Ali McGregor
In this special episode of Control, recorded at Melbourne Recital Centre we speak to award-winning multi-talented artist/director Ali McGregor.
Produced by Chelsea Wilson
Co-produced by Linda Catalano
Live audio engineering by Melbourne Recital Centre technical team
Transcript by Natalie Burne
Recorded 11 March 2022
TRANSCRIPT:
Chelsea
Hi and welcome to Control, the podcast where we speak to incredibly inspiring artists, entrepreneurs, game changers and change makers in the music and arts industries.
I’m Chelsea Wilson, your host, and in this episode, recorded in the beautiful primrose potter salon at Melbourne recital centre I’m speaking to award winning soprano, cabaret star, and festival director - Ali McGregor.
A Peter Moores Scholar at The Royal Northern College of Music in the UK, Ali McGregor started her career asr a principal soprano with Opera Australia. After performing in over 25 productions she moved into cabaret developing her own shows and appearing at festivals such as Melbourne International Comedy Festival, Edinburgh Fringe, Perth Fringe Festival, Adelaide Fringe and London’s Wonderground.
She’s since performed as an actress with Sydney Theatre Company, worked with the Sydney symphony orchestra, and appeared at Glastonbury Festival and Carngie Hall.
In 2016 to 2017 Ali was co-Artistic Director for Adelaide Cabaret Festival Alongside Eddie Perfect, returning as sole Artistic Director in 2018.
A Helpmann and Green room award winner she was also nominated for an ARIA for her ABC release ‘Jazzamatazz’.
In this conversation I ask Ali about body image in opera, her thoughts on inclusion in the arts her work as a programmer and much more. Plus, she gives us a special live performance.
This is Ali McGregor in Control.
Ali: What’s this?
Chelsea: It’s you
Ali: What?
Both: Laughter.
Chelsea
Ali McGregor. Welcome to Control. So great to finally get to chat to you. I've really been looking forward to this.
Ali
Sorry I’m still laughing at what that was. Maybe from Love for three oranges?
Chelsea
Yes it is
Ali
I don’t think I was in that scene though
Chelsea
According to iTunes that is you. That is you and it sounds fantastic.
Ali
Oh, Awesome.
Chelsea
Yeah. I wanted to play that because I wanted to start our chat by talking about opera, which has been such a huge part of your life and your career. What attracted you to opera? Was it a genre that always appealed to you as a kid?
Ali
No. And it's funny because I've spent my whole career running away from it, but I always come back to it. I when I was at school, I loved being in school performances in the plays and any musicals they ever did. And I think when I was in, I was singing in the choir, and that was always sort of classically based a lot of hymns and I just always wanted the solos loved a descant. And then I think was probably in year 10. I got a singing teacher, who was a quite well known countertenor Hartley Newman, and I hadn't really sung opera or I’d never seen an opera before. But that was the style of music he was teaching there. And it wasn't until I was in Year 11, that the school I was at had a jazz teacher. And so I hadn't really there was no other option if I want to learn singing, I learnt classically. And, and I did love the discipline of it, I loved being able to find this, this range in my voice that, you know, it sort of expanded what I thought I could do. And then I did start Paul Retki who is an amazing guitarist from Victorian jazz guitarist, started teaching jazz, and I did start singing jazz. And I remember having a conversation with him about when I left school what I was going to do and, and I thought, You know what, I'm just going to I'm going to try and learn and study opera. And then I can kind of once I've got that technique and that knowledge in then I can decide what I want to do. And I never really thought I would go on with it as a career. But then just, you know, things sort of move on from one thing to another. And then I ended up going overseas and teaching in a boarding school and then auditioning for some colleges and got into the royal Melbourne College of Music with a scholarship and as a soprano, and got an amazing teacher there and, and just always loved it. But yes, was always kind of a bit embarrassed about it kind of running away from it, but it's stuck with me and I've stuck with it.
Chelsea
Well, I'm sure you know, it's not the common music for teenagers to be listening to.
Ali
No, certainly not. And I don't and I didn't and still don't really listen to it that much. You know, when I'm just listening to music for me, opera is a live medium very much and I saw my first well the first opera I saw nearly ruined it for me it was like Clemenza di Tito and it was super boring. And I nearly didn't go back. It was Victorian state opera. And then I saw I saw a couple of things. I saw a Madame Butterfly that was at Spoleto Festival. And I think it was a Mike Lee production. And it was incredible to this day, it still is one of the most amazing performances I've ever I've ever seen. And just from a stagecraft point of view it was it was really amazing. But it just sort of got me like, no other medium did. And still to this day, nothing really just hits me and just sort of taps into those sort of deep emotions for me like opera does. I also heard this, quote, Katie Lang, who I love, she was interviewed, and she was talking about singing country and western music. And they asked her why she started, you know, her career at the start was so much Country and Western. And she actually said she loved the really strict rules around country and western music. And she loved the challenge of finding her own voice and her own style within those rules. And I remember hearing that and thinking that's actually I think what I love about opera, I love that there are So many rules and you have to then find your individuality and find your sort of voice within those rules. I think I like parameters to work within. So yeah, so I've sort of stuck with it, run away and come back and run away and come back.
Chelsea
As an art form, it really kicked off during the Renaissance era. And it was hugely popular. But why do you think it's really stood the test of time, and we're still practicing it as an art form today?
Ali
I think because there is nothing like the operatic voice is its own amplifier. And so hearing someone sing, operatically live does something to your brain chemistry, there is something that happens I used to do this little trick when I was with mates in the car, where I'd make them all close their eyes. And I would just sing, you know, a phrase from an aria especially at a certain time a night when their brains were at a certain level of chemistry, it would kind of blow them a little bit because there is nothing like something happens acoustically in your head when you hear that. So I think it's it's sustained because of that, I think because just the natural beauty of the operatic voice. And especially with a live orchestra. I just don't think anything can compare to it. And nowadays, when so much music we hear is manipulated. And is is so far away from the live experience. As you can imagine, there is something incredible about that live operatic voice.
Chelsea
It's just so powerful. Yeah, it's huge. And I think that's what's so appealing about it as well. And also it sounds so human, you know, for want of a better description
Ali
Yeah, there’s a real vulnerability and especially, you know, if you get a really great singing actor, an opera singer who acts very well, isn't too precious about their voice, it can really hit you. There's a great quote that I love as well by W.H Auden because people always ask me, you know, opera’s so fake, it’s so you know, unrealistic, especially people in music theater, and they all think it's so naff, W.H Auden said, opera can not be sensible because people do not sing when they're feeling sensible. And so I think there is this heightened sense. So people sing when they're, you wail when you're really upset. You sing and shout for joy when you're really, really happy. And it's those extremes of emotion, where opera really turns it on. And that's, I think, where opera really shines is in those really in the in the extremities of emotion.
