Episode 05: Claire Spencer AM

Credits:

Produced and Presented by Chelsea Wilson | Editing by Chelsea Wilson and Amy Chapman | Transcript by Britt Raine

Transcript

[Chelsea]: Welcome to control the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring women in the music industry who have taken control of their music and control of their careers. I'm Chelsea Wilson, your host, and my guest in this episode is a born leader, CEO and visionary.

I was thrilled to chat to Claire Spencer, born and raised in London. Claire has had an unusual journey to arts leadership. She graduated from Cambridge with a Master's in Theology and also became a qualified accountant working for firms and telecommunications groups before immigrating to Australia. She then joined the team at Sydney Opera house, moving her way up to the CEO role. In 2014, Claire relocated to Melbourne becoming CEO of Art Centre, Melbourne.

She has since taken the organization through a major restructure and has spearheaded projects, including the Asia Pacific Triennial of Performing Arts, the Australian Music Vault and the establishment of the Arts Wellbeing Collective; a pioneering program for mental health. Claire is a member of Chief Executive Women, and also an executive of The Pinnacle Foundation.

In January 2020. She was awarded an order of Australia for services to the community and to the performing arts industry. Via our digital podcast studio, during lockdown, we spoke about mental health for artists, inclusivity in the arts and COVID recovery. I also couldn't help but ask her about Kylie Minogue, one of the Art Centre’s patrons, and one of my personal heroes. So here it is. This is my chat with the wonderful Claire Spencer.

[Chelsea]: Claire, Spencer. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. How are you holding up through social isolation?

Claire: Oh look - Hi Chelsea, first of all, thanks for thanks for inviting me. This is really terrific. Um, look, I won't lie. It's, it's pretty tough; seven months we’ve been closed now. Yeah, seven months. I think it might even be seven months today, actually in the middle of March, we closed.

And, um, you know, I think no one really expected for us to be shut this long. You know, when we, when we first announced we were closing, it was like, well, let's close for a month. Cause we were just like “well, we don’t know how long this is going to go on for. We should be right for a month”. And you know, looking back on that now, it seems so naive.

Doesn't it that, you know, here we are in month seven and still know no solid end in sight. So, look we’re ok. We're going okay. It's um, we've taken very much a people led approach during this period with the Art Centre Melbourne team, it’s been tough for them. They've all been, um, you know, working from home since that, since that time.

And we've tried to do as much as we can around wellbeing and keeping people connected and, you know, regular communication at one point there, we were communicating pretty much every day, sometimes twice a day, but I think just keeping people informed and being honest and transparent about what was going on was really, um, was really, really important.

But, um, yeah, I think honestly, it's been very up and down, you know, you have, I think like all of us, you have days when you feel really optimistic and excited. And then other days where you just sort of want to sit under the desk and rock slowly until it, until it's all gone away and, and home lives are complex as well, you know, it's um, and you have all these fascinating insights into people's lives, outside work, and, uh, I've got three, three children and, um, you know, they were all schooling from home for quite, well, the last 10 weeks, they just went back on Monday actually. And, uh, you know, so you'd be in the middle of something and then suddenly a kid would come in with some problem that needs solving. And I think we've all just got very kind of relaxed about, you know, dogs and people's kids and partners and what goes on.

But, um, it's been a deeply human experience. Um, and yeah, lots of, lots of up and down.

[Chelsea]: Do you think it's changed in terms of your leadership? You know, having that kind of more insight, you know, more flexibility in future or working from home and, you know, do you think it'll change management and future?

[Claire]: I think it will. I think absolutely it will. And, um, you know, in lots of, in lots of different ways, I think - I trying to think how best to articulate it - I think because particularly in the early days of, um, the crisis, you know, that sort of mid-March to mid-April, it was so raw and we really didn't know what was going on.

And, um, you know, there's a lot of disappointment. A lot of people were really frightened. Um, Oh, the, the separation of people from the place they love in, in the context of the Art Center, but also their purpose and their, and their colleagues. And I think there was a, there was a rawness in the emotion at that time.

And, you know, as I say to all of my team, you know, “Remember I'm just a person I'm going through this in exactly the same way you are”. And so there was [00:06:00] a lot of vulnerability at that time. And I think, um, you know, once you, once you lead like that, you, you almost can't go, you can't go back, you can't unsee it.

And I think that's actually not a bad thing. You know, it's, it's going to be a hard road out for, for live entertainment. There's no doubt about that. And I'm sure there will be many, - you know - many, many difficult periods ahead of us as we try to, to get through a recovery. But I think coming at it as a deeply human experience through the crisis, but also through recovery, I think it has changed me as a, as a leader.

And I think that change will be, will be permanent.

[Chelsea]: It's such an amazing kind of experience to go through. And there's just been so many different stages, I think for everybody to experience in terms of grieving for the loss of what they imagine 2020 to be, and the sadness and disconnection, but also, you know, the stress on the personal lives - It's just been, you know, quite a wild ride for everybody. I wanted to ask you, you know, in terms of the arts and the Arts Center, you know, what role do you think the arts can play or should play in the recovery of the COVID pandemic?

[Claire]: Oh gosh, that's such a good question. It's such a timely question. As we start to think about recovery. Um, look, I think there's a critical role for the arts to play here and I remind people, um, you know, who don't, who don't work in the sector, so perhaps who aren’t as immersed in it, that there has been such a dependency on arts and artists and creative output through this period. So, thinking of, you know, the books that people have read, all the Netflix they've watched all their live streams they've watched, or the music they've listened to.

