honestly can't wait to hear her new record and I'm so excited to see what happens next. For more Thando and to buy her music, please check out the links in the show notes, and please do follow Thando on Instagram and Facebook, and make sure you subscribe to Control to hear future episodes of the podcast.
You've been listening to control. This episode was produced by Chelsea Wilson and edited by Amy Chapman, with support from city of Melbourne's COVID-19 Arts Grants. This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Kulin Nations with respect given to elders past, present and emerging. Until next time be kind. This is Chelsea Wilson signing off.