Chelsea
And opera is such a divisive art form. I feel like a lot of people would say that they hate opera and they've never even been to the opera. I feel like a lot of people would really love it, though, if they went.
Ali
Yeah, that's why I started opera burlesque, I think because at the time, the famous Beatle tent was outside the Arts Center and I was performing in the opera was doing Manon. And we would creep into the Spiegel tent. And I saw a lot of people would come out of the opera and just sort of look past the Spiegel tent and think, Oh, that's not for me, that's a bit you know, a bit out there. And then people in the Spiegel tent would look over at the Art Center and be thinking all that hoity toity, I'm not doing that. But I knew that when those two little groups of people kind of met in the middle, they would adore what they found. And so to take the Spiegel tent people, and show them opera but dressed up in a little bit of Burlesque and cabaret. And then also to bring the people over from the Art Center and bring them into a tent and see that intimacy. And that sort of, you know, with no fourth wall and, and it was a really wonderful place where these, these little cultures all sort of got together and realize they actually had a huge amount in common and they love the same things. So there's a lot of bad opera, there's a lot of bad everything, you know, I think you can be turned off any genre of music when you're not introduced to it the right way. And I often say it's kind of important that first opera, you go and see maybe don't start with, you know, Wagner or, you know, an atonal, you know, Burg opera, you know, start with a Mozart or Puccini and just see something that's just sort of classically beautiful, and hopefully you'll be you'll, you'll dig it. You'll dig it. Yeah.
Chelsea
I find it interesting that you've also done some work in the jazz space, because I feel like there's some similarities between opera and jazz, in that it's moved into these kind of prestigious places. And some people feel like that's not a space for me. I need to be intellectual to understand that music or I need to be really wealthy to access that music. Do you think opera has a mistaken identity as an elite upper class genre?
Ali
Well, funnily enough, both jazz and opera started as music for the people. you know, in the same way that jazz do you know, opera started, you know, we didn't have TV didn't have anything, Mozart would write these operas, you'd be in a massive theater it, everyone came to it, you'd eat and drink while you're watching it. People would throw things at the stage, it was kind of debaucherous. But that was what you did on a Friday, Saturday night. I don't know what the nights were going could have been Thursday, like the 90s? I don't know. But, you know, when people went out, they went to the opera. And the same with jazz. That was jazz clubs. So it's kind of funny that they're now seen, you know, maybe one day hip hop will be seen as too elitist. I don't know, or, you know, grime. But yeah, I think it's, that's just a generational thing. And you always think whatever your parents listened to is, is really conservative and boring, and you don't want to listen to it. So I think it's just that generational thing. So, you know, and there's, a lot of the opera audiences are older. And maybe it does take you to have got past, you know, having kids and had all your wild times and get to a place where you have the sort of patience and that, you know, I know, for instance, now that I'm older, I'm so much more open to learning new things than I was in my teens and 20s. And maybe that's what it takes to sort of really get into jazz or get into opera is just being a little bit older, and just having the time not being in such a rush, having time just to really listen and take things in.
Chelsea
It's an interesting point around audience development. It's an extremely expensive genre to produce, right?
Ali
Yeah, can be
Chelsea
and there is a lot of questioning in the arts community around the level of funding for opera, what do you think the future of opera is in Australia?
Ali
I'm actually excited about the future of opera in Australia, if, if it's, if it goes in the direction I think it should, which is investing in new Australian work. That's definitely what I'm interested in, in telling Australian stories, or certainly stories that resonate to bond Australian audiences, and utilizing the wealth of talent that we have in this country, both creatively and performance and technically. I think I get really frustrated when I see opera productions that have obviously spent hundreds of 1000s of dollars on costumes and sets. I love a beautiful costume and the love of beautiful set. But the attention to detail that used to be an opera was at a time when you paid the people who made those costumes, nothing. We now live in a world where thankfully we pay people. So the idea of having this whole team of seamstress wardrobe people making, you know, 300 costumes for one show that then has five performances doesn't make any sense to me. You know, you're doing short runs. I think there is a way of still finding glamour and a sense of quality on stage without spending all that money. Because I think what happens is that comes at the expense of paying your artists or, or we can't afford to put this show on Well, there is ways I think of making things not on a shoestring Exactly. But slightly more sensible, budget wise, we do absolutely need funding, but I also think we really need to invest in Australian talent. So many Australian singers, the really good ones go overseas, what I don't understand is why companies will spend a lot of money to bring over an international that no one's heard of. And they won't bring over an Australian who's doing really well, in Germany or something. It doesn't make any sense to me. I know a lot of singers who are working overseas, we can't get a job here in Australia. And I think that needs to change and look we’re at a real juncture the artistic director of Australia and Victorian opera, have just announced their retirements. Hopefully the boards of those companies will, you know, get new artistic directors who really want to look at that future and really want to invest in the industry in Australia. So I think it's a really exciting time. I think we're gonna get there. And you know, when we did, Lorelei, it was incredible the amount of new audience we got, who wouldn't usually go to an opera, and we were talking about, you know, the week we did Lorelei, in Queensland, was the week that everything kicked off with Brittany Higgins and Grace Tame made her press club speech. And there's a line in her speech. That was something about shoulders back and tell our story. There's a line in Lorelei that was shoulders back and persevere tell our story loud and clear. It was so sort of in the zeitgeist. And I think if we can make work that is in the zeitgeist, and this is having the conversations that we are having in, in bars and in homes, then I think opera can be relevant again, and people will get to see that beauty. And it won't be this old, behemoth old, you know, elitist thing anymore,
Chelsea
Do you think there's an opportunity to look at things such as quotas in terms of casting for Australian based productions that receive funding? I know, that's definitely been a conversation in the contemporary sector, and also in music theater around, you should have local support acts for big touring shows, and things like that. I mean, who is looking after opera performance in that kind of advocacy space?
Ali
it's a really big discussion to have. It's not, you know, we're not actually in the same space, equity wise as music theater actors. And I see casting going on in opera companies that would just wouldn't, no one would stand for it in a music theater stage or on a theater stage. And I don't understand why it's been accepted on opera stages. Look, I'm all for bringing an international artist out here. I've, you know, when I was at opera Australia, I got to work with some conductors and some singers that lifted us as a company lifted us, you know, we got to see a world class artist sing and it was incredible. And the whole cast lifted as a result. I don't think we should say no international singers anymore. But I think there has to be a balance. I also think we should be casting for the singers we have, you know, as opposed to saying, we're going to do this opera, and there's no one in the country who can sing it. Why are we doing that opera right now, you know, there's a whole bunch of other operas where we could, we could be putting those operas on and using these incredible singers that we have here in Australia. And again, I'm not saying we should never do Wagner. And we should never do this or that. But there's a balance, I think that we can find, between the two. I think we should be looking at the incredible talent we have and putting shows on stage that celebrate that talent.