Um, without those things - without art - this period would have been so much worse than it has been. And my hope is that through that people will really reflect on what art means to them and, and what, the impact that it has on them. And I think that is a tremendously good thing. I think when you layer on top of that though, what's going to happen in recovery, which, um, hopefully we'll, we'll be able to start soon for the live performance anyway, is that there'll be a, hopefully I sort of a joyous reminder of experiencing live performance together with an audience with others. And I think that's one of the things that makes, um, you know, live performance, such an incredible, um, such an incredible part of our lives is that you're not sitting in isolation as we have been, um, experiencing this. You're actually, you're there. You're in the moment. You're with the artists, you're with the audience who are around you and it's a collective, it's a community experience. And I think that sort of yearning for connection and community and, and experiencing something in the moment. Um, is very, I think that need is very acute.

So, I see, I see the arts as playing a really important role in encouraging people back out of their homes. I think there can, there's a degree of nervousness in the community about coming out. It's, you know, we are a hundred days and locked down in Melbourne this weekend. So, it's, it's been a long time. So, I think, you know, giving people really terrific experiences that they can come back to and, and connect with is, um, is going to be really important over the next few months.

But I think if you take it to the next level, if you go a little bit deeper than that, just that immediate experience, there's all of the benefits that come from, um, the arts, whether it's visual or performing arts around storytelling about understanding others, about empathy, um, you know, putting yourself in someone else's shoes, discussing contemporary issues of the day, as they may be relate to you through a piece of art or a performance; there is a whole layer, I think that happens around art that has really positive impacts on the community, um, on people's own creativity, and, um, you know, the cohesion of society is what I feel, you know, very strongly that, um, the arts brings a lot of that.

And I think, my hope,   is going into this next, into this next period. It will be welcomed that we talk about that and we don't just see the arts as entertainment. We actually see them as a really important opportunity for us to engage deeply in the society that we live in [00:11:00] and contemplate that and, uh, actively, you know, contribute to, to the debate.

And, um, You know, and of course then there's all the, all the other benefits that the arts bring around the economy and activation of the city and so on and so forth. But I'm hoping that it's that sort of intrinsic power of the arts that, that, that people are reminded of as we, as we come out of isolation.

[Chelsea]: How do you think we can steer that conversation to make sure it happened? I was a little bit disturbed with some of the comments our federal government made around government support towards the arts and particularly the film industry, the conversation around quotas for Netflix and Australian content on TV and their response was, well, we don't care about content quotas for Netflix because that doesn't affect Australian jobs, which was entirely incorrect because the whole film industry was in shutdown.

So people have been consuming content at these rapid levels and more than ever before, we're desperate for new content, but how do we ensure that the conversation is happening?

[Claire]: Look, I think there's a little bit of reflection going on at the moment. Certainly, it's something I'm thinking a lot about is why does advocacy around the arts, um, not have the impact that we hope it would have?

And I think, you know, there's something I reflected on, you know, my sort of my own advocacy over the last few years and you know it’s, we're all in a situation that we, we seek a platform for ourselves. So, you know, if you work for a company your advocacy is around that company, if you work for a venue your advocacy is around the venue because none of us are swimming in, in, in money to deliver on our purpose.

So, it tends to, that need to be honest, it tends to shape the conversations that you're having. And when you step back from that and think, well, where is the platform? Where is the industry platform for talking about the benefit of the, of, of the arts, whether it be visual arts, whether it be performing arts, where is that?

Where is that narrative? That if you're a leader in, in, in the arts industry, that's the narrative that you lead with about the benefit of this to the community at large - and it's not, and it's not just about entertainment. It's, it's about, it's about jobs. It's about economic impact, but it's also about those social impacts that we talked about before.

And I don't think we've done that well. Um, so it's certainly something that we're, we're thinking about in our narrative at the Art Centre at the moment is well, how do you - what's our role?  I mean, performing arts, this is our space clearly but what's our role in advocacy for the whole sector, not just for what happens in South Bank, on, in, on South Bank, in Melbourne.

So thinking a lot about that. And also then, um, a little bit shameless I think in talking about the, in talking openly about the impact that the arts has to our audiences, to our donors, to our communities who may not yet be audiences, um, and drawing those connections between art that people do consume on a daily basis, music, literature, and so on and so forth and, and making it clear that these are, these are all one of the same amazing glorious arts industry that we have here in Australia. But if we're not careful, we are going to lose that. And so, I think there is definitely a, um, a duty of all arts leaders to advocate, not just for their own organization, but for the arts as a whole. Um, and that's certainly, um, something I've reflected on a lot over the last few months, and I'm trying to sort of shape into my own leadership practice and conversations that I have.

Um, but yeah, I think, uh, we need to be bolder. We need to be louder, um, and a little bit less, um, you know, over - not overwhelmed, that's not the right word - but a little bit less called it sort of in awe of sport and you know, all of the, all of the, um, action and, and understanding there is around that, um. More people participate in cultural activities than they do in sport, in the, in the country. But I don't think that's well under, I don’t think that's really well understood at all.

[Chelsea]: I wanted to ask you around the economic side of the pandemic, you know, moving forward, how do you think we can ensure this accessibility to the arts and maintain it some sort of balance of affordability, but you know, we need to make sure that our institutions survive and that our artists survive and are still renumerated for their work.

[Claire]: Yeah, look, it's a really complex puzzle, this one. And I think it, it, you know, there is a, an [00:16:00] obvious, um, so that you could come up with and just say, well, you know, if you could only get 300 people in a 2000 seat venue, just charge them more. But that's, that is not in the spirit of the business that we're in - and so it's got to be much more sophisticated than that. Um, and so we're looking at, you know, all sorts of, um, all sorts of methods around how to do that well. And, and I think it will change a lot over time. So while, um, indoor venues are, are seen as, or are, you know, at a higher risk of, um, COVID infection than outdoor, I believe it's, you're, you're 20% less likely to, um, catch COVID in an outdoor environment than you are in an indoor environment. And obviously that's really relevant, um, really relevant for us. So we're. Sort of thinking, well, if it's going to be, if we're going to be operating indoors, then we're likely to have restricted audiences, which changes the economics of, of, of a show obviously, [00:17:00] and impacts, you know, how the creatives are paid and all of that.