Chelsea
There's been a lot of conversations in the last few years around a call for a feminist reboot of opera. A lot of productions feature gendered violence. And there's examples of female characters that are abused or murdered heroines sacrificing themselves for men and lots of female villains. And there's been a lack of opportunity for female composers to produce and create work in the field, which isn't exclusive to opera, of course, because it's been across the board and in the music industry. And there's a lot of commentary around stereotypes of culture. But I understand there's a lot of traditionalists that love opera that believe in the works being replicated exactly as per the original score and disagree with modernizing themes. How do you think we can ensure that the genre grows new audiences and evolves socially while still honoring the tradition of the art form?
Ali
I think, like with so many of these arguments that have been had at the moment about, you know, wokeness, or the there is a way in the middle, it doesn't, you know, doesn't have to be one or the other. And I think we've certainly with cultural appropriation and with, you know, gendered violence in opera, I have seen some incredible productions where they can still keep the classic nature of that piece, while being very conscious of, of the cultural appropriation of the gendered violence if they're showing that violence, you know, violence does happen a lot to women. So it's not like we have to pretend that doesn't happen. But I think there is a way in really great directors and I thought Sarah Giles, who directed Lorelei and she's currently in the in pre production for La Traviata for opera Queensland, and La Traviata. You know, Violetta was a courtesan. There's lots of things in that piece that in old productions, you just you wouldn't want to see on stage now it would feel really weird, but she's looking at that from a feminist point of view. And, you know, I'm, I'm researching a piece about the little Lon area of Melbourne and the female owned brothels. And I think it's that looking at sex work is a really interesting conversation to have at the moment and looking at the fact that it is work and you know, taking away that stigma. And so she you know, is looking at La Traviata, from that point of view and instead of glamorizing Violetta who is essentially you know, a sex worker, you know, to actually to, to look at that and I don't think you need to change that much to be able to just have those conversations in an intelligent and contemporary way. And the same thing goes with, you know, cultural appropriation look, there's a lot of pieces that Puccini was very sort of obsessed almost with exoticism. And he never actually really went to Asia but but wrote a lot of pieces that were based in what was then called an oriental landscape. And there was recently a complaint made about cultural appropriation in a production of Turandot, I think, in opera Australia. And look, it's it's an interesting conversation, it was a shame that they had that conversation directly with the newspaper and not with the opera company and had an intelligent conversation about it. But look, I think with the right, director and the right artistic directors, we can we don't have to throw out all these pieces. I think we can, I think it's a really great opportunity, actually, to look at it and have the conversations in a different way. You know, Lorelai was, that's what we wrote that piece about really was sort of sick of the fact that we were always playing the same really tired cliched roles. And that's another reason why I think it's fantastic if we really invest in new work, because we can start to create really interesting three dimensional characters for women in opera and also obviously bringing in female creatives. And I've been doing a piece at the moment with opera Queensland, that Kate Miller Heidke’s written the libretto for. And that is a story of a, based on a real story of a woman from a podcast I heard, who was sort of coming off drugs, had a small baby, she realizes through a phone call that actually she has been involved in relationship with domestic violence and how she's going to get herself out of that. And again, this is it's a it to me, it just immediately said, this is an opera this these are these are feelings that are operatic feelings that can be expressed with the operatic voice. But it's a conversation, you know, and she actually is it's, she gets herself out of that there is hope at the end of it. And it's not glamorizing that kind of tragic, heroine, you know, in both ways of that word. But yeah, I think, again, I actually am excited about those constraints. Because I think that gives us space to have really interesting conversations and find new ways of telling those old stories.
Chelsea
I think so too, and even in more mainstream art, like Disney, you know, they've recently been putting all those disclaimers in front of all of the Disney Kids animated films around cultural appropriation and depictions of different people and, and the Disney Princesses that have kind of, you know, copped a lot of criticism around gender depictions and that sort of stuff. And there's been great conversations, and now you're seeing these new Disney Princesses that are, you know, really strong or have these more kind of, you know, multifaceted characters, they're no longer just running around waiting to be kissed.
Ali
Totally and so because we had that conversation about all those old Disney princesses. That's why we got Moana. And that's why, you know, we've got the family madrigal. And, you know, I don't think that was a bad thing. And I think in the same way we can, but you know, you can still watch Little Mermaid, I think, but if the kids are having conversation about the problematic elements of the Little Mermaid, that's great. That's a conversation that's good to have. So I think the same thing can be done in opera, we can, you know, it actually gives us space to have those, those conversations. And, you know, I look back, I, there's only one opera I did that was ever put on TV or filmed. And it was trial by jury that I did with opera Australia. And I've watched that recently, I found it on YouTube. And it's it just would never get put on stage today. It like it did. It was just, it's not that long ago, but I just looked at it. And it was just awful. It's about a sort of a divorce case. And I played the divorcee. And at one point, the man who's divorcing his, I fall over and he starts kicking me on the ground, and then I ended up getting away with it because I start sitting on the knee of the old creepy judge, and it's the whole thing is so mind bogglingly bad, you know, but I then look at it. I thought afterwards, could you do that again now? And I thought, yeah, you could, but you have to work really hard to to present that so that people are like, seeing what it is but still enjoying it. I think there is still a way of doing that. Gilbert and Sullivan is particularly problematic, but I you know, I have an idea of how I want to do the Mikado. I still think you can find great things. You just have to work a little hard and look, you know, that's all this sort of wokeness people complain about. So it just means you have to work a little bit harder that's all. You just have to think is this what I'm doing offending someone. It's just a little bit more work. It's not the end of the world.
Chelsea
When we think about the canon of classical music and the great operatic works and composers, and you read those lists, the top composers the top works, it's largely a European mono culture and very male dominated. Do you think things are changing and there are more opportunities? I know you mentioned the piece you're working on with Kate Miller Heike. Are you seeing that more globally that there's more opportunities for women and diverse range of people to be able to make new works?
Ali
Yeah, I do. Look, everyone. People have diversity quotas. Now people are really conscious of diversifying their creative table, whether that be performers or writers, composers. And I think that's a really good thing. It's it's opening up a lot of doors for a lot of people who's you know, were just facing a very solidly closed door before. But you know, it's interesting because, yes, it was very male dominated. But for instance, the piece that I'm rehearsing at the moment with Victorian opera, The Happy End, I'd always known that piece has been by Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht, they wrote Threepenny opera, Mahogany. But I've since realized while doing this, that it was actually written by Elizabeth Hauptmann. She was Bertolt Brecht’s secretary. Turns out she wrote the bulk of Threepenny, she was an uncredited writer on Mahagonny. And she wrote the entire script of The Happy End. But she was sort of cast aside by Bertolt Brecht who just wrote her off as his secretary, she did the full translation of the Beggar's Opera, which become became Threepenny opera. She had a huge influence on these works, but we never knew about her. So I think even you know, if you dug a little deeper below the surface of even the operatic canon, there's probably a lot of women who had a lot of input into it as well. So I don't think women are just getting a chance now they're just actually being, you know, given the credit for the work, they're doing a bit more now. It's, it's, you know, not perfect by any means. But yeah, it's not like women have just found out they had this talent to do things, and they never had it before. They just were sort of swept under the carpet and, you know, swept aside. So it's been really interesting. And the piece I'm doing, knowing that it's changed the way I've seen everything, I play a gang boss. So it's a female gang boss, the Salvation Army is run by a female major. And the female protagonist, Lily in it is a really strong, fierce woman who stands up for her principles, and always does what she thinks best and faces danger. It's a, it's quite a feminist piece. And I don't think anyone has ever looked at it in that light before. But when you realize that there was a woman behind the writing of it, you look at it differently, and it opens things up. And so I think when you go back to a lot of that operatic canon, and you don't necessarily have to find out if there was a woman who wrote it, but I do think you can, you can find the female strength within a lot of those stories that have just been ignored before.