So we're thinking in the short term, well let’s look to the outdoors. Um, we're very fortunate that the wonderful Sidney Myer Music Bowl in Melbourne is actually one of our venues. So at the moment, we're looking at that to say, well, maybe we could think differently about that venue over the summer, um, coming in 2021 and shift some of those performances that were historically have been indoors into an outdoor environment, which, you can have more people. So, it shifts the, you know, it shifts the economics. So, I think you've got to you, you, you got to think on your feet and not be, not be reverting only to the way that we used to do things. So how can we innovate? How can we change? How can we respond to the situation as it is right now, right in front of us, but then also, how do we take those innovations into the future? So I think what we'll see in the immediate term is [00:18:00] we'll see, certainly from an Art Center point of view, we'll see more activity outdoors. Um, we'll see, um, we'll see, streaming continue as a, um, as an activity. So we, we created a digital, um, platform back in April. Um, once we were clear that COVID was going to last them more than a month. Um, and you know, we'd been pumping out, uh, pumping out content through that since then and it's had a terrific reach. Um, so the reach is now up above 12 million with active, active engagement, and now approaching 2 million. So it's, you know, there's definitely a demand for that kind of content and it's, and it's helped access and that it's all been free. Um, it's been funded by donors, very generous donors and also by the, um, Victorian Government, which has been terrific.

And so I think there's, you know, what that's demonstrated to us is that there's digital content, good digital content is really important for access. [00:19:00] Um, and so we're anticipating that that will continue what we've got to find for both of those examples I've given you though, is, um, how to make the numbers work.

And I think particularly with the Sidney Myer Music Bowl, uh, we will need government support this year to, to bring that to fruition. So we're talking to both city of Melbourne and the state government at, at the moment about that. But when you dive into the potential activity um, the economic return on it is very strong. Um, so we're sort of positioning it as a, as an investment and a, an activation for, for the city, which will obviously drive a lot of economic activity. It will provide a lot of employment for artists and creative workers. And that will be a metric that we include in everything we do now, well how many jobs does this create and, you know, for just to get, just by way of example, um, a three month season at the Sidney Myer Music Bowl would yield up about 2000 work [00:20:00] opportunities.

Um, so it's, you know, it's really significant, it’s really significant, um, as well as the benefits of, um, you know, bringing, bringing people out of their homes and giving them great content to engage with. So I think it's, it's a matter of, you know, really- coming back to your questions, being think, really thinking on your feet and saying, well, “What are the assets that I have?”, “What are the, what are the objectives that we want to achieve?”. So for us, our assets are a brilliant team and great venues. What are the objectives we want to achieve: We want to bring, um, creatives back into, into, into work and we want to provide extraordinary experiences for, um, Victorians who've been inside for a long time.

So it's trying to shape up a proposition from those known things. And then just being really, um, tenacious and a little bit bloody-minded to sort of bring these things to fruition. So, yeah, there's a lot of, quite a lot of hustling going on at the moment, Chelsea. *Laughs* [00:21:00].

[Chelsea]: How do you think we'll see the pandemic reflected in performing arts over the next few years? Do you think there'll be a lot of works that speak to the experience or do you think we're all going to be peak isolation, fatigue, and don't want to hear about it.

[Claire]: Such a good question. I think it will be a mix. I think, I think it will, um, it there'll be a, a pattern in it. So I think once we get out of isolation, I think there’ll be a, a desire for some celebratory, work. Um, lots, so lots of music and dance. I think, um, artists need time to process what's been happening. So I don't think we'll open on the, you know, the first day back we'll have a piece of theater about isolation. I don't think that will happen, but I think they will come in time.

And I think also there's been a lot of reflection in, in this time and in [00:22:00] isolation about, um, about other factors in our society. So loneliness is, um, is something that I think a lot of artists are really interested in and, um. You know, looking, looking to the US and the UK at the moment, and also to here in Australia, big questions around cultural equity and what that means to a, to a society.

So I think we can continue to expect to see some really solid work coming out around that with some really interesting social commentary and provocations for us to, to debate. So, yeah, I think, um, you know, if we can, if we can give our artists hope that there will be a return to, to live performance. And if we can support them in the creation of new work, I think we're in for a treat over the next few years, as we always are in this country.

I mean, creative talent is something that we are not short of at all.

[Chelsea]: And speaking about creative talent, I know there's been a [00:23:00] lot of conversations recently around reviewing the live performance award rates for artists and around superannuation for artists, which in so many cases, artists aren't paid.

Um, it's a really complicated one to have a conversation around award rates for artists, because we have a market value system and essentially your worth as an artist comes back to how many tickets you can sell - it's not a specific service like plumbing. Um, but how do you think we can ensure that artists are paid fairly for their craft? And how can we tackle this conversation around superannuation and fair treatment for artists?

[Chelsea]: Such a, such a good question. And I think, you know, this period has really highlighted the economic fragility that many artists find themselves in and, you know, the, the, the true definition of, of gig economy. So I think there's definitely, um, there's definitely an appetite to, to, to take that on.

And I think as you know, [00:24:00] leaders in the, in the, in the sector, there are some important. Um, principles from which you refuse to be, um, diverted. So always offer to pay your artists - always - never asked them to perform for free. And if anyone approaches you for a referral to an artist to perform for free, refuse to do it and tell them why you're refusing to do it.

I think, um, you know, all too often we hear stories of, “Oh, well, you know, they I've been asked to do this, but there's no budget”. Well, if there's no budget, then don't approach an artist, you know, don't do the project unless you can afford to do it. Um, so I think you, you know, taking a strong stance on that and some artists, you know, terrifically, um, generous.