Chelsea
I think it's really common, you know, across all different art forms, just the invisibility of the creative contributions of female, gender diverse people within different productions. You know, even in contemporary music, you know, you look at records that Etta James is putting out in the 50s. And she wasn't credited as a writer on most of them, but she was, she was told don't put your name on there, then you can avoid paying some taxes. She thought fantastic. And so her name wasn't credited for so many songs that went on to make heaps of money for other people.
Ali
You look at all the authors, George Sand all these authors who would just, you know, gave themselves I mean, look, even JK Rowling gave herself that name. Just because, you know, you don't want to have a lady's name on a book, it won't sell as many copies. So it's, yeah, it's a really common thing for, for for women to feel they have to sort of hide who they are or hide their contribution. But, you know, thankfully, I do think that's changing, which is, which is great.
Chelsea
Can we talk about body image in opera, it seems to be the one genre of music, where the pressure to be skinny for women is not as prevalent.
Ali
It's absolutely not true. It's actually I think it's it's everywhere, and it's absolutely in opera. I think there's this sense that people say, you know, it's not over til the fat lady sings where you've got this sense of these, you know, Valkyrie that are big, but you look at someone like Joan Sutherland, she was in no way fat, but to make the sound she made. She had the most extraordinary lung capacity, the most extraordinary torso. A lot of the women you know, Lisa Gastein, was a singer I sang with very early on, and she was she is a big woman, but in no way is She fat she is. She has big bone structure and and so I think this this idea that you know, these opera singers a fat is just kind of not true. In opera like in life there are people of all different shapes and sizes. And the thing I have annoyingly is, there's actually a lot of body image pressure in opera. You know, when I first started with opera Australia I was, you know, the young soprano. I soon realized that that young soprano to play all those young pretty little I used to call them pho naive peasant girl sluts. All the enas and the etas. They wanted this nice little pretty little soprano. And once you get older and what have you, they you know, they sort of get the next lot of young pretty Sopranos. When I was at university, auditioning for the scholarship that I ended up getting, which was a philanthropic scholarship. He used to get all the singers all the female singers anyway, to the, he, they put a table with the glasses of water. I remember at the time, they kept saying, Do you want a glass of water I was like, No, I’m fine. And then after a while, I was like, Oh, I must sound dry. I'll get a glass of water. He did it apparently, because he thought that women could quite often hide how big they were from the front, he wanted to see how big their ass was when they went and got a glass of water. He didn’t want fat opera singers on he's only didn't give money to fat opera singers. And it was a really shocking thing to hear that and, and that I've never forgotten that happening. But what I really have a bee in the bonnet about at the moment is opera companies, quite often not all of them, but most use models to advertise their operas. So if you look at, if you look at, you know, trams going past, sometimes you'll see Madame Butterfly, that's not the person who's singing Madame Butterfly, that is a model. And it infuriates me, because it's sort of like a week, so disgusting that you you won't use us in your marketing. And, you know, I recently saw an opera company do a post for International Women's Day. And they had a whole bunch of the women that and you know, they are using women to advertise their operas, and they're trying to highlight strong female roles. But I think all but one of them were models were young models. They weren't the opera singers that were going to be singing in that opera. And I find it infuriating, because I actually would love us to celebrate the diversity of shapes and sizes of all singers. And again, I think that should be happening in life. You know, I'm so sick of just seeing this one sort of Normcore version of what we're meant to be. And I feel like opera is the last place where you know, there is this sense, yes, that people think, Oh, you can you're allowed to be a bigger opera singer. Quite often, as I said, opera singers who are a bit bigger and not maybe tiny. It's it's all lung capacity, it's that, you know, they have to be big, strong, they have to hold an entire amplifier within their torso. So, yeah, I actually think it's a really important discussion to have, actually.
Chelsea
I think it's similar. You know, going back to your point earlier around being an elite athlete. I mean, we see Olympic rowers are often very tall, you need the stretch, you know, the different physicalities for the different sports, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Do you think the same pressure is there for male artists within opera? Because I've heard that there's more leniency around how heavy men can get because it's harder to cast them for certain roles?
Ali
There is? Yeah, look, there is. But there's also, you know, I think there's body image on both sides. It's not just a female problem. And, you know, I know that there are certain men who were had great physiques, traditionally hot physics, I guess, if you will, who every director I ever worked with, got them to have their shirt off sometime in the opera. And I think they're, you know, suffering from this issue just as much as the women are, in some ways, you know, just being I think, just this sense that we have to stop thinking that there's this just one ideal of sexy, you know, we all have thought, I mean, I've watched singers on stage, and just thought they were the sexiest things I've ever seen. It's got nothing to do with their physique. It's to do with what they can do. And I think we just have to start looking at what bodies can do, and not what they look like. And if we focus on what they can do, what our own bodies can do, instead of what it looks like. I think we'll be all in a much better place mentally, but also we'll just have a much more fulfilling world to be able to have this diversity of shape and size. But I do think, you know, my experience is from a female perspective, so I focus on that, but I do think men deal with it a little bit as well. But yeah, it's it's, I think every industry has it, but it is absolutely still in opera.
Chelsea
Do you think it's something that the artists can push back more on? You know, I know, with actors, they're getting a lot, you know, in the film world a lot stronger about that kind of how I want to be depicted. You know, is that something when you sign a contract for a particular production, that you say, Yes, I'm going to be in the production, but you have to use me.
Ali
There, there are not many opera singers in this country who have any agency whatsoever. The only reason why I'm even feel confident enough to talk about this with you here is because I'm no longer vying for jobs in that operatic world. There is so little work for opera artists in this country, you do not complain, because you want to get work. And when the national company does something that you think is is, you know, I know, people who have complained and written articles in Limelight about it, and then never, never got work with that company again. Look, you know, he can't say definitely if it was because they've spoken up, but people are scared to speak up about these sort of issues, because they want to get work and opera, is there's just a really small amount of work in this country for for opera singers. So people don't complain.