So we, um, You know, we've, we've had artists who offered to donate their fees back, um, to, we have a philanthropic fund called the First Call Fund, which artists will often donate fees [00:25:00] back or our arts wellbeing collective, which we run for the mental health of like performance, um, workers that will often receive donations from artists.

But the principle is your work is a value and you will be paid for it. And we've extended that um, now as well too, Non-performance work. So we're running a series of thought leadership groups for one of a better word at the moment about the future of the sector. And, you know, going into that, we were like, we actually need to pay the artist to do this because they’re without work at the moment. They're without income, they're giving us their time. Their time is valuable. Therefore, we must pay for it. And the first, the first, um, the first round we did, we actually didn't realize it until the end. Like we really, we should've paid those artists. So now we're going back and sort of correcting that.

But for future it's, that's now an organizational principle that we've put [00:26:00] in place. And I think there's a - there is a role of leaders in, in that, um, and to do it vocally, to tell people you're doing it and to tell them why you're doing it because artists are often approached to work for nothing. And, um, you know, when you throw it back at people, where “Would you work for nothing?”. If someone asked you if it does make them think. So, I think, um, it's speaking up about those kinds of things in terms of the, the broader question around the economy of live performance it's, it's so complex. And, um, you know, one of the, one of the things we're trying to wrestle with at the moment is with this summer season, that we're planning, we would, what we want to be able to do if we get the funding, um, is to be able to say to artists, “Yes, we are booking you for that time and the same for the production crew, the same for the people who work, you know, they ushers - everyone in [00:27:00] that space to give them that assurance of work”. And if it gets canceled, they still get paid. So we've got a lot of work to do, to think about, “Well, how do we set up the financial structures in the background to support this?” but I think there is a, is there is a growing, there is a growing awareness now, um, with boards with, um, you know, organizations that this is a, this is an acute problem in this sector and it needs clever minds to resolve it. Um, and I think getting an acknowledgement of a problem is often the first step in starting to solve it.

So I'd love to be able to come up with a really clever formula Chelsea and say, “This is what we should do”. Um, we're not there yet. We've um, we've got to work through it to make sure that this industry is equitable and that it is sustainable for the creative workers who work in it. Um, otherwise my concern is people will just throw their hands [00:28:00] up and say, do you know what “This is just too hard” and they'll, they'll leave the sector. And that would be the worst outcome for, for all of us.

[Chelsea]: Touching on wellbeing. Um, mental health for artists and arts workers I think has  been such a long overdue conversation. Um, and I know that you've spoken quite a lot about mental health. Can you tell us a little bit about the arts wellbeing initiative and how you think we can support artists?

[Claire]: Yeah. Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk about this. It's a tough one to talk about. Um, the live performance sector is a difficult industry to work in and, um, some terrific work research that was done by Victoria University and Entertainment Assist back in 2015 really put data around what we all instinctively knew, which is that this is a hard industry.

So we skew above the national averages for mental health indicators, whether it be depression, whether it be [00:29:00] anxiety, um, you know, whether it be suicide ideation it, see. So it's a very sobering rate and back in 2016 was when we were really digesting this starter we um, we had cause to sort of stop and say, well, what are we doing as an employer? You know, we have a thousand people at the art center and then, you know, obviously thousands of more artists cycle through, um, cycle through our facilities every year. And what we realized was that we, we had good support in place for, um, uh, reactive, um, support. So we had, you know, an employee assistance program and all of that and great provisions for leave - but what we hadn't, um, what we didn't have in place was anything that would actually help people not get to that point of crisis in the first place. So we sort of looked away and we said, “Well, we must find this we'll, we'll look around. We'll find a program that, you know, will [00:30:00] support people who work in at the art center and not getting to this point of crisis”.

And, you know, we could, there was a lot of generic, um, material in the market, but nothing that we felt really, we addressed some of the particular challenges that, that, that we face. So, you know, you can't tell someone who works into the editor to have early nights, then spend more time with their family if they're, you know, on a late call or if they're touring, it just, it just doesn't work. So we decided in a moment of, um, extreme clarity. Well, if it doesn't exist, then we must create it.

And that's really where the Arts Wellbeing Collective was born. And initially it started as something just for art center Melbourne, but we looked at the initial sort of framework that was worked up, and we did this, we've worked with psychologists right from the beginning. You know, we're humble arts administrators, not, not, not people who work in this space, but we looked at the first framework and it was like, you know what? This is actually [00:31:00] really good and it's filling a big gap. So we decided that we'd open it up to the rest of the, um, industry.

So I sort of made a few calls and we thought in that first year we'd get maybe, you know, 10, 10, 15 other organizations joining us. And we ended up with 150 organizations on the pilot and it's now over a hundred is over 350 organizations now. Um, so it, it, it tapped a need and has really gone, um, has gone from strength to strength.

I mean, it's been interesting watching, um, that what's happened during coronavirus. And, you know, we were extremely concerned, right from the beginning about the impact that this would have on, um, creative workers, mental health, and, and we were right to be worried that demand for support services has, has really gone through the roof.

So the team, um, at the Art Center who still support the [00:32:00] Arts Wellbeing Collective, we, it’s still it's still run in house. Have just been pumping out resources, training mental health, first aiders, trying to create communities, doing webinars, you know, really just owning, owning the space. And one of the sad, but I think really good things that's come about during or has become really visible during this period is people are very comfortable talking about their mental health and, um, I don't think that would have happened, you know, five years ago.

And I, you know, I would hope that the arts wellbeing collective has had, has had a role to play in that. Um, but it's a good example. I think of what an Art Center should do as well as putting on great performances. It should really think deeply about, well, what is its role in the industry? Um, and, and, and how can it better support that industry in a way that, [00:33:00] um, is, is, is generous and authentic.