Chelsea
Yeah, and a small amount of space for arts and local music in any of our media outlets as well. You know, which is why even though that report came out a few years ago by Chrissy Vincent, which revealed that commercial radio in Australia isn't adhering to the minimum Australian quotas, it was very, very difficult to get any musicians to really speak out about that.
Ali
Absolutely. Because people want work and you don't want to burn your bridges in this country. You know, you don't want to be ostracized. But I think if we do band together and start pushing back and start asking those questions and having those conversations and look, you know, for me, it's when opera companies post those pictures, I just put a nice little comment under their Instagram post going, this is fantastic. Can't wait to see the show. But gosh, I wish we could see a photo of the opera singer who's in this production instead of a model. You know, I think we just have to ask those questions. And, you know, money talks, if people think it's going to affect their ticket sales, they'll change you know, there's a reason why coon cheese changed its name to cheer, because wasn't necessarily that they, you know, they started having some moral thought is because they're not going to sell as much cheese. You know, I think you have to have, we have to as consumers start demanding more of the companies who are giving us these products. We have to, we have to demand more.
Chelsea
You mentioned the operatic voice and being a singer myself, I couldn't not ask you some questions around the vocal mechanics because I'm just so fascinated about that classic operatic sound. My very limited understanding is around a kind of open throat technique where it's lowering the larynx raising soft palate. It's very technical. How do you get into that type of voice? And how do you change your vocal approach when you're switching between that operatic voice as well as your contemporary jazz kind of stylings, and when you sing cabaret?
Ali
Look I think the reason why I've been able to do that is because I'm, I don't think that much about my technique, probably not enough and it's probably why, you know, my operatic career, There are a lot of better singers than me is what I'm trying to say operatically, and I never did, although I did learn classically and with fantastic teachers with technique. I was always much more of a you know, I listen and how I wasn't very good at explaining what I'm doing. And that's why I don't really teach now I don't think I'm very good at explaining to other people how to teach how to sing rather. But I describe it as singing operatically is like driving a Rolls Royce. And singing in a cabaret sense is like driving a Harley Davidson mechanics are kind of the same, but they're kind of different, but they're both at the top of the best machines, they can be in their space. So there are a lot of similarities but a lot of differences I guess. Look, I'm not the best person to speak about about technique. I do a lot of it just by feel and my sound. But I did have a really good teacher very early on who taught me a lot about support and and not making sure this does the work and not this and I think that has put me in good stead to be able to sing cabaret and have the range that I have because I'm not you know, doing damage by just singing everything from here. It's you know, it's like you know, lifting something big and using your legs and not just using your your arms, you know, it's kind of that thing. But yeah, look, I'm not great with explaining technically what I do.
Chelsea
So you heard the sound and you're able to kind of, you know, emulate that. Are you someone who loves to do impersonations? Do you hear different voices and want to match that as well?
Ali
A little bit, but I'm not like a you know, I have so much respect for, you know, Christina Bianco and Jess Robinson and there's some of these beautiful women I know who do fantastic impersonations. That's not me either. No, I don't know, look, I had a really fantastic couple of teachers very, very early on. Hartley Newman, Jeanette Russell, and then Teresa Carhill, all fantastic singers in their own right, who did a lot of kind of hands on teaching, this is where you should be feeling it and, you know, this is the space and, and no, from here. And, you know, I think just being in a room with a really good teacher, I'm just not very good at putting all of that knowledge into words and explaining it to someone else. But I can, you know, I could hear when someone's doing it wrong, you know, with operatically as well. There's a lot that goes on just with your facial muscles as well to do the sound again, just anything that takes the pressure off those tiny little, you know, vocal cords and get everything else to do the work. I don't I don't know a lot of people do ask me how you know how I think but differently about singing cabaret and singing opera. And I don't know. I just feel like when I sing opera, it's putting the car into overdrive. You know? The clutch in overdrive. Ah, there it is. So that's yeah,
Chelsea
So it feels more demanding?
Ali
I realized how much I think about singing is like driving I do like cars. I do really like driving a car.
Chelsea
But it's more physically demanding. singing opera?
Ali
Oh, yes, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. It's a full body experience singing opera. And I think one of the reasons why my operatic career didn't, you know, it went to a certain, you know, I'm pretty proud of what I've achieved in in opera circles, but vocally, it never went to that next level, I think because it is it, you have to just be so precious with that instrument. And it has to really be 100% of your time is protecting this. You're an elite athlete. And I think people forget with opera singers, that this is why they don't do operas on concurrent nights, you know, you have a night off, because it is like running a marathon, you need a day off to rest and recuperate and come back on. And I just don't think I had that level of physical dedication. You know, I loved going off and doing cabaret and stuff. But I don't think I could have had that if I had to choose one or the other. And I like too many things.
Chelsea
I'm really fascinated and in awe also of your whistle register. So for those who aren't across whistle register, it's those incredibly high high notes that maybe you remember. Yeah. Maybe you remember Minnie Riperton really launched that in contemporary music. Yeah. And of course, Mariah Carey is one of the best known. Get the finger exactly. finger out. How did you know and when did you know that you could get right up there? I mean,
Ali
well, funnily enough, you mentioned in that very lovely very long intro, introduction. It was I was touched. It felt like this is your life. I loved it. Yma Sumac. Yma Sumac was a 1950s Peruvian singer. I discovered her someone gave me in the 90s there was this trend of I think they opened up Capitol Records, or verve or I think both maybe and they got DJs to remix. You know, there was that little lounge where especially French DJs. Were re mixing old exotica. Yeah, exotica and jazz songs and there was a song called Mambo lounge or something and someone recorded it to MiniDisc. For me, I was very, very future forward in the 90s. And I listened to it but I didn't have what it was written on anything. So it was just kind of recorded for me. And there was a song on there that had that and I didn't know if it was a computer sample or it was an instrument, but it just captivated me and I just I just kept hearing that. And so I try and sing along to that. And at that stage I didn't know what it was and then over the years I'd hear snippets of it in ads or on TV and soundtracks and stuff. And I soon came to know that that was Yma Sumac so I wanted to try and sing like her. She actually didn't always use whistle tone as much she her her voice. She was like Jessica Pratt, she was like this coloratura soprano. She was able to kind of go up to that and then kind of mix into whistle tone. I'm not entirely sure what she was doing. But I emulated that doing whistle tone. I didn't know it was whistle tone. At the time, I was just making noises and realized I could still have intonation while doing it. And then I was doing a version of Oops, I did it again. And I was hosting the opening night gala at Edinburgh Fringe Festival one year, I was trying to think of something to do. And with the band, I said, Why don't we do a verse that sounds like it's sped up like a record sped up. And so I just remember practicing it in the shower. And I say, Yeah, I can totally do that. And so we did oops I did it again, like it like we used to do it as an old jazz number. And yeah, I did like a sped up record. And then I just sort of brought it into comedy act. So yeah, I did a version of an AC DC song that I did the guitar solo with, with the with whistle tone. And so it was really great to be able to, I created the show about Yma Sumac to actually sort of for that to come full circle. And then Lorelai was the first time ever, I've done an opera where whistle tone was written into the opera for me. So that was super cool.