And that's certainly what we've, um, what we've set out to try and achieve with the Arts Wellbeing Collective and yeah. That supported that program is now supported by, um, Work Safe Victoria, through their work well program. And also very, yeah, um, generous donors again, who are, who are passionately invested and supportive of the performing arts.

And we ran an emergency appeal at the end of last tax year, actually. Amazing - it's allowed us to accelerate so many of the programs that we, um, we were hoping to deliver under the collective. And they're now actually, um, out in market, you know, 18 months ahead of where we've, when we thought we would be able to get them out.

So it's such a, it's such an important conversation to have. And, um, you know, it's one that we are very committed to. I would hope you know, that in, at some point in the future, we won't need an Arts [00:34:00] Wellbeing Collective that, you know, the, the, the problems with the industry will have, will have resolved and systemic, you know, uh, another part of what we do is we try to think deeply about, well, what are the systemic issues that caused these issues in the first place? And what can we do, um, in terms of industry change to address, address some of those things. So that's the whole thing about payment of artists and creative workers really sits under, under this umbrella as well, because we know that financial insecurity is a big driver. Is one of the big drivers of, um, you know, mental health issues.

So it's the complex web that once you start, digging into, um, there is a lot of work for us to do, uh, across the, uh, across the industry around the world, actually. So this has been a lot of interest in the Arts Wellbeing, Collective in the US we've got membership in the UK, um, and, uh, yeah, it's really, um, no one else is working in this space and I think many more people need to work in this space. [00:35:00]

[Chelsea]: It's so important. I think it's just an incredible initiative and congratulations on the work achieved in that area so far, because it's so meaningful and so important. I really loved what you said about acknowledging where you sit as an organization within that broader industry. Cause I feel like so often that that conversation doesn't happen and that a festival starts, you know, a festival, you know, is, is developing a program that just sort of sits on top of an existing culture without really thinking about, has anybody else this festival, does anybody need it? What is our bigger duty [BH1] beyond just putting on a string of shows? Um, and what's the responsibility [BH2] to the artists because an art center or a venue, it really is just, you know, bricks and mortar without the actual artists creating something inside of that space[BH3] .

So really, you know, what's more important the artist or the, the arts institution, um. Speaking of institutions - I know you formally worked at Sydney opera house, another incredible [BH4] Australian [00:36:00] institution. I mean, The Sydney Opera House, [BH5]  and Art Center, Melbourne. They are physical representations that means so much to so many different people.

What do you think that relationship is between an Art Center or a prestigious kind of venue like that to the city? Which it resides?

[Claire]: Oh, look, it has to, it has to in its context. Um, and you know, it's so interesting having worked in two of our biggest performing arts centers, they're so different. Um, and, and coming to Melbourne was, um, you know, really, really steep learning curve for me.

Getting, you need to understand the city and the community that your art center sits in because that's who you're there to serve. You know, we're very conscious that we're, um, we're, we are, uh, part funded by, um, by the, uh, uh, the Victorian Government - Sorry I'm losing my words there - um, and, and, and with that comes a responsibility and, [00:37:00] um, you know, so we're, I think you've got to, you you've got to deeply, deeply present in your own community. And I think, uh, you know, we were all pretty close us performing arts centers leaders around the country, and we all, we all have very different contexts. And what works, you know, for Louise in Sydney, isn't necessarily going to work here in Melbourne and vice versa.

So you've got a really, um, you know, think deeply about the community that you sit in and the creative community that you sit in as well. So it's been, um, a pretty joyous six years for me at ACM coming to, to learn about Melbourne. And, uh, we, we sold up in New South Wales now, count ourselves firmly as Melburnians, which has, which has been wonderful, but I think you've got to, you've got to think about where your responsibilities lie and with the Performing Art Center is really complicated because you've got your resident companies, you've got those, you know, sort of [00:38:00] big national companies that have those, um, you know, uh, extraordinary artists who work within those and, and very loyal and, um, and passionate supporters and audience members. And you've got to be able to serve them.

But you've also got to be able to embrace the other end of the sector where you've got your small to medium companies working in independent artists. So it's a, and you know, you've got pretty much everything in between as well. So you've got to, you've got to view it as quite like, sort of a complex patchwork quilt, and, and make sure that your, your, your, your team and your facilities are ready to, um, embrace whatever kind of work you know, is coming, is coming onto the stage. But also, that your team is really attuned to the sector that we're in and that we support and that it isn't a one size fits all. Um, they have to be somewhat, [00:39:00] um, chameleons to be able to respond to the needs of a particular company, a particular artist or a particular, um, audience segment that are coming in.

So we spent a lot of time sort of working on, on the, the, the culture actually at Art Center, Melbourne. And what are our values and how do they get expressed - whether it's through the programming we do ourselves, or whether it's through, you know, supporting a major organization when they come in. And, um, yeah, it's an interesting tapestry, I think until you've actually worked inside a performing arts center, they're quite hard to understand.

They're like, um, they like small villages. In terms of, um, just the, you know, the huge variety of skills and, um, and resources that you have, you have to have on, on your team in order to be able to give your performers, whether they be a small company, whether they be a massive company. [00:40:00] Our job is to create a stage and an environment where they can perform at their best.

And there's great joy in that. There's great joy in when it works well, but it is not without its complexities. And, um, I think just consciously being aware of what is our role as an art center and what, um, what can we do that perhaps other venues can't given our scale and given our resources and how do we use that to best effect.

So it’s, I love it, you can, you can probably hear in my voice, I just love the complexity of running art centers. They're, they're, they're joyous places, but they're complex mistresses to have in your life *laughs*.