Chelsea
That's incredible.
Ali
Yeah. And I think Kate and Connor D’Netto, who's also composing that piece is going to be writing some whistle tone into that as well.
Chelsea
I'm glad you mentioned Yma Sumac because that was right on my next question. I've been a huge fan of her work, actually. So I was really excited to see you develop a show paying homage to her incredible story. For those who don't know Yma Sumac was a Peruvian artist who Hollywood claimed was an Incan princess. And I believe the Peruvian government at the time supported that claim. But I don't think it was actually true. She came to prominence in the US in the golden age of exotic music in the 50s after she was discovered by a composer Les Baxter, who was quite a prolific artist at the time. And she was, at the time the highest selling Capitol Records artist. She was just amazing. And I think really underrecognized and the show that you produced when a Helpmann Award, it was shown at Adelaide cabaret festival, Sydney Opera House. Can you tell us about developing the work? what that experience was like?
Ali
Yeah, it was wonderful. I, I ended up reaching out to her former assistant in LA
Chelsea
How did you find this former assistant?
Ali
Oh just the internet, you know. So yeah, and, and started having conversations with him. And he was selling some of her things. He she left all her she kept everything and left everything. And he had actually had some of it stored in Dita Von Teese’s. She had a storage container. And she got all the best stuff she can fit into it to glorious woman that she is. But I, I sort of because of sort of kind of on the periphery of knowing Dita and this sort of stuff, I guess I found out about it, got into conversation with him said how I was really interested in singing some of her music and sent him some stuff. And we started talking a lot. I bought a whole bunch of things from him. And then he sent me this big, you know, we talked a lot and sent this email saying how he only had one box. And in fact, looking after it all was he didn't have much money and looking after it. He lived in a tiny flat. It was getting too much for him. And he had this one box that he had. And I said, Look, I'll just buy the box from you. And he said, Oh, it's just kind of there's a bits and pieces. It's all a bit random. And I was like that's totally fine. And my brother in law was living in LA at the time. And so I got it sent to his house. And then my mother in law was coming back to Australia and she had it in this rubbish bag, you know, brought it back in a suitcase and then brought it back. And I remember opening that bag. And I got this smell. It was like, I guess a bit of mothballs and stuff. But it was also just her I just suddenly was like, this is her in this bag and I pulled it out and there were there were costumes and there were little bits of broken jewelry and stuff. But there was also like shirts that she'd bought on tour in Japan and beautifully pressed silk, little blouses and a whole bunch of unopened support pants. Yes, I have totally worn a pair of them onstage. If that's what you're thinking, and all this sort of stuff. And that's what really prompted me to look into her life. And I ended up going over to see Damon I've been over there twice and been to his home and looked through all her old scrapbooks and found out a lot of stuff about her life that hadn't been talked about publicly before. And especially about her husband Moises Vivanco who he discovered her. He had a big sort of Peruvian traditional band in Lima in the 40s and her cousin although I don't think they were literally cousins, but I think growing up together was a dancer in the band and said My cousins, this fantastic voice brought her in and I think he soon saw the potential and so he formed the Inka Taky Trio, which was Cholita, the cousin and voices and Yma. And they went to to America and they went to New York first and were playing back rooms of, you know, delis and, you know, doing the hard yards and he invested in a sardine business. I mean, they really did. And I think they were just about to give it all up. And then Hollywood Bowl did with Les Baxter and Martin Denny did this big, exotic kind of world music show and asked her to be part of it. That was 1950. And she had three numbers. And that changed her life that really sort of kicked her into the stratosphere. And she, she had already gone over and recorded this first album with capital. And yes, she was she outsold Bing Crosby in the 50s. I mean, amazing. Thing is what I found out about it, though, is when I whenever I do the show, you know, you have to get your APRA rights. And so you do get to know who wrote these songs, and she's not listed as a writer on any of these songs. But you can tell by singing it, that this is vocalese that has been improvised largely by her. So her contribution to a lot of that music, I think did get underplayed. You know, Moises was very much a Svengali but there's a whole bunch. And I you know, my show is an hour long. So you know, I can't keep I could talk for a really long time about her life, but she had a baby in 1950. They had a young child, Charlie, but it turns out as it went on that Charlie was not her son, it was Cholitas. But they didn't want to ruin their chances of stardom. So she pretended that Charlie was hers. And they lived at this sort of family so I can only imagine what life was like at home and touring. Then she found out a few years later that her secretary was pregnant with twins did a paternity test a year later, and it was Moises and they divorced. And then they got this big Russian tour. The Khrushchev himself asked them to come and do this massive tour. They couldn't tour as a divorced couple. So they got married again and went on this tour. And so I can only imagine what was really going on in her world. There's, there's even this big in the paper, the LA Times an altercation where she goes to the house. And, you know, she's showing bruises and it was pretty dark times. And look, I think she was really fierce and a complete badass and she, you know, always fought she ended up doing this kind of prog rock album in the seventies called Miracles.
Chelsea
“Miracles”. Yeah, I've got that. Think Aztec Records here did a rerelease or some label did a rerelease, I've got a copy of it, and it's wild.
Ali
It’s wild, she even did you know, kind of, you know, German, electronica, sort of remix of one of her songs later on in the early 80s. And, you know, she always was trying to, to learn new things. And she really did think of herself as a serious artist though, and I think even the mambo record, she never rarely performed that onstage even that was the big album and she really performed it because she thought it was and it was it was this mismatch pastiche of world music. It wasn't really her thing you know, we all love it because it's kitsch and wonderful
Chelsea
Yeah, so fun. But that's, that was really common in that era that a lot of the vocalists they had no real say over what they recorded. I mean, Sarah Vaughn has a huge collection of tracks recorded around that time that was similarly put on a mambo record, put out a you know, this sort of Latin theme stuff that she was like, Well, why are you getting me to do this, but they're under contract and it's today you'll be you'll be singing this today, Sarah.
Ali
Totally. I mean, I also love all about Sarah Vaughn.
Chelsea
Same it's so fun to listen to, but I understand that they didn't feel like they had agency in it.
Ali
Totally. Yeah. And I think with Yma Sumac she really did. She loved it when she had traditional opera. Opera singers come to her shows and she she really spoke you know, you know, Maria Callas loves what I do, you know, she really wanted to be accepted by traditional opera singers she sang. She sang opera in in some of her shows, I think visitarte from from Traviata in there because she did from Tosca, she did sing that in her shows. But yeah, there's, it seems like a tragic life but also quite an extraordinary one. And, and you know, her music is still out there today. And it was a real joy doing when I did it at Sydney Opera House, the front two rows one night, flying these little Peruvian flags and I stopped the show and boy and I was like, and they were all Peruvians that heard about the show. And afterwards, they were just there was an older lady in tears, just saying I'm so happy that you've brought this Peruvian singer that we love and you know people don't know about her and they loved that we’d brought that back to life. So it's it was a real honor to kind of embody her on stage and tell her story and to feel like I was giving her a little bit of that agency back in a small way.
Chelsea
I've heard you say that Cabaret is the most intimate live art form. What do you mean by that?
Ali
Well, I think, you know, when I was at Adelaide cabaret festival, a lot of people ask what is cabaret? because no one really knows what it is, I actually think that it's chameleon nature is its beauty, and that it can be anything you want it to be, and I think cabaret lives between in the cracks between the genres. So you can find a piece that doesn't quite fit into dance. But it doesn't quite it's not really theater. It's not, something in between. It’s cabaret, you know. And I think the other thing that it doesn't have to have this, but it often does is no fourth wall. And I think there is a sense that you're having this direct dialogue with the audience. And whether that be whether you're singing opera, or jazz, or music theater, there's a sense that you're telling a little story about your life. And these songs are helping you tell it. Cabaret doesn't have to be biographical. Again, it's not one thing. It's a whole bunch of other things. The other thing I love about cabaret, and I said this actually, because when I got that Helpman for cabaret, beautiful Rhonda Burchmore and Joel Creasey. I adore them both. But they said exactly something like that, like, oh, what even is cabaret. And so I said, I decided this was time for a very small TED talk. And I said, the beauty of Cabaret is it can be anything you want. And I said to the audience, if any of you out there, don't see yourself represented on stage, you can get up in Cabaret and tell that story. If you don't see yourself represented, if you don't see your story being told on stage, Cabaret is the perfect place to do that. It's an affordable way of mounting a show, you know, cabaret can just be you and a backing track. It can be you in a pianist or a piano, accordion player or autoharp, you know, you can do anything you want it to be. So it is a really accessible place for performers to come in and tell their story. And I see quite often artists who wouldn't consider themselves like Lizzo for instance, she's a cabaret artist. I've seen her twice. And she creates an intimacy with the audience. She's telling story. She's talking to the audience. And I think for me, that is the difference. And I get annoyed now where I go see live music. And they just kind of like shuffle about between songs and go us so we wrote it. Anyway, okay, we're gonna start, you guys got the right key? Oh yeah ok go. And it really annoys me because I'm like, dude, put a show on get some everyone needs to learn a little bit from cabaret. I think, you know, I think, again, it's, you know, those moments, I remember someone telling me in opera, you know, great theater director said, it's not the moments where you're singing your Aria, that is the most important time to emote. It's the in between times, it's when you're reacting to something else that's going on stage. And I think those moments that's where cabaret lies, it's the in between, in between these worlds in between these moments in between emotions, in between the audience. And the sort of stage is this little space where cabaret, you can be vulnerable, and you can be intimate, and it's a I think it's just a fabulous genre. And I'm a massive champion of it.
Chelsea
Let's chat about your time directing Adelaide cabaret festival. I've heard you say that it was the hardest job of your life.
Ali
Yeah, I think I always say it was also the best was the hardest and the best. And I would have done that forever. If they'd let me. I love that job. It was going out and seeing lots of shows. And I made it a point to see almost every show that we booked, you know, I love going to see cabaret. So that was an absolute joy. And I loved you know, it was honestly like a kid in the candy store being able to kind of go and you know, I used to love going to the milk bar and getting my mixed sweets. And you'd go I'll have a mint lead. Yeah. Remember, that's what being artistic director of the cabaret festival was like, it was like, Okay, I want something classical. And then oh, no, it'd be really good to have something really kind of dark and dirty. Oh, and then why don't we have like a biographical show about oh, and then we have to have something and then it was like a mixed bag of sweets. And I loved every second of it. I throw myself into roles like that. So it was hard because, you know, I remember the first year Eddie and I just weren't happy with the cover they created we had this vision in mind it just wasn't happening. And so I was, Eddie was he might have been in the States but I was in Adelaide and so I got together with Cass Roul our designer in his car park opposite the festival center, and we got a whole bunch of old rope and props and lights from festival center. And in a 10 hour day we created this, we spelled out the word cabaret using bits that we found backstage, bits of rope and ladders and bits of set. And then we got the lighting department to come in and light and it was stunning. And it won a design award. And we loved it. But I'm, I'm very hands on. So I could have sat back and, you know, not been as hard work. But I loved being in part of every little pocket of that festival and it I still think it's the best festival in the world. It's it has, its glamorous, and you have this we had this backstage club then we created that was where all the performance used to come afterwards. And people just get up and sing with other performers. There was this real sense of collaboration and camaraderie that I don't know if you get at other festivals, you kind of do your thing in any go home, there was this real sense that everyone watched everyone else's shows. And it was just glorious. I just loved every second of it.
Chelsea
Would you have any advice for other artists that are interested or looking into moving into more behind the scenes roles, like curating or marketing or working at a festival?
Ali
Well, I think they should, I think, I think every artist should do a Fringe Festival, I found it a real eye opener, coming from an opera world where we had people, you know, I had someone dressing me and I had someone do my makeup. And I had the marketing team. And we have this and that my job was just to go there and sing, which was great. It was a real eye opener, and I think life changing to go and have to produce my own show. And do all of those jobs myself. Yeah. And I had to sell the tickets. And so it gave me a lot more respect for what goes on behind the scenes of a company like an opera company. You know, we used to kind of get annoyed, we're not getting enough marketing. We're not doing this. And then once you've done that yourself, and you know how hard that job is, you know, I worked at Niettas Quizlet for years in my summers. And Patricia O'Donnell, who was Niettas sister who ran that was a really hard taskmaster, and I was working the front desk, she would not let anyone work the front desk until they had worked in the kitchen. They had worked as a busboy they had worked in the bar, they had worked as a cleaner up in the rooms, we had to do all those jobs before we worked on that front desk, because she said you have to know when you're telling someone that they have to go and clean a room, you have to know what that involves. Yeah. And I think that's, I take that lesson into my life in the arts, I think if you're going to work in the arts, you have to know, it's great to get an experience, I don't think you have to do all those jobs, but you have to be a part of it. So you know what's involved. So instead of being on staging, getting annoyed that the lights are not pointing at you, you need to know what's involved what their job is, and what the enormity of that job and what that desk looks like, you don't have to do that job necessarily. But you have to have an understanding of what goes into it. And I think once you do that you have so much more respect for everything that goes on around you. I think performers sometimes think they really are it. And it's not. You’re the tip of the iceberg. And so I think anyone who wants to, and I think it's really essential to have to do things other than just performing, I think it makes you a better performer. So even if you don't want to be a curator or be, you know, an artistic director, I think it's really important to, to even if it's just sitting at the desk, while another show goes on which I used to do. Because I love hearing them call a show sitting backstage next, the stage manager and hear them call a theater show. It's fascinating. And you realize how much they do. I think it's really important to do that. So I think if you're going to do artistic direction or something, do just be interested, be interested in what's going on around you. And you know, the little the legs of the duck underneath the water, the all that work that's going on to make your job easier. That would be a big advice and just be interested in other artists. I think the best job I am at is as being an artistic director. I think I'm really good at that. And I think the reason why I'm good at it is because I'm really invested and interested in other artists I'm interested in what they do, what makes them tick, why an audience likes them. I love seeing ways in which I can get this artist and that artist to do something together. You know, that's just absolute joy for me. So I think I think it was probably just a life lesson be interested in what's going around you.