[Chelsea]: Throughout this podcast series, I'm talking to, you know, women that work in a range of different roles and being a senior leader in Australian arts, um, of course I really wanted to chat to you about women in leadership. It's so extraordinarily difficult for women, um, to become CEOs in any [00:41:00] industry across the world. You know, when you kind of break down those, those statistics. I think the Australian stats show that women represent about 17% of CEOs currently across the country.

What do you think needs to change culturally? Before we can see more women in the top roles?

[Claire]: Yeah. Look, it's, um, It's still a, it's still a real problem. And I'm, uh, I'm part of an organization called Chief Executive Women that does this extraordinary study every year that, um, analyzes those very stats that, that you've just come out with.

And we still, we haven't got it right. We clearly haven't got it right yet. I think there's no silver bullet. I think there's no, um - this is one of those really, really complex problems that requires a very complex solution. But I think, you know, sort of when I, when I reflect on it, I think more, more women on boards - so more women in decision making roles is, is critical. Um, cause other women need to see it. [00:42:00] They need to, they need to see women in positions of leadership to know that they can do it. So, you know, the, their CEO decisions are often made by boards. So let's look to the boards first and, you know, as shareholders or as, um, you know, members of the community, we can, we can exert pressure there. I think there are practical things though, um, you know, childcare is, is a re- such a pressing issue to resolve and affordability of childcare is a, is a huge issue. Um, and I think until we get that sorted, we're going to see, um, women making a choice to leave the workforce, um, because it's just too hard or it's just not economically viable for them to be in it.

Um, I think as employers, we've all got an important role to play, so, supporting women in their return to work, particularly after if [00:43:00] they're, if they're, um, you know, having children I think is critical, um, and, and giving them the flexibility that they want and that they need. And, and there should be no impediment to flex it.

There should be no impediment to flexibility. If you're a senior leader, at all, if there's a, if there's an organizational commitment to make it work - it can work and I've seen it, you know -  I've seen it work and I think shining light, shining a light on those things when they do work is important as well.

So letting women in the organization, in your organization know that flexibility is there, it's available. And it's a conversation often, it's no more than a conversation to get those kinds of things resolved. Um, I've made some personal decisions in my own capacity as a leader, um, to try and, um, encourage other other women.

So I talk openly about my children. I talk openly [00:44:00] about, um, how naughty they can be sometimes, but now about that struggle, that that struggle is real, but that you can, you can overcome it with careful, um, You know, with careful thinking and, and a supportive employer, you absolutely can overcome it. So I, I talk about that a lot.

Um, I've never hidden the fact that I, I have children who I love very much and, um, and you know, they're not grown up children. They're, these are little kids, so we're still in that sort of intensive parenting stage of life, um, and I think the other thing. That many senior women I know, um, do really well in which I've adopted as part of my practice is mentoring.

So mentor other women, mentor women who are coming up through the ranks, practical things like, you know, help them prepare for interview. Um, give them advice on, um, return to work. Don't be, [00:45:00] don't sort of sit in your, you know, in your, in your tower and be remote, actually get down and, and, and help people at the grassroots.

And, you know, I've been really so blessed with some of the extraordinary women I've mentored over the last, over the last few years in particular, it's, it's a joy. It's a joy when you see these women go on to sort of conquer things that perhaps they were a little bit. Um, fearful about, about conquering. And, um, sometimes I think also giving people a really good shove when they, when you think they're ready for something, um, and, and encouraging them to do it and talking them out of this well, I, you know, “There's one point in the position description that I, I don't meet, so I'm not going to apply”. It's like, no. Apply. Um, you know, and I, I was fortunate in, at key points in my career, I had women who I respected very much giving me a good, sharp and saying, no, you're ready. You don't realize, but you're ready. Trust me.

And, [00:46:00] um, you know, I think, I think that's so important to, to, to name it and, um, and yeah, just do what you can to help those who are coming up behind you. And, um, Yeah. So I don't know. That's a long answer to a really complex question. And as I said, I don't think there's one, there's one thing that's going to fix it, but there's lots of things that need to change in order for us to shift that percentage of, of female CEOs.

[Chelsea]: Yeah, I think you're right. I liked the idea of a multi-pronged attack. I'm all about the multi-prong. Um, but I do think that there needs to be changed within organizations within government, but also culturally and socially. And, you know, I just became a new mom, as I was telling you before, I've got a seven-month-old little guy and already I've had comments from family members or even friends about, you know, Oh, well, returning to work, you know? “Well, that's not going to be fair on your baby”. And I kind of think “That's my decision [00:47:00] to make”. And part of being a parent is also financially providing. So, you know, and so many women, you know, the statistics are that so many women are ending up on the poverty line in, you know, when they hit retirement age, because they've had this dip out of the workforce. And if you had this huge dip out of the workforce and then, you know, you returned to work you're at behind, you might not be going for promotions. I mean, I know Cheryl, did you read Cheryl Sandberg's book Lean In - “Lean In”, yeah, I loved it. Yeah. It had a lot of criticism as well.

You know, she's copped a lot of, um, positive and negatives, you know, but one of the things that she talks about is women opting out, you know, before, you know, before they've even had kids, they're already making career decisions based on the future kid that doesn't exist yet, but “I won't go for that job because the hours would be so, so intense”, you know, so I think trying to build into organizations as leaders, uh, [00:48:00] flexibility is a huge help. I really love that you talk publicly about being a mom and a CEO, and I personally find that incredibly inspiring. Um, how, how do you manage your kind of calendar and your priorities so that you still are you - because you know, your mum, CEO, I mean, these are two massive responsibilities. Is there any Clare time - does that exist?

[Claire]: Look, do you know, it's such a good question. And I, you know, I've been thinking, I've been thinking about this one. There, I have a couple of secret weapons. So before I go into time distribution, I have, I am very, very fortunate in that. I have an EA who is brilliant, her name's Sophie Davis - I have to give her a call out - um, Sophie, uh, is deeply aware of my personal situation, so she knows, you know, all the things I need to do. So, she really helps me and tells me when I need to pull back. [00:49:00] So she's very, we have a very robust conversation. And, um, she can sense when I'm starting to, to over-commit and getting stressed.