Chelsea
Yeah the curiosity. Also, for me directing festivals, particularly a genre type festival, like directing a jazz festival, I really wanted to kind of challenge and push boundaries of the ideas of what jazz means and bring different people into the fold and it's really exciting as an artist to be able to do that.
Ali
Yeah, and you don't have to break the model, but you can expand it, can't you, you don't have to kind of go, I'm gonna throw everything out there never done before, but you can expand it. It's like what we're talking about with opera. I think you don't have to just throw out all those old pieces. You can keep them but just expand it like it can be more it can be. Yeah. And I think it is really exciting, isn't it? And again, it goes back to that thing I was saying with the Katie Lang had talked about having constraints. It's actually I mean, it's almost worse if someone goes, you can do whatever you want. It's like, where do you even start with that? I think having parameters. So having a festival that is a particular genre or something is great. It's like, okay, that's that's where the goalpost is, what can we do here? You know, I think that's exciting.
Chelsea
I think so too. One of the things I really admire about you is your entrepreneurial spirit. I love that you've just created your own niche, you've created your own shows, you haven't asked for permission, or wait till someone says, we've made this thing for you. You've just gone I've got this idea. And I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. Where do you think you've got the confidence and the gumption to do that?
Ali
I think that's probably from from very early on. My parents were people who have just, you know, my mum and dad built houses, they did things for themselves, you know, they work for themselves. My dad was always making stuff my dad was always I remember, you know, if there was a door that he couldn't find that at, you know, a latch that worked for he would go out there and he had weld one he would make one and do it, you know, I think, never kind of just giving up and going, Oh, I can't find something that works. Just go okay, well, we'll make it work. Let's find something and adapt it. And so I see that spirit come through in my work in, in a lot of ways of just, you know, it's a little bit like that when people learn to be improvisers on stage. And it's that yes, and thing that people do. Yeah. And I remember that being in that carpark when we were making the cover of the Adelaide cabaret festival program. And I remember Kath, I was so excited to meet someone else who, who was like, he'd say, some crazy idea. And you'd be like, Okay, let's see if we can make that look, it might not work. But who would try it. You know, and I can't stand when, and there were people we worked with, sometimes he'd go, Okay, I need to create a sea and I reckon if we could find like, this, and that, and they'd go, Yeah, I can't find that. And I just be like, What, you're just gonna stop that conversation there. You know, as opposed to kind of going. That wouldn't. But what about this? And I think that has come from? Yeah, come from my parents who, that's what they did. They did it with houses. But it was really no different. It's the same kind of DIY kind of mentality, I think, and not afraid to get your hands dirty. You know, get in there and just do it yourself.
Chelsea
You've achieved so much in your career, and you're still working on multiple projects. And have
Ali
She's busy.
Chelsea
Yes. Yeah, you're busy. You're busy. What does success look like to you now?
Ali
Oh, success, for me is being able to say no to things. Now that I have kids. That's a really big leveler, as you will know, like you'd suddenly I used to say yes to kind of everything, because you like, this opportunity might not come again. I'm gonna say yes to it. It's really good to be able to now go actually, what is that? Do I need to do that? You know, sometimes I I'd say yes to things for my own ego, because you're like, it's so nice to be asked to do that. Yeah. And now it's like, is it just ego that I'm saying yes to that gig? Or do what is it really going to forward? My, you know, my process? Is that going to, you know, be so and I think success is being able to say no to stuff because obviously, that's a luxury. That, you can say no to stuff. So I think that would be success. But yeah, I don't think success is a finite thing. I think, you know, just being able to do what I do, I feel really, really lucky. The Arts is such a precarious industry to be in. So just to be able to still be doing what I do and not have to have taken a job to support that a job that kind of kills my soul to support my habit in the art. It's a self supporting habit. I think that success.
Chelsea
It's been so fantastic to chat to you. Thank you so much for being part of the control podcast.
Ali
Oh, my pleasure. It's been it's been great. You've, it's been great just to have a fantastic kind of intelligent conversation with just someone who's, you know, over the age of 11.
Chelsea
You're gonna perform a song for us.
Ali
I am actually I mentioned earlier you know, finding that whistle tone, doing an ACDC song and I, when I couldn't afford a band and I used to play my I used to play the autoharp, and then I found the electronic version of that, which is an omni chord. So, I'd love to actually show you a little bit about the instrument and sing you a song
Chelsea
please. Yes, show me. It even just looks cool. It's, it looks like something between a, like a Kitar. Mixed with a I don't know.
Ali
It's it's otherworldly. Yeah. I like to say that, it's it's from the 80s Or as I like to call it the future.
Chelsea
You know, it's kind of like a tennis racket. Like, it's sort of shape.
Ali
I can see that sort of. So it has a whole bunch of different different beats. Yeah, wicked beats in there. I mean, you'll see there's just so accurate. It's amazing. So here’s country and western. Yehaa, fantastic. An then we've got Latin, it’s pretty sexy
Chelsea
you do a bit of your Yma Sumac with this
Ali
No She would be so horrified. Disco No, we're not going to use any of those obviously for ACDC. Okay, we're going to use rock. But before I show you the rock and roll I just want to tell you a little bit of a story of why I'm doing this song because I found this clip on YouTube. And it was an ACDC song. And you know I love ACDC. I’m a good proud Ozzie. But it was pretty horrifying because it was a French Canadian lady singing and ACDC song and her Las Vegas show. It was Celine Dion. And if you think that's pretty bad. It gets worse. She made it into a duet with Anastasia. Wow, it's pretty special. It's my gift to you as you can find it on YouTube. She’s wearing a beige pants. So I actually love Celine she's wearing a beige pantsuit. She's playing air guitar on it. She's epic. So I'm gonna play this song. I just have to warn you though, that something about Anastasia's voice just came into my very soul and sometimes it just comes sort of spewing forth if it happens. I apologize. Okay, so I'm going to use the rhythm mark rock. It’s pretty hardcore pretty sure this is what ACDC always wanted okay prepare yourself it's pretty rock and roll.