So she pulls me back down, um, which is great. And I also have an amazing husband who is a very, very hands-on parent. So, um, without those two, I, I really wouldn't be able to sort of make it work to be honest, but, um. In, in terms of your, your question. Yeah, it is hard. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie. And, um, one of the weird benefits of COVID actually is that I've, I have rediscovered a bit of, a bit of self-time, which was, um, had been lacking for quite a while there, honestly, I was a bit, um, you know, strung out with, with work stuff and with the kids. So I've, um, I've rediscovered exercise and in a way that I haven't, since my twenties actually, so I haven't been this fit since I was 20. [00:50:00] So I've been walking a lot. I've been doing a lot of, um, weight training to try and resolve a long long-term back issue that I'd had.

And, um, I did a very radical thing back in June when the, the virus and the lockdown was really starting to get on top of me and that I gave up drinking, which, um, is a very big, is a very big deal. And, um, yeah, I've sort of rediscovered the hours between 5:30 and 7:00 AM, which were out of reach to me before.

Um, so now I've, um, you know, I spend time in the morning reading, I meditate, and exercise and it's been a game changer. So, you know, my, my big challenge coming out of lockdown and going back into, into a live performance context soon, hopefully sooner rather than later is “How do I preserve that?” You know, “How do I get through my first opening [00:51:00] night without the champagne and still wake up at half past five the next morning?” *laughs*.

But so yeah, ask me again in six months how I'm going with up on Chelsea, but it's, uh, I think, I think, um, you know, women are good at this. They can, they can balance, they can juggle. And, um, if you're determined to find, to find time for yourself, I think you can. But I think it's something that is easily missed and easily let go. Um, so certainly one of my COVID learnings has been - Don't let it go, retain your sense of self. Um, you know, I've started writing again and things I've not done for years, you know, and it said joy. I started writing letters again, you know, which is amazing. And, uh, yeah, yeah, no, it's good. It's good.

But, um, it, it does. It's not for the faint hearted. I would, um, I'd be lying if I said it was easy. Um, [00:52:00] you know, and you, you do have days when it's, it's hard and you feel you've let your kids down and you feel you're a bit worked down, but they pass. And, um, you know, I think the important thing is to be able to have open conversations about it in the workplace.

Um, and my, um, I'm very fortunate. I have a very, very supportive board and a very supported, uh, supportive chair of that board. And we will talk about what's going on with the kids, um, regularly, because he recognizes that. So it's, that's an intrinsic part of me and it's not an optional part of me.

You know - I think the other thing just to mention given your own reflections is it's a deeply personal thing. What women decide to do after they've had a child is deeply personal and you know, I've had friends, who've decided to leave the workforce and they have never been happier. They love being a full-time mother.

I adore my children, but [00:53:00] I couldn't wait to get back to work. Um, so I think, you know, it's different courses for different horses, isn't it, we're not all the same. And, um, and listening is important because each person's situation is different. But I think as an employer, um, you have a responsibility to really try and accommodate people's desires and preferences.

And in my experience, you know, if you do that, then. They will be so loyal and so hardworking, um, that it's, it's, it's a joy to watch it unfold. So yeah, more of that.

[Chelsea]: I wanted to talk to you about Me Too, and the Me Too Movement because you, the Me Too Movement happened while you were at Art Center Melbourne.

So you've, you've been in the performing arts in the same institution. Before and after Me Too, how do you think, do you think the arts has changed? Do you think Me Too has made an [00:54:00] impact?

[Claire] I absolutely think it has. And, um, it's interesting because Me Too was happening around the same time that we were starting the Arts Wellbeing Collective.

And there was a lot of discussions around, um, the impact of, um, uh, you know, unsafe work environments and sexual harassment on mental health. So the two things kind of came together very, um, acutely. It was, um, it was, it was shocking actually hearing some of the stories being, being relayed and understanding the impact that it had had on, on, on women.

So, um, you know, again, I think you're, you're faced with a choice. You, you, you either sort of accept the status quo or you say “No, not here and not on my watch”. So we worked, we actually worked with the Human Rights Commission in Victoria, um, on a, [00:55:00] um, on a campaign called “Know the Line”, which was very controversial when we rolled it out at the Art Center, because it's a very, um, visible campaign.

So there's a lot of, um, you know, uh, we had posted, you know, huge posters in lifts about knowing, knowing the line and where the line is and where, how not to step over it. And we had those in lifts that were used by, um, uh, by members of the public, as well as, um, visiting artists and companies and so on and so forth.

And, and people found it very confronting and there were some complaints that it was too confronting. And, and we didn't blink. Actually, we, my view was, “I'm glad it's confronting because this is an issue that needs to be confronted”. Um, we also, um, you know, it became, I think once you see some, once [00:56:00] you sort of hear some of those personal stories and see the impact that they've had, you actually can't unsee it.

And so it made, um, it certainly made me and, um, my, my senior team, much more aware of this as an issue in the workplace. And I think, you know, perhaps as a, um, as an industry, there has been a level of tolerance of it in, in the past historically. Um, and, and I think we now have a responsibility to zero tolerance, so we will, um, and this goes for bullying as well as sexual harassment actually.

And, um, you know, we've had examples where there has been inappropriate, over- really overbearing, um, behavior from very senior people in visiting organizations and we'll just tackle it head on. I, I don't care who it is. It's not here, not in this [00:57:00] workplace. And, and actually when, it's terrifying, like it's utterly terrifying to do it, but, um, it's incredibly empowering because you know that, um, in doing that, you're making a, you're taking a very significant position about, “I don't care who you are, it's not happening here”.

Um, and, and, and your crew see that, and your team see that, and that then empowers them to speak out about what they see. So, you know, I think, I think the industry is, is, is  definitely changed by me too. And I I'd be surprised if you find anyone who thinks it's not, but I think the next step is, well, you know, how do you tackle that head on?

And, um, And make sure that for people who are coming into the industry, now, they never have to experience that they never have to personally experience it and they never have to witness it. And that's what we're, that's what we're trying to create. And there's, [00:58:00] there's lots of advice. Um, you know, and this is why we like to partner with, um, with professionals in, in, in their field.

And this has been no different there's, you know, there's lots of advice about setting up, um, you know, confidential, anonymous reporting, um, mechanisms so that if people don't feel safe, um, reporting something in their immediate context, they've got, a pathway that they can go to and that comes to, you know, just come straight to me and, you know, it's, it's a very, um, there's lots of mechanisms you can use to really, um, firstly demonstrate your main it, which I think for your team and for people who come and work at your, your venues, that's incredibly important that we are, we are serious about this, but then to provide the right support so that people can tackle it. And we bake all of those expectations now into our venue hire agreements - um, they're just part of how we do business and that's very different. [00:59:00] Um, now, and I think the Me Too movement has had a big part to play in, in just getting it out of the closet and, um, and you know, and setting that expectation for, for people who are in positions of leadership to do something about it, to not just agree with it and, you know, move on, but to actually take action to address it.

[Chelsea]: It's been really interesting to see how it's kind of in, you know, the intersections between Me Too, and also the kind of cancel culture and people being so much more vocal about things.

Um, you know, if you have an artist that's touring, that's been accused of something, you know, I know there was a, another venue in Melbourne last year that, that canceled a string of dates. You know, even though that artist might not have been convicted, I mean, it's quite a huge pressure on an institution as well - it's not like you're going to be able to undertake police checks for everybody that performs.

But, um, that's social responsibility, I think, was something that has really been brought to the fore by, by Me Too, and allow [01:00:00] people to have conversations that maybe they felt uncomfortable having before, um, really important, yeah, really, really important and, and overdue. Um, okay *laughs* - Claire, I have one more question for you. Um, one of my favorite Art Centre Melbourne moments ever was the Kylie exhibition, and I know that our Kylie stores, her incredible stage wardrobe at Art Centre Melbourne. I would love to go in there someday. Just amazing. Um, all those tiny, tiny mannequins specially made for Kylie. It was just, I think I came maybe three times. I also came to the fan event of all the Kylie collectors and just had the most amazing time. Um, and I know that Kylie is a Art Centre patron. So I'm wondering, have you met Kylie? Do you get to have a Rosé with Kylie when she comes to Melbourne?

[Claire]: I have met Kylie she's, um, a terrific, obviously a terrific artist, but a wonderful [01:01:00] Melburnian. And, uh, she was, uh, has been a very significant contributor to the Australian Performing Arts Collection, which, uh, is housed and looked after by Arts Centre, Melbourne - there are nearly 700,000 items of performing arts history in that and Kylie's contribution has been really quite astonishing. So I will take you into the archive one day, Chelsea, when we're allowed out of lockdown, um, I’ll show you the golden hot pants, which are, you know, that one of the most, um, extraordinary items in the collection and stored very beautifully and looked after really beautifully by the team at Art Centre Melbourne.

So, um, yeah, she's, she's actually the patrons of the patrons of the Australian Music Vault, which is, uh, located in the theaters building there under the Spire. And that's that opened a couple of years ago now and has been incredibly popular. It tells, uh, the wonderful many, many [01:02:00] wonderful stories of, um, artists from Australian contemporary music and Kylie is obviously is obviously one of them and she's a, she's a wonderful supporter and, and a great, a great ambassador for, um, for the collection and for the Australian music vault. So yeah, she's, she's lovely. And, um, you know, really committed to, to, to the work that we do and the importance of, um, some of those costumes in, in her career, which has been, you know, so, so wonderful.

So yeah, we're very, we're very lucky, um, to have to have that, that part of our collection. And so, you know, many other artists that have very generously donated their archives as well. So I don't know if you're a Nick Cave fan, but we got a significant part of, of his collection as well. Some of which is currently in a wonderful exhibition, uh, over in Denmark, um, called Stranger than Kindness.

And, that I was due to open back in March [01:03:00] and we were due to be going over to, to help open it. And then that got bashed on the head by COVID. So, we haven't actually seen that exhibition yet, but, um, yeah. And Kylie has just released a Rosé, which is going to be, um, stocked in, in the bar at the, at the Art Centre.

Yeah, so we're very excited about that. So, uh, yes, and we still got all those wonderful images of her in the bar of her in, you know, for full flight in performance mode, but she's, she's a wonderful artist and a, and a proud Melburnian. So, yeah, we're lucky. We're lucky to have her, all of us.

[Chelsea]: Thank you so much, Claire, for taking time out to have a chat with me. So appreciated.

[Claire]: Thank you for having me. It's been lovely to chat and, uh, I look forward to welcoming you back physically into Art Centre, Melbourne, as soon as we can.

That was my conversation with Claire Spencer. I have since tried the Kylie Rosé and I can say that it definitely is pretty delicious.

[01:04:00] This podcast is not sponsored by Kylie or Kylie wines, but hey, I'd be open to that conversation.

For more info on Art Center, Melbourne, Pinnacle Foundation and the Arts Wellbeing Collective, please check out the show notes.

You've been listening to the Control Podcast. This episode was produced by Chelsea Wilson, that's me, and edited by Amy Chapman. We support from city of Melbourne's quick response COVID Recovery Grants.

This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Kulin nation with respect paid to elders past, present and emerging. Until next time stay kind. This is Chelsea Wilson signing off.